Why would a fixed mag be considered a range toy?

[Jchrisls]

The problem is not the question but some of the arguments w/o reason. Sometimes feels like the firearms version of Bloomberg's large sodas.
Questions are fine, the openness of mind and willingness to learn is something we have a lot of problems with.
I understand firearms owners can be quite opinionated and fanatic about their favorite firearms and calibers that is fine but there must be a limit somewhere.
In any case, it is a systemic condition in many forums, SM, even news and such.

So of its deemed acceptable to ask questions and be willing to learn, where have I demonstrated a lack of an open mind?

If responses for a counterpoint in playing the devil's advocate to attain more information to gain greater knowledge or facts or information is fanaticism from an opposing viewpoint than im guilty.

I believe the original question demonstrates that in itself, simply in its naivete. The openness and willingness to accept constructive criticism is a large part of why I joined here, even demonstrated with this post, being completely new to firearms and wanting to learn more.

 

[Jchrisls]

That’s correct but no matter how much you train, your equipment has limits. For example. An infantry platoon can train on fixed mag rifles and they will get smoked by another platoon that trains half as much but have regular rifles. It’s the equipment.

Now when it comes to loaders, you can train your ass off but all that goes out the window when it’s 430 AM and you are half asleep in the dark. Those loaders have to be inserted and engaged just right. On the other hand, a magazine can be fumbled and still loaded easily. It isn’t as dependent on a perfect fit.

This is informative and useful. Thank you

 

[BDinPutnam]

Fewer variables = better.

 

[meketrefe]

So of its deemed acceptable to ask questions and be willing to learn, where have I demonstrated a lack of an open mind?

If responses for a counterpoint in playing the devil's advocate to attain more information to gain greater knowledge or facts or information is fanaticism from an opposing viewpoint than im guilty.

I believe the original question demonstrates that in itself, simply in its naivete. The openness and willingness to accept constructive criticism is a large part of why I joined here, even demonstrated with this post, being completely new to firearms and wanting to learn more.

It has nothing to do with your question or your opinions. It is a general theme that I should have stated to make it clear so sorry
about the confusion I might have created.
What people need to remember is that we train as we fight. Equipment is one concern but the other, even as important or more,
is the professional training where one learns about the proper equipment itself but specially exercises and tactics to make it effective.
And yes, a fix mag contraption might be ok to harvest a deer or pop some chucks or target practice but no much else if one is taking defensive
tactics seriously.

 

[Edwardteach72]

This could be applied to anything additional brought to the fight, stripper clips or magazines. This doesn't hold water. Anything additional based on your statement would be a fault. EX-how would you plan to bring additional magazines to a fight?
Flawed logic

Not flawed logic at all, with a 30 round magazine I already start ahead of the curve.

With 10 round detachable magazine I can toss other 10 rounders in mag carriers, even use mag couplers, double up 2 10 rounds (or even better two 10-30 rounders) or i can add any other readily available mag carriers designed to hold AR mags.. that don't fit things like the bear arsenal shit.

But hey sorry you got shit called out so now its "flawed" logic

If running an sks or other x39 stripper clips fed option


Or say a M1 carbine (more so a similar set up can be done on a Garand)



Hm ruger pcc option



Mini 14 even (simialr set up could be done for a fightlite scr)



But here we have both of the AR stripper clip things.. by design will not correctly fit most/all ar15 mag carriers.. and well I haven't seen a market for bf10 mag carriers, If you have please show me a link..




But don't call shit flawed logic just because you don't have an answer to the question

 

[JackNeat]

If I may liken this topic to something else I experienced in life... As I learned carpentry from my BIL there were many things I thought about and wanted to try. There are paragraphs I could write about this. Some of it was legitimate and a case of new school thinking vs old school thinking. Most of it though was experience vs just thinking through things. Experience wins most of those arguments and that is what I learned as the years went by. Sometimes you just do what works well... because it just works.

I was on the fence about what rifle I ended up buying and it was one of the “other“ classification ARs. Ultimately, because it didn’t require doing things in a way that the majority of experience tells you not to do things. That is a lesson I learned elsewhere and earlier in life but I recognized it and how it applied to the advice generally given in this community. Especially if your life might depend on it.. just do what experience has proven best time after time.

