What do you think about the .380 as a defense round?

[Marine Cpl]

This can be argued to the end of time. Bottom line is its gets the job done.

Yes. It does with the right ammo. The issue is not the caliber. It's the ammo.

I would feel 100% comfortable using a .380 pistol with a flat nosed FMJ or with one of the few hollow point rounds loaded with the Hornady XTP bullet that actually expands and penetrates to acceptable levels.

 

[mickw]

For a good while, I contemplated getting either a G43 or G42 for summer carry. As much as I leaned towards staying in the 9mm family with the G43 (I already have the G26 and G17), I was drawn to the G42 being slightly smaller and supposedly an absolute pleasure to shoot. I still haven't gotten either pistol, but if I decide to go with the G42, I think I would be getting the Lehigh Defense XP .380ACP round. It seems to have done great in the testing (even better than the XTP bullet), especially thru some layers of denim. More penetration, bigger wound tracks, etc. The only issue I can see, would be whether or not the rounds feed well into the G42 because of their unorthodox shape with the nose cut outs.

 

[Mr. terzmo]

380 hollow point is decent. I bought a Ruger LCP and it so small it fits in my pocket without showing.

 

[Phazer]

Just watch the Ammo Quest 380 wrap-up:

 

[HighlandLofts]

Been carrying my colt
Mustang pocketlite since the early 90s. Great pocket gun.

But have you shot anything that is close to a possible threat since carrying your 380 since the
90s?

Personally I'll stick with the larger proven calibers.

 

[Fezzik]

For those of you who do choose the FMJ .380 as a carry load: which do you use?

 

[Marine Cpl]

For those of you who do choose the FMJ .380 as a carry load: which do you use?

I don't carry .380 bit if I did and was limited to ball ammo, it would be a flat nosed bullet that crushes tissue rather than pierce it like a round nosed bullet does. Any flat nosed would do.



If I wanted a hollow point, I would go with one of the few below that penetrate the FBI minimum.

Those are any cartridges loaded with the Hornady XTP bullet.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

But have you shot anything that is close to a possible threat since carrying your 380 since the
90s?
.

Uuuummmm? That would be no.

I have not shot any possible threats with any caliber since the 70s.

But i shot a dear (non threat i might add) with a 5.7x28 in the chest with my ps90......and "they" say it is only has 22 mag ballistics..... Same hole as the 45acp shot (1911 ) i took 15 min later. Same shot placement. Same hole size. Same result.

 

[Podmonkey]

The .380 is generally considered the minimum level effective cartridge, but I think the real problem with it is the availability of small 9mm pistols that are usurping the .380s role. I personally don't see much need to go smaller than the Shield or equivalent guns. I am not a fan of pocket carry, I keep too much other stuff in my pockets. If I were to drop down in size I think I would drop way down to a tiny .32 pistol, like a Seecamp or some such. Go ahead flame me.

 

[FLA45fan]

Ok, I'm in . . . The .380 is about the minimum that I carry, a Bodyguard loaded with Federal HydroShocks. This gives about 200 ft lbs of energy and decent penetration. I think it's about 11-12 inches. 7 shots at 21 feet fast goes into a 5-6 inch group for me. I prefer 9mm with its approximate 350 ft lbs of energy and deeper penetration in a slightly larger package like a Glock 43 (picking one up this week.) I had an XD-S 45 that I traded because I had a chance to fire all of them and the XDS came in last for fast fire accuracy. The 43 came in first and the Bodyguard a close second.

 

[Cooolone]

7 shots at 21 feet fast goes into a 5-6 inch group for me.

People don't get it, that no matter the caliber, this is all that matters... A 2"-3" group would be better, but all in all, with that proficiency in aim, your probability of hitting an organ, nerve center, etc., are much greater and THEREFORE, more effective. I lmao with any other argument concerning calibers...

: )

 

[eagleridge357]

380 dead is just like 9mm dead.

More deaths have been caused by bats and fists than by 380 fmj or hp. Choose a fist over 380 always. A good strong kick to the balls also works wonders.

 

[eagleridge357]

Been carrying my colt
Mustang pocketlite since the early 90s. Great pocket gun.

The newer XSP is actually a better design. I carry in pocket mostly and the XSP is great. Outside pocket, 9mm or 45

 

[Eddie Gunks]

More deaths have been caused by bats and fists than by 380 fmj or hp. Choose a fist over 380 always. A good strong kick to the balls also works wonders.

Gotta love statistics. They can say whatever you want them to say.

