wasting money on 5.56 green tip ammo

[Podmonkey]

I wasn't trying to be facetious. I don't know what would make you think that. It was a serious question. I remember them adopting an open tipped round.

Anyway, upon further review, the rounds are different.

I just thought I remembered having a similar conversation with you elsewhere, and to be honest I consider you to be more knowledgeable on such matters than myself so I thought you might be pulling my leg. Blame my little brother, he thinks its funny to get me to drone on about stuff he already knows all about, so sometimes I get a little paranoid about it.

 

[dsdmmat]

Is it illegal to be in possession of just the AP bullets themselves?

Nope.

 

[Podmonkey]

Nope.

Well shit, there's the answer to @stuck in ny's implied dilemma then. On a related line of thought I find it extremely interesting that tungsten is not magnetic.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I just thought I remembered having a similar conversation with you elsewhere, and to be honest I consider you to be more knowledgeable on such matters than myself so I thought you might be pulling my leg. Blame my little brother, he thinks its funny to get me to drone on about stuff he already knows all about, so sometimes I get a little paranoid about it.

Lol. No sweat. It wasn't me though in a previous discussion. What I do know is from the internet and not through experience like some guys here who reload.

 

[Podmonkey]

Lol. No sweat. It wasn't me though in a previous discussion. What I do know is from the internet and not through experience like some guys here who reload.

Yeah weren't we talking about the Marine M27 and M855A1vs mk318? I thought the mk262 might have come up in all that. I am obviously mistaken, being a bear of very little brain after all.

 

[stuck in ny]

Is it illegal to be in possession of just the AP bullets themselves?

Pistol AP.

 

[Podmonkey]

Pistol AP.

Uh, if you can legally obtain M995 projectiles sans case, powder and primer......... use your imagination here.

 

[meketrefe]

Those are all in the past in the ballistics technology roadmap.
The 55gr fmj will fail in 1/2"-3/4" hot rolled steel just like the blackout and 7.62x39 so they are less than
desirable for tactical / military use in many situations.
The 62gr will punch through with a small hole but with no problems. Apply same principal to the hardest steel and glass you
can sometimes find in vehicle stopping tactics and other hard barrier situations.
To this end the MK318 offers the ideal balance between penetration in hard barrier and terminal performance.
IMO a better balanced and more versatile round than the now retired M855 and newer M855A1 service round.
For the average guy the M193 is cost effective for practice and save the good stuff for whatever.
If MK318 is not easily found the barnes 62gr TTSX is a great alternative. Also the winchester 64gr wiht the bonded
tips, a nice round for a patrol rifle.

 

[meketrefe]

also, I have some swiss surplus GWPat 90. In the FMJ category the quality and consistency of this 63gr bullet is hard to beat.
Very hard to find surplus these days.

 

[Podmonkey]

Those are all in the past in the ballistics technology roadmap.
The 55gr fmj will fail in 1/2"-3/4" hot rolled steel just like the blackout and 7.62x39 so they are less than
desirable for tactical / military use in many situations.
The 62gr will punch through with a small hole but with no problems. Apply same principal to the hardest steel and glass you
can sometimes find in vehicle stopping tactics and other hard barrier situations.
To this end the MK318 offers the ideal balance between penetration in hard barrier and terminal performance.
IMO a better balanced and more versatile round than the now retired M855 and newer M855A1 service round.
For the average guy the M193 is cost effective for practice and save the good stuff for whatever.
If MK318 is not easily found the barnes 62gr TTSX is a great alternative. Also the winchester 64gr wiht the bonded
tips, a nice round for a patrol rifle.

What about the gold dot 64 gr? Cause those are actually somewhat affordable.
Regarding the mk318, it's unfortunate that Big Army is going to bulldog the M855A1 through to universal acceptance.

 

[Marine Cpl]

What about the gold dot 64 gr? Cause those are actually somewhat affordable.
Regarding the mk318, it's unfortunate that Big Army is going to bulldog the M855A1 through to universal acceptance.

In my Google searches, pound for pound and dollar for dollar, I'd think the Gold Dot is the most cost effective.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Check out the 75 gr. Same price.