 

[Acer-m14]

if the Fixed Mag AR is so good for defense ... then why did FUAC have to go back and add LEO exempt ??

 

[Jem45472]

I'm with @dsdmmat . If I had one gun, it wouldn't be a fixed mag. I however have no problem with it as a secondary option. I've asked this question before- how many mags and carriers do you load up with when something goes bump in the night? Me personally would probably be my 9mm with a spare mag and fixed mag ar on sling.

Fact is, one of the ar's greatest strengths is already neutured in NY which is magazine capacity. Sad that we even need to discuss which shitty option works best.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Fact is, one of the ar's greatest strengths is already neutured in NY which is magazine capacity. Sad that we even need to discuss which shitty option works best.

And then people want to neuter their already diminished magazine capacity and limit themselves even further by making it harder to load.

You can’t make this shit up.

 

[Jchrisls]

If I may liken this topic to something else I experienced in life... As I learned carpentry from my BIL there were many things I thought about and wanted to try. There are paragraphs I could write about this. Some of it was legitimate and a case of new school thinking vs old school thinking. Most of it though was experience vs just thinking through things. Experience wins most of those arguments and that is what I learned as the years went by. Sometimes you just do what works well... because it just works.

I was on the fence about what rifle I ended up buying and it was one of the “other“ classification ARs. Ultimately, because it didn’t require doing things in a way that the majority of experience tells you not to do things. That is a lesson I learned elsewhere and earlier in life but I recognized it and how it applied to the advice generally given in this community. Especially if your life might depend on it.. just do what experience has proven best time after time.

With regards to the learned skills of carpentry VS new trains of thought I couldn't agree with you more. So many new ways and tools for construction, many just gadgets to compensate for that lack of knowledge or skill with an existing tool. This I agree with, and could go on for hours about also.

 

[Podmonkey]

If I won the lottery I just might buy everyone on these forums an SCR just to end these discussions once and for all.

 

[Jem45472]

If I won the lottery I just might buy everyone on these forums an SCR just to end these discussions once and for all.

Better yet, new homes in a free state like yours. We could be neighbors!

 

[Podmonkey]

I'm with @dsdmmat . If I had one gun, it wouldn't be a fixed mag. I however have no problem with it as a secondary option. I've asked this question before- how many mags and carriers do you load up with when something goes bump in the night? Me personally would probably be my 9mm with a spare mag and fixed mag ar on sling.

Fact is, one of the ar's greatest strengths is already neutured in NY which is magazine capacity. Sad that we even need to discuss which shitty option works best.

I have a nice little bandoleer thing that has two pouches for AR mags, 1 pistol mag pouch, a medkit and a flashlight. There is a bit of unused Moller for something like a knife or another tourniquet too. I keep it hanging on a door knob under my HD AR15. I could throw that on real quick and have everything I could ever need. I also have the option of tossing on the Glock in its shoulder rig instead.

 

[Podmonkey]

Better yet, new homes in a free state like yours. We could be neighbors!

I swear, you offer to buy a person in need a Ford and they ask for a Mercedes instead.

 

[Jchrisls]

I swear, you offer to buy a person in need a Ford and they ask for a Mercedes instead.

For the record, I'm ok with the "ford" you spoke of at any time.

 

[Jem45472]

I swear, you offer to buy a person in need a Ford and they ask for a Mercedes instead.

You know I'm just giving you shit, but it must be nice to not have to be part of these ridiculous arguments anymore. ( That is until PA turns blue )

 

[Podmonkey]

For the record, I'm ok with the "ford" you spoke of at any time.

Get with me after I win the lottery. You will know this has happened when I have posted pics of my new Barret .50 and Lewis Machine and Tool collection.

 

[Podmonkey]

You know I'm just giving you shit, but it must be nice to not have to be part of these ridiculous arguments anymore. ( That is until PA turns blue )

PA was blue, in the blue collar union sense. Now PA has taken a hard right into the red with Trump, which we will be doing again in the coming election.
PA has been and will remain for the foreseeable future a very pro gun state.

 

[spat]

PA was blue, in the blue collar union sense. Now PA has taken a hard right into the red with Trump, which we will be doing again in the coming election.
PA has been and will remain for the foreseeable future a very pro gun state