I would be willing to be there are FAR more fist fights than gun fights. So that alone could skew the "statistic"

 

[Phauxtoe]

Good ammo
Good gun
Good to go!

 

[dsdmmat]

Was looking at the Kimber and Sig 380s today. Very tempting.

 

[rpf427]

both great choices

 

[FLA45fan]

People don't get it, that no matter the caliber, this is all that matters... A 2"-3" group would be better, but all in all, with that proficiency in aim, your probability of hitting an organ, nerve center, etc., are much greater and THEREFORE, more effective. I lmao with any other argument concerning calibers...

: )

Thank you! I used to preach this in my CWP class in Florida. You're not trying to shoot the wings off a fly at 50 feet; you're trying to put 2-3-4 or 5 shots into a bad guy at social distances. If you can cover the group with your hand, center mass, then you stand a decent chance of winning the encounter. Also keeping in mind, the bad guy is probably attacking you with a fair amount of force, so your accuracy is going to be highly affected. One handed shooting is also going to be the high percentage of encounters. If you're not practicing a fair amount of shooting this way, your skills will be diminished. Yes, proper accuracy technique is imperative to the drill, but evasion is just as important. I can't remember the famous coroner's name in California, but when asked about handgun caliber, he replied that it wasn't the size as much as the number of times the suspect was hit to bring him down.

 

[Truebeliever]

Thank you! I used to preach this in my CWP class in Florida. You're not trying to shoot the wings off a fly at 50 feet; you're trying to put 2-3-4 or 5 shots into a bad guy at social distances. If you can cover the group with your hand, center mass, then you stand a decent chance of winning the encounter. Also keeping in mind, the bad guy is probably attacking you with a fair amount of force, so your accuracy is going to be highly affected. One handed shooting is also going to be the high percentage of encounters. If you're not practicing a fair amount of shooting this way, your skills will be diminished. Yes, proper accuracy technique is imperative to the drill, but evasion is just as important. I can't remember the famous coroner's name in California, but when asked about handgun caliber, he replied that it wasn't the size as much as the number of times the suspect was hit to bring him down.

You are right on the money.

One handed shooting is rarely stressed anymore. The other hand might be busy fending off the attack.

Most street shootings are less than 7 yards and even closer. Many are shot after fists were thrown at each other. The FBI penatration standand was made for shots from all angles to the body. A.380 straight on is definitely a killer round.
The LAPD approved .380 for off duty/back up guns for its officers. It's a "gun culture " department. They know it is effective enough for an officer to defend themselves in an off duty situation. They even picked a round that didn't do well( penetrate) in the Internet forum round testing I have seen (such as shooting the bull) . Why? I don't know for sure but it wasn't cost( the officers have to supply their own rounds). I guess they think it's an effective round for what the gun is intended to do

 

[Marine Cpl]

You are right on the money.

One handed shooting is rarely stressed anymore. The other hand might be busy fending off the attack.

Most street shootings are less than 7 yards and even closer. Many are shot after fists were thrown at each other. The FBI penatration standand was made for shots from all angles to the body. A.380 straight on is definitely a killer round.
The LAPD approved .380 for off duty/back up guns for its officers. It's a "gun culture " department. They know it is effective enough for an officer to defend themselves in an off duty situation. They even picked a round that didn't do well( penetrate) in the Internet forum round testing I have seen (such as shooting the bull) . Why? I don't know for sure but it wasn't cost( the officers have to supply their own rounds). I guess they think it's an effective round for what the gun is intended to do

I'm not saying the .380 isn't effective with the right ammo, but Police Departments aren't known for making wise decisions when it comes to equipment.

The Federal Air Marshalls changed to .357 Sig for one reason only. That reason was because the new Director of the FAM Service was a former Secret Service Agent and used the .357 SIG while employed in the Service where that round is crucial in the environment they work in where shooting through barriers such as car doors, windshield, ect is very likely. Some habits die hard. Many FAMS complained about the sidearm choice due to recoil, noise, flash, and concussion in such a confined environment along with their mandatory dress policy of being clean shaven and wearing suits and ties that singled them out. The new Director of the FAMS would hear nothing of it until much later when articles came out online of his Marshals being made out.

The NYPD themselves carried ball rounds for many years due to someone at the top whether Civilian or Chief that was leary of such a devastating scary round. To this day they outfit their Glocks with 12 lbs triggers.

The NYS Courts mandate that their officers carry ANY 147 gr no matter what the brand regardless if it penetrates enough or gets clogged with clothing and acts as a FMJ.