 

[meketrefe]

gold dot has the power point I think so those are GTG. great for hunting too. ...Although for hogs the 6.8spc is the ticket.
I believe the power max is the bonded one. Nosler has also some for moderate range bonded. The 60gr partition is bonded and
in two cores separated by the partition design.
This one has some fragmentation but they are more conistant than a cheap tumbling fmj.
This one one of the few youtubers who does a good job about terminal ballistics forensics.
Great all purpose and economic patrol round for those of you who carry a patrol rifle.

 

[Podmonkey]

In my Google searches, pound for pound and dollar for dollar, I'd think the Gold Dot is the most cost effective.

Yeah, looks pretty good. I've got about 400 rounds of it now. I'm not really sure how it fits into my ammo plans though. I still think I'm gonna stay with the 77gr OTM for the extended range and precision and I will buy m193 by the can whenever I see it for practice/training/plinking. Actually what I'm going to do is take the M193 out of the stripper clips and put the 77gr back in them. Then I will have 2k of em in clips in the cans with a strip Lula in each can for my grab and go ready stash. I'll probably keep the gold dots loaded in mags for home defense.

 

[meketrefe]

sorry... the protected point in the gold dot is the bonded one only.
that is a good one. less speed but better if presented with harder stuff.
I have not tried this one on hard barrier but I know it works from reports.
I invested in solid but otherwise I would go with one of these.

 

[meketrefe]

These are the power max bonded... But these are more expensive like all the bonded or solid.
Gold dot seems like a better price right now.

Winchester Power Max Bonded Ammo 223 Remington 64 Grain Protected

 

[Podmonkey]

Check out the 75 gr. Same price.

PSA is charging .50 a round for the 55gr and 64gr gold dots and .65 for the 75gr, which are currently out of stock. And because I keep getting PMs, which is fine, I do now live in Pennsylvania and that is why I'm getting shipping. I know, I'm teasing, I'm being an asshole and I feel baaad. Really I do. So bad I might put some of my Gold Dot 223 stash up for a Karma at some point. If y'all won't hold it against me.

 

[Marine Cpl]

PSA is charging .50 a round for the 55gr and 64gr gold dots and .65 for the 75gr, which are currently out of stock. And because I keep getting PMs, which is fine, I do now live in Pennsylvania and that is why I'm getting shipping. I know, I'm teasing, I'm being an asshole and I feel baaad. Really I do. So bad I might put some of my Gold Dot 223 stash up for a Karma at some point. If y'all won't hold it against me.

Don't feel bad. I can mail order to Florida and have it shipped back to me.

If you do, load up on those 75's. I think for your purposes, (defense at less than 200 yards), barrier blind loads like that that do well on windshields that stay together are your best bet.

 

[meketrefe]

This is the partition from nosler. Expensive but great design. If you find mk318 surplus get it because will be cheaper
otherwise look into these bonded or the tsx if your life depends on it.



I found this video. Nothing scientific but it gives an idea why the obsolete 55gr, AK, blackout do not make the cut ....

And he misspoke because the SS109 is not an AP round. It is simply a stouter design moving a fast speeds.
This ammo in military version is retired from service in US forces so expect much better results from the more modern ammo.
I find the Barnes to provide a great balance but those are more expensive even reloading. Make industrial water heater baseball size
exits. There are other solids that can be found in bulk that also perform great.
I have to say if you want to shoot some chit start by staying away specially with the russian cheap ammo, bimetal stuff
ricochets like crazy. So they should be starting saying that.
Glass can be even harder depending on the angle and type.


and the size of the hole on the steel means it goes easier or hader but it doesn't say about the actual terminal effect lets say someone behind.

 

[Marine Cpl]

This is the partition from nosler. Expensive but great design. If you find mk318 surplus get it because will be cheaper
otherwise look into these bonded or the tsx if your life depends on it.



I found this video. Nothing scientific but it gives an idea why the obsolete 55gr, AK, blackout do not make the cut ....

