What is the legal consensus on the juggernaut hellfighter kit in NY?

[spat]

Huh? Not following. Unless you mean a standard rifle with a magazine in it cannot accept a detachable magazine. It can once removed. There is no level on the removal process required to be able to accept another one. That was removed from the final draft that was passed into law.

You are correct that a literal interpretation would say that a standard rifle with a magazine inserted cannot accept a second magazine.

We all know that the courts would stretch that to include any rifle that *through normal operation* can accept a magazine. That would allow for the removal of the existing magazine before the "cannot accept a new one" test. But only removal by normal operation.

No amount of cutting, sawing, heating, etc could ever be considered "normal operation".

 

[Jem45472]

Does a player cup with a tiny hole in it accept water even though it doesn’t hold it in? Does a wire accept electricity even though it does not hold the electricity in it? Can an air intake accept air even though it does not hold the air in it? Nowhere anywhere with anything is there a requirement that in order to accept something, whatever is accepting it has to hold it in place.

Didn't say anything about "accept". What I said was to be considered detachable, it also must first be considered "attachable".. A standard magazine is not attachable in my lower because there is nothing there to hold it after my maglock is removed.

 

[Chevusa]

Fixed mag rifles are sold everyday by licensed firearms dealers. End of story. They pass the test. Otherwise the dealers would be closed and the owners would be in prison. No further defining or opinions necessary. It is what it is. Don't like it? Don't buy one.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Didn't say anything about "accept". What I said was to be considered detachable, it also must first be considered "attachable".. A standard magazine is not attachable in my lower because there is nothing there to hold it after my maglock is removed.

But it still accepts that magazine no? And if you let go of it, it detaches. Nowhere does it say that in other to detach it must attach. All it says is that it must accept a magazine that detaches.

In plain English it is accepting a magazine into the magazine well when you put it in and hold it. Whether it locks in place or not is irrelevant. It still accepted it. When you let go, it detached and fell out from the magazine well allowing your rifle to accept another one.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Fixed mag rifles are sold everyday by licensed firearms dealers. End of story. They pass the test. Otherwise the dealers would be closed and the owners would be in prison. No further defining or opinions necessary. It is what it is. Don't like it? Don't buy one.

Standard bullet button equipped rifles were were also sold. Rifles with the MR2 were also sold. In 2 separate cases, the gun shop owners faced charges for that. Albion NY for the bullet button rifles and the other was Jackson for the MR2. I can’t remember where his gun shop was.

My point is that many gun shops sell things that they think are legal but aren’t. One gun shop by me sold those AR rifles that aren’t a rifle nor a pistol. Now they have tags on them that say for LEO only. Yet 20 miles south, they still sell those Firearm/ Others.

Shops used to sell rifles with the Tier 5 bolt interrupter. Now they don’t. Why? Some police agency got to them. Everything changed based on time whim of a police department.

 

[spat]

But it still accepts that magazine no? And if you let go of it, it detaches. Nowhere does it say that in other to detach it must attach. All it says is that it must accept a magazine that detaches.

In plain English it is accepting a magazine into the magazine well when you put it in and hold it. Whether it locks in place or not is irrelevant. It still accepted it. When you let go, it detached and fell out from the magazine well allowing your rifle to accept another one.

A magazine that doesn't lock into place hasn't been "accepted". No reasonable person or court would suggest otherwise.

Does a standard AK "accept" AR magazines ? I could certainly hold one in place.

 

[Chevusa]

A magazine that doesn't lock into place hasn't been "accepted". No reasonable person or court would suggest otherwise.

Does a standard AK "accept" AR magazines ? I could certainly hold one in place.

Why bother responding at this point? It’s like trying to explain that the earth isn’t flat. Let him believe what he wants. The joke is on him.

 

[Marine Cpl]

A magazine that doesn't lock into place hasn't been "accepted". No reasonable person or court would suggest otherwise.

Does a standard AK "accept" AR magazines ? I could certainly hold one in place.

So I guess we can have standard rifles now with this amazing loophole. Just pull out your magazine release entirely.

 

[spat]

So I guess we can have standard rifles now with this amazing loophole. Just pull out your magazine release entirely.

Yes.

Disabling your magazine release would produce a compliant rifle regardless of other features.

 

[BDinPutnam]

If memory serves Jackson got jacked up for things besides the MR2, shoddy recordkeeping if I recall correctly.

 

[Saltwater60]

The epoxy is over kill but makes some people feel good. As I see it, once you start taking tools to my rifle you are changing what it is and that’s on you. Not me. Remember, the word “permanent” exists nowhere.
It’s no different than taking a hand tool and sawing off my barrel and making is a short barrel rifle. You used tools and changed what I had.

I put plumbers putty in the hole first so a drill bit and an Allen key will get me to where I need to go if it ever comes to that without any problems. Easy peasy!!

 

[Marine Cpl]

Yes.

Disabling your magazine release would produce a compliant rifle regardless of other features.

So what’s the issue? Why isn’t it more popular?

 

[spat]

So what’s the issue? Why isn’t it more popular?

That is probably the second most popular compliance method besides featureless. Maybe 1st. What are you talking about ?

 

[Marine Cpl]

That is probably the second most popular compliance method besides featureless. Maybe 1st. What are you talking about ?

I’m talking about no magazine release period. Just insert a magazine into the mag well and hold it.

 

[BDinPutnam]

 

[spat]

I’m talking about no magazine release period. Just insert a magazine into the mag well and hold it.

Oh, I thought you meant disabling it so that it wouldn't function, not removing it entirely.