My point is that Police Departments make choices based on personal decisions, contracts, ect and not always based on testing.

The FBI spends an inordinate amount of money on testing ammo and will not authorize it's Agents in carrying a .380. They are the Gold Standard when it comes to this.

Is a .380 enough? Probably. Is a 9mm enough? Probably as well. It all depends on the round chosen. You wouldn't carry a 9mm load such as the Winchester Silvertip or one of the boutique loads such as the RIP, or a .40 S&W frangible load that fail to perform in testing in regards to penetration so why would you carry any old .380 hollow point that is proven to not penetrate at least 12 inches?

There are .380 rounds that do penetrate the required 12 inches. Why anyone would carry one that does not penetrate at least 12 inches of beyond me.

Under that logic, loading your AR with cheapest .40 gr varmint load or loading your Shotgun with the cheapest Birdshot instead of a slug that penetrates and walking into the woods to bag a deer is the same. Nobody here would do that but when it comes to picking a round that performs flawlessly in .380 for the defense of their lives, they do so.

I would most definitely carry a .380 for self defense if my attire didn't allow anything larger but if I did, it would be loaded with either Fiocchi Extremas, Precision Ones, Hornady Customs (Not Critical Defense), Federal Hydroshocks (Not Federal HST), Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator, or a Flat Nosed FMJ.

There's no way in hell I would carry a .380 round that may or may not reach vitals or plugs up with clothing and acts as a FMJ when I wanted expansion to limit overpenetration.

 

[Phazer]

Someone mentioned follow-up shots on target. Well, the other day I was playing with my wife's Browning Black Label Pro 1911-380 (Yes...she love's 1911 triggers and form factors, so the 85% sized 1911 is great for her). I was testing a few new magazines and I was doing rapid mag dumps at the range. I have to admit, with this pistol's 4.25" barrel and 380acp loads, I was able to shoot really fast and still keep 4-5" groups at 7 yards (where carefully aimed and not-rushed shots were in a 1-2" group). I was able to get my follow-up shots on target much faster with this pistol than with my Glock 43 or Glock 19 due to the lesser recoil and muzzle flip.

Sure, the 1911-380 feels like a toy. But, I sure wouldn't want to stand downrange of 9 rapidly fired 380acp rounds.

1911-380 Black Label

1911-380 on top of a regular 1911 in 45ACP.

 

[Truebeliever]

Normally you would be right about selection just based on a department 's choice because of politics. I don't think this is the case. I'm choosing the ammo based on them for right now until I can get some Lehigh rounds to test fire.

As far as the NYPD choice in 9mm. That was forced on them. The commissioner and the guy in charge at the range wanted to keep revolvers but a state law was about to be passed to force them to take it. They accepted it only to head off the law and chose the 9mm WWB 115 grain because of cost and "realibality " issues. Housing and transit used hollowpont until they merged with the NYPD. The CO of the range hated the semi auto and that's one of the reasons why WWB was chosen. It changed when Diallo was shot and the richocets were determined to be a contributing factor as to why so many rounds were fired.

The 12 lb trigger was an attempt to deal with accidental discharges instead of better training. The first trigger was NY1 then a few Accidental discharges( yes... accidental discharge instead of Negligent discharge because that what they were called back then) and they changed the trigger pull to NY2

In fact , it was a different department where they got the idea for NY2. I won't mention which one but it's downstate.

A .380 in a 3 or 4 inch is a marginal self defense round as the .38 in a 2 inch snub revolver but often effective enough.i would have no problems carrying a .380 if my dress code for that night wouldn't accommodate one of my 9mm or 40 cal without being noticeable. If I had a job were carry would be frowned apon but not illegal, .380 might be just right.

If it was a choice of round in the same gun frame such as the the LC9 and the LC380. Of course I would choose the 9mm. The question of penetration would be off the table as opposed to expansion, knockdown power etc arguments.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If it was a choice of round in the same gun frame such as the the LC9 and the LC380. Of course I would choose the 9mm. The question of penetration would be off the table as opposed to expansion, knockdown power etc arguments.

Give this article a read. It emphasizes why penetration is more important than expansion and brings to light the myth of knockdown power through Kinect Energy in slow velocity handgun bullets. It is written by an FBI agent from Quantico with the Firearms Training Unit with multiple references from experts like Dr. Fackler.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...mcp2cZC9S65MOVVXQ&sig2=ypLtCPOMFbNWFer2x2br3Q

 

[dsdmmat]

I'm not saying the .380 isn't effective with the right ammo, but Police Departments aren't known for making wise decisions when it comes to equipment.

