Why would a fixed mag be considered a range toy?

[Jchrisls]

Again, new and still learning, but a serious question. Specifically speaking of fixed mags in AR Safe Act compliant rifles.
All the information/ statistical data I was able to gather prior to my purchase has stated that the average self defense encounter tends to discharge between 3-7 rounds before the encounter ends. I should also state that I am not for the safe act by any means whatsoever. I took this data into account before making the decision to purchase a compliant fixed mag rifle. With the data in mind, and still having several speed loaders loaded and available, if the data points to 7, why would a fixed mag still be considered a range toy? Just curious.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Stoppages and other malfunctions, among other things.

 

[Jchrisls]

Stoppages and other malfunctions, among other things.

Fair point. I have had 3 jams early on, within the 1st month, and none since. To me, easily attributed to user errors. None since mid may, and I shoot weekly if possible. What would be the other reasons?

 

[dwa12479]

Because it goes completely against the original design of the rifle. Running out of ammo is a death sentence in a gun fight. Period.

 

[Jchrisls]

Because it goes completely against the original design of the rifle. Running out of ammo is a death sentence in a gun fight. Period.

True, there is no doubt about your ammo statement. But I've timed my loader reloading at around 2 seconds or so, I would believe similar to a mag change. And as to its going against the original design of the rifle, I also somewhat agree, but a featureless could be considered the same thing in it's own right.

 

[BDinPutnam]

I would caveat that there are different kinds of featureless.

I personally think a spur grip in a self defense scenario that would involve a rifle would be about as useful as a fixed mag. I am a Thordsen guy all the way when it comes to featureless rifles that would be used in this application.

 

[Podmonkey]

Some actions are well suited for fixed magazines even if not originally configured that way. The M1a/M14/Mini 14, the VZ 58 or any open topped action are acceptably functional with fixed magazines. Key factors are easy access to the action and a readily removable floor plate to ease remedial action in the event of a stoppage. Also for any kind of defensive use a stripper clip guide and quality stripper clips are necessary. A fixed magazine AR15 lacks all of these provisions and will be slow to reload and cumbersome in clearing actions.
In NYS you have several viable options- The M1a sacrifices little beyond a muzzle device in compliant guise as does the Mini 14. The SKS can serve competently with the caveat that you take the time to acquire and properly vet for smooth function a quantity of stripper clips and practice in their use, SKS stripper clips can be very fussy to use. The M1 Garand despite being large, heavy and obsolescent can nevertheless still be a viable defensive weapon with its extremely swift enbloc clip system. The Saiga sporter AK is also a good option if you manage to find one and probably your best option for a practical compliant arm is the FightLite SCR.
I suppose the KelTec SU-16CA could serve as well.
As to why one might need more than the 5 average of shots, more is better than less in the event of multiple attackers and especially in these times of riots and violent mobs.

 

[JackNeat]

Time your reloading under stress and factor in that you need FINE motor skills to get that reloading device placed properly. Time your fixing a jam under stress. Time any possible mishap under the stress of saving your life or families lives... all during a moment when fine motor skills go out the window.

 

[togmaster]

Double feed takes you out of the game. A fixed mag rifle is not a fighting machine.

 

[BMF JK]

Only benefit to a fixed mag is if you move to a free state it’s easily unfixed.

 

[Jchrisls]

Some actions are well suited for fixed magazines even if not originally configured that way. The M1a/M14/Mini 14, the VZ 58 or any open topped action are acceptably functional with fixed magazines. Key factors are easy access to the action and a readily removable floor plate to ease remedial action in the event of a stoppage. Also for any kind of defensive use a stripper clip guide and quality stripper clips are necessary. A fixed magazine AR15 lacks all of these provisions and will be slow to reload and cumbersome in clearing actions.
In NYS you have several viable options- The M1a sacrifices little beyond a muzzle device in compliant guise as does the Mini 14. The SKS can serve competently with the caveat that you take the time to acquire and properly vet for smooth function a quantity of stripper clips and practice in their use, SKS stripper clips can be very fussy to use. The M1 Garand despite being large, heavy and obsolescent can nevertheless still be a viable defensive weapon with its extremely swift enbloc clip system. The Saiga sporter AK is also a good option if you manage to find one and probably your best option for a practical compliant arm is the FightLite SCR.
I suppose the KelTec SU-16CA could serve as well.
As to why one might need more than the 5 average of shots, more is better than less in the event of multiple attackers and especially in these times of riots and violent mobs.