And he misspoke because the SS109 is not an AP round. It is simply a stouter design moving a fast speeds.
This ammo in military version is retired from service in US forces so expect much better results from the more modern ammo.
I find the Barnes to provide a great balance but those are more expensive even reloading. Make industrial water heater baseball size
exits. There are other solids that can be found in bulk that also perform great.
I have to say if you want to shoot some chit start by staying away specially with the russian cheap ammo, bimetal stuff
ricochets like crazy. So they should be starting saying that.
Glass can be even harder depending on the angle and type.

I myself like the Barnes but you can't beat that 75 gr Gold Dot's price of about 50 cents a round.

 

[meketrefe]

I myself like the Barnes but you can't beat that 75 gr Gold Dot's price of about 50 cents a round.

I agree. It is a though call. I don't like that it gives too much penetration in soft media but might be ok.
hard to say w/o close examination and real life results.

 

[meketrefe]

I forgot there is one 55gr fmj that works very well even with modern twists
and for whatever tumbles like crazy that is the norinco 55gr surplus.
Very hard to find these days and not a substitute for all purpose with hard barrier
but for whatever reason tumbles right away and beats any other surplus fmj at that.
Not superior quality but still reliable and nice discovery for those who want a 55gr
to work as originally designed. Nathan from ballistics studies used it in some goats
and they were brutal.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I agree. It is a though call. I don't like that it gives too much penetration in soft media but might be ok.
hard to say w/o close examination and real life results.

Why is 16 to 20 inches too much?

 

[Podmonkey]

M193 can punch steel too.
Really, I think the M855 is a poor round that was developed with a very narrow performance parameter and suffers from inconsistent terminal performance. Damn Belgians. For most civilian uses I think the M193 is better. And as we have established there are better choices than either and I'm stocking two of em. But M193 will get'r done on the cheap if one needed to get a crash ammo stockpile done.

 

[meketrefe]

Why is 16 to 20 inches too much?

It means pass through on a human. It means energy wasted. And again, that might be ok if the wounding is consistent.
Hard to say w/o more real world data.

 

[meketrefe]

Mild steel, hot rolled steel, heat threted steel... all seem similar but very different things.
Same thing with glass. Automotive glass has been evolving too that along with the shallow angles
of modern vehicles is crazy hard.
Things are evolving ... we need to evolve with them too.
I don't see anything wrong with stock piling on 55gr fmj but why not 62gr fmj that give more momentum?
hornady 75gr is also a great tactical round not the ideal for hard barrier but will have a lot more accuracy
and momentum in long distance.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It means pass through on a human. It means energy wasted. And again, that might be ok if the wounding is consistent.
Hard to say w/o more real world data.

I see what you are saying but I'm a firm believer in sufficient penetration. I'd take penetration over the often debated energy every time.

Penetration is ideal for hunting. Why not on humans?

 

[Podmonkey]

I'm just glad the Gold Dot 223 (though I belive it's loaded to 5.56 spec, Meke?) is being offered and a halfway sane price. I will not buy 5.56/223 at a dollar or more a round, that is insane!

 

[Podmonkey]

Mild steel, hot rolled steel, heat threted steel... all seem similar but very different things.
Same thing with glass. Automotive glass has been evolving too that along with the shallow angles
of modern vehicles is crazy hard.
Things are evolving ... we need to evolve with them too.
I don't see anything wrong with stock piling on 55gr fmj but why not 62gr fmj that give more momentum?
hornady 75gr is also a great tactical round not the ideal for hard barrier but will have a lot more accuracy
and momentum in long distance.

I'm not going to bother with M855 as I've got the 64gr Gold Dots for barrier penetration and the 77gr OTM for long range and maximum soft target terminal effect.

 

[meketrefe]

I see what you are saying but I'm a firm believer in sufficient penetration. I'd take penetration over the often debated energy every time.

Penetration in hard target decreases with distance while increases in soft target.
This is one of the problems wiht bimetal fmjs that might shoot and pin hole wounding w/o even noticing.
Some russian ammo is terrible in this area, even soft points. Even looking potentially ok by design they quickly crap.
It doesn't mean there are not some good ones but always look for that delicate balance. At least with hunting
if we strech the distance we might have the opportunity to catch some bone to help the bullet.
A lot of penetration at close ranges might be an indication of something more challenging downrange.
IMO These tests should be conducted at 3 distances 50, 150 and 300 yards or so.