The Federal Air Marshalls changed to .357 Sig for one reason only. That reason was because the new Director of the FAM Service was a former Secret Service Agent and used the .357 SIG while employed in the Service where that round is crucial in the environment they work in where shooting through barriers such as car doors, windshield, ect is very likely. Some habits die hard. Many FAMS complained about the sidearm choice due to recoil, noise, flash, and concussion in such a confined environment along with their mandatory dress policy of being clean shaven and wearing suits and ties that singled them out. The new Director of the FAMS would hear nothing of it until much later when articles came out online of his Marshals being made out.

The NYPD themselves carried ball rounds for many years due to someone at the top whether Civilian or Chief that was leary of such a devastating scary round. To this day they outfit their Glocks with 12 lbs triggers.

The NYS Courts mandate that their officers carry ANY 147 gr no matter what the brand regardless if it penetrates enough or gets clogged with clothing and acts as a FMJ.

My point is that Police Departments make choices based on personal decisions, contracts, ect and not always based on testing.

The FBI spends an inordinate amount of money on testing ammo and will not authorize it's Agents in carrying a .380. They are the Gold Standard when it comes to this.

Is a .380 enough? Probably. Is a 9mm enough? Probably as well. It all depends on the round chosen. You wouldn't carry a 9mm load such as the Winchester Silvertip or one of the boutique loads such as the RIP, or a .40 S&W frangible load that fail to perform in testing in regards to penetration so why would you carry any old .380 hollow point that is proven to not penetrate at least 12 inches?

There are .380 rounds that do penetrate the required 12 inches. Why anyone would carry one that does not penetrate at least 12 inches of beyond me.

Under that logic, loading your AR with cheapest .40 gr varmint load or loading your Shotgun with the cheapest Birdshot instead of a slug that penetrates and walking into the woods to bag a deer is the same. Nobody here would do that but when it comes to picking a round that performs flawlessly in .380 for the defense of their lives, they do so.

I would most definitely carry a .380 for self defense if my attire didn't allow anything larger but if I did, it would be loaded with either Fiocchi Extremas, Precision Ones, Hornady Customs (Not Critical Defense), Federal Hydroshocks (Not Federal HST), Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator, or a Flat Nosed FMJ.

There's no way in hell I would carry a .380 round that may or may not reach vitals or plugs up with clothing and acts as a FMJ when I wanted expansion to limit overpenetration.

. I appologize I misread your post, but this is a good comparison for those who are looking at options.
Handgun Cartridge Power Chart - Condensed Version

 

[Marine Cpl]

. I appologize I misread your post, but this is a good comparison for those who are looking at options.
Handgun Cartridge Power Chart - Condensed Version

I missed it.

 

[Jmac00]

I only carry my LCP when I expect to be in HTH (hand to hand ) combat. I figure initially if I need a gun it will be very close quarters, possibly a fist fight ( and i have arthritis in my knuckles, so hitting someone with a closed fist is out of the question) Im going to have to push people off, then draw. At very close range, six 95 grain projectiles in rapid succession should do the trick. If it doesn't....well Im going to be in big trouble, might have to switch to the blade real fast

 

[dsdmmat]

Any gun is better than no gun.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Any gun is better than no gun.

Agreed. Any gun is better than no gun if you don't have a choice.

If you have a choice, then any gun that works properly if better than one that doesn't.

 

[Jmac00]

Any gun is better than no gun.

LOL, whats that old story.....a Sheriff was at church wearing his side arm and a parishioner asked "why are you wearing a gun sheriff, are you expecting trouble" The Sheriff responded "NO madam, If i was expecting trouble, i would have brought my rifle"

 

[FLA45fan]

By the way, the medical examiner's name is Dr. Vincent Di Maio and is from Texas, not California. He said it was the location of the wounds and number of times hit that had the best results.
So do I carry a .380? Yup, when I can't carry something bigger. Usually loaded with Federal HydroShocks (the lower recoil load, which has good numbers). I am hoping to transition to the Glock 43 and Federal HST 150 gr Micro loads in 380 Magnum! Ya know, 9mm! I am sure that I will miss my XDS 45 (was always on the quest for the smallest, lightest .45 and that was it, without a doubt) but it still comes down to which I can shoot better. I have great respect for the XD platform but that's another thread.