Well thought out and explained. Truly, thank you.

 

[fnfalguy]

‘Cause with my luck I would need the 12th round to stop the fight. And I’m not willing to bet on a picture perfect self defense scenario where i channel my inner John Wick.

 

[dwa12479]

True, there is no doubt about your ammo statement. But I've timed my loader reloading at around 2 seconds or so, I would believe similar to a mag change. And as to its going against the original design of the rifle, I also somewhat agree, but a featureless could be considered the same thing in it's own right.

You can release the bolt on the last round, pop the takedown pin, break open the rifle, top load 10 loose rounds into a fixed mag, close the rifle and takedown pin, pull the charging handle, and be back in action in 2 seconds?

 

[Jchrisls]

You can release the bolt on the last round, pop the takedown pin, break open the rifle, top load 10 loose rounds into a fixed mag, close the rifle and takedown pin, pull the charging handle, and be back in action in 2 seconds?

No. I use speed loaders.

 

[Jchrisls]

You can release the bolt on the last round, pop the takedown pin, break open the rifle, top load 10 loose rounds into a fixed mag, close the rifle and takedown pin, pull the charging handle, and be back in action in 2 seconds?

And with speed loaders ( BF10, Mean arms) yes, regularly around 2 seconds or so

 

[Podmonkey]

Time your reloading under stress and factor in that you need FINE motor skills to get that reloading device placed properly. Time your fixing a jam under stress. Time any possible mishap under the stress of saving your life or families lives... all during a moment when fine motor skills go out the window.

Which is why it is important to drill and drill over and over on a regular basis. With practice it is possible to swap a magazine in an AR in less than a second and to do so reflexively as a conditioned response. Same goes for remedial actions for stoppages.

 

[dwa12479]

And with speed loaders ( BF10, Mean arms) yes, regularly around 2 seconds or so

Ok, haden't seen that particular contraption before, this is what I found with a quick search, I'm assuming this is what you're using. I can see a 2 second reload with this weapon system for sure. Personal opinion, I'd much prefer the real thing.

 

[Jchrisls]

Ok, haden't seen that particular contraption before, this is what I found with a quick search, I'm assuming this is what you're using. I can see a 2 second reload with this weapon system for sure. Personal opinion, I'd much prefer the real thing.

This particular one and mean arms brand, yes. Practice reloading with this at speed every time I go to the range, potentially weekly, along with dry fire drills with light and laser daily.

 

[Podmonkey]

For the various speed loaders out there one should consider if a particular loader can retain ammunition once preloaded and be as secure in it's retention as a magazine. If not it is more of a range aid than something to be counted on in a defensive situation. Bulk and speed of use are also important considerations. It seems to me that some of these loaders meet these requirements and some don't. As always proper vetting of your equipment is key.

 

[Jchrisls]

For the various speed loaders out there one should consider if a particular loader can retain ammunition once preloaded and be as secure in it's retention as a magazine. If not it is more of a range aid than something to be counted on in a defensive situation. Bulk and speed of use are also important considerations. It seems to me that some of these loaders meet these requirements and some don't. As always proper vetting of your equipment is key.

Fortunately both brands have very good retention, similar to a magazine, albeit the BF is better, and my go to if shtf. All of my loaders are loaded for just that scenario.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Key word in your statement... AVERAGE

 

[dsdmmat]

Problem with fixed mag and speed loading through the ejection port is your magazine (feed lips) become your single point of failure. If anything damages your feed lips and you no longer have a rifle that can feed ammo reliably.

if you plan on using a fixed mag AR as a home defense gun have 5 or 6 of them ready to go. That gives you 50-60 rounds and 5-6 points of failure. If the first one fails drop it and grab #2 and so on. Odds are you will have at least one that will cycle all 10 rounds without a hitch.

you may think this is nuts but it worked for me. I always had multiple rifles ready as well as multiple handguns ready.

remember Murphy is always lurking and will strike at the worst possible moment. 1 is none and 2 is one.