I think the reason a compliance method that requires you to hold the magazine in place your self isn't more popular should be self evident.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Oh, I thought you meant disabling it so that it wouldn't function, not removing it entirely.

I think the reason a compliance method that requires you to hold the magazine in place your self isn't more popular should be self evident.

Well that’s what I’ve been talking about being that someone here said that it needs to lock in place to have the ability to accept.

 

[spat]

Well that’s what I’ve been talking about being that someone here said that it needs to lock in place to have the ability to accept.

It needs not only the ability to lock in place, it needs the ability to be detached without any "gunsmithing". The first goes to the ability to accept and the second goes to the detachable magazine.

The ability to accept a fixed magazine is not a forbidden feature.

 

[Chevusa]

It needs not only the ability to lock in place, it needs the ability to be detached without any "gunsmithing". The first goes to the ability to accept and the second goes to the detachable magazine.

The ability to accept a fixed magazine is not a forbidden feature.

It’s almost like it needs to ... attach in order to ... detach Stop wasting your time. A legal scholar he is not!

 

[PutnamCharlie]

Just curious does anyone PERSONALLY know anyone that has been arrested for this north of the city? If so were they prosecuted for it. Not being a wise ass just curious. I know there have been safe act arrests but I usually see it for over sized mag's.

 

[Marine Cpl]

So there you have it. An AR with no magazine release where it can fall out cannot accept one so it is good to go. Because a regular magazine release cannot ever be put back in the rifle to be able to accept another one. It no longer has that ability. Ever.


And an AR with a standard magazine release or one with a bullet button can also never have the ability to accept another magazine that can be detached. Ever.

I learned something today.

 

[spat]

So there you have it. An AR with no magazine release where it can fall out cannot accept one so it is good to go. Because a regular magazine release cannot ever be put back in the rifle to be able to accept another one. It no longer has that ability. Ever.


And an AR with a standard magazine release or one with a bullet button can also never have the ability to accept another magazine that can be detached. Ever.

I learned something today.

The inability to do something right now does not mean the inability to do it forever.

A rifle without a working magazine catch does not *currently* have the ability to accept a magazine.

If you repair or reinstall the magazine catch, then it will have that ability again.

Why is this such a hard concept ?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Just curious does anyone PERSONALLY know anyone that has been arrested for this north of the city? If so were they prosecuted for it. Not being a wise ass just curious. I know there have been safe act arrests but I usually see it for over sized mag's.

There was one case against a person named Perkins here in NY where he had AR’s with the MR2s. They charged him with a few counts of Assault Weapons and his argument was that they had fixed magazines. At the Grand Jury trial, he quoted out of state laws on what makes a fixed magazine detachable and it was throw out by the court because it didn’t apply here. It was scheduled to go to trial and he appealed. An appellate court reviewed the case and also ruled that out of state definitions did not apply and the charges against him for the assault weapons were valid but threw out the assault weapons charges because an illegal search was conducted to acquire the weapons. They wrote in their footnotes that the charges were valid to stand for the assault weapons but no determination can be made if MR2’s makes a magazine not detachable since it was thrown out due to the illegal search.

Had the search not been illegal, he would have been tried for the rifles and he would have had to play the dance that everyone here likes to play with words on what makes a magazine detachable to a jury.

People v Perkins

People v Perkins - 2017 NY Slip Op 27296

law.justia.com

So there has been fixed magazines arrests. This one with Perkins and another one with the Tresmonds which also was about an MR2 that probably resulted in a plea since they stopped posting about it on the other site.

 

[Marine Cpl]

The inability to do something right now does not mean the inability to do it forever.

A rifle without a working magazine catch does not *currently* have the ability to accept a magazine.

If you repair or reinstall the magazine catch, then it will have that ability again.

Why is this such a hard concept ?

Because that is not what the law says.

 

[spat]

Because that is not what the law says.

What part of the law contradicts that ?

 

[Chevusa]

So there you have it. An AR with no magazine release where it can fall out cannot accept one so it is good to go. Because a regular magazine release cannot ever be put back in the rifle to be able to accept another one. It no longer has that ability. Ever.


And an AR with a standard magazine release or one with a bullet button can also never have the ability to accept another magazine that can be detached. Ever.

I learned something today.

Dude, AR’s aren’t for you. Go to bed.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Dude, AR’s aren’t for you. Go to bed.

What part of the law contradicts that ?

See the above case.

 

[Blimey]

Little legal precedent in NY so nobody knows for sure about any of this.

IMO if you're going fixed mag in NY go fixed mag. That means no way to release it without tools. This thing is just a variant on the theme and a theme I think is dangerous and nobody here would want to stand in court and argue the merits of.

 

[spat]

See the above case.

I see your above cases. They did not make any determination aside from "out of state definitions do not matter here". And even those are not binding.

None of my arguments rely on out of state definitions.

So, what part of the law suggests that ability and potential ability are the same thing ?

Every definition I know of an ability is something that you are capable of doing right now, not something that you have the potential to do later.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Little legal precedent in NY so nobody knows for sure about any of this.

IMO if you're going fixed mag in NY go fixed mag. That means no way to release it without tools. This thing is just a variant on the theme and a theme I think is dangerous and nobody here would want to stand in court and argue the merits of.

That’s my point entirely. Thanks. That’s also why so called experts say to go as far as using epoxy or high strength glues that require heat.

The case above proves that they will go after someone with a standard MR2/ ARmaglock. The prosecution did not want to hear another states definition on what makes a magazine fixed. The only reason why the conviction didn’t stick was because he was illegally searched.