 

[Jchrisls]

Key word in your statement... AVERAGE

True. I wasn't able to discern if that average was with a single aggressor or multiple aggressors. Facts regarding actual self defense statistics involving specifics are difficult to find, and sometimes outright wrong.

 

[meketrefe]

could someone buy a sports convertible coupe car as a family car? maybe but it was not designed for that.
The gun was not designed to function like that so there is a huge loss in versatility and reliability.

 

[Jchrisls]

Problem with fixed mag and speed loading through the ejection port is your magazine (feed lips) become your single point of failure. If anything damages your feed lips and you no longer have a rifle that can feed ammo reliably.

if you plan on using a fixed mag AR as a home defense gun have 5 or 6 of them ready to go. That gives you 50-60 rounds and 5-6 points of failure. If the first one fails drop it and grab #2 and so on. Odds are you will have at least one that will cycle all 10 rounds without a hitch.
Very true and seriously took this into consideration before I made my decision. Its also the reason I do have several loaders ready to go at a moment's notice everyday.


remember Murphy is always lurking and will strike at the worst possible moment. 1 is none and 2 is one.

 

[Podmonkey]

Problem with fixed mag and speed loading through the ejection port is your magazine (feed lips) become your single point of failure. If anything damages your feed lips and you no longer have a rifle that can feed ammo reliably.

if you plan on using a fixed mag AR as a home defense gun have 5 or 6 of them ready to go. That gives you 50-60 rounds and 5-6 points of failure. If the first one fails drop it and grab #2 and so on. Odds are you will have at least one that will cycle all 10 rounds without a hitch.

you may think this is nuts but it worked for me. I always had multiple rifles ready as well as multiple handguns ready.

remember Murphy is always lurking and will strike at the worst possible moment. 1 is none and 2 is one.

This a very good point. On rfiles designed to have fixed magazines the feed lips a machined into the receiver, very sturdy, no variation.
Not the case with a detachable box magazine that has been fixed in place.

 

[dsdmmat]

Very true and seriously took this into consideration before I made my decision. Its also the reason I do have several loaders ready to go at a moment's notice everyday.

Your loaders will do you no good if your mag‘s feed lips crack.

 

[Jchrisls]

Problem with fixed mag and speed loading through the ejection port is your magazine (feed lips) become your single point of failure. If anything damages your feed lips and you no longer have a rifle that can feed ammo reliably.

if you plan on using a fixed mag AR as a home defense gun have 5 or 6 of them ready to go. That gives you 50-60 rounds and 5-6 points of failure. If the first one fails drop it and grab #2 and so on. Odds are you will have at least one that will cycle all 10 rounds without a hitch.



you may think this is nuts but it worked for me. I always had multiple rifles ready as well as multiple handguns ready.

remember Murphy is always lurking and will strike at the worst possible moment. 1 is none and 2 is one.

Sorry for the double post. I took this in serious consideration before I made my decision. It's also why I have many of these loaders ready to go at a moment's notice.

 

[Jchrisls]

Your loaders will do you no good if your mag‘s feed lips crack.

True. Point taken

 

[Edwardteach72]

True. I wasn't able to discern if that average was with a single aggressor or multiple aggressors. Facts regarding actual self defense statistics involving specifics are difficult to find, and sometimes outright wrong.

That average was (iirc) some statistics put together based on police shootings back in the late 80s early 90s

It isn't an actual average so much as it is fudd lore that needs to stop being said because it helps the antis more than anything and can get someone killed.

Jack Willson put a dude down after only firing one shot,

mom and daughter running a liquor shop... mom dusted a dude something like ..... 3-5 times and the guy left and came back to beat the fuck out of the mom and try and steal her gun.

27 year old Philadelphia man was shot 16 times.. walks himself 2 MILES to the hospital.


Well lets do these 3 shooting averages. If the mom shooting was 3 rounds that equals 6.7 shots per encounter. If they shot the dude 5 times the average is 7.3 rounds per encounter... and this is just one person being shot, not 2 or 3 in a group.

(* the Philadelphia man probably wasn't a self defense shooting but should still be noted that 1) statistics are bull shit and 2) shows that just because someone was shot doesn't mean they are out of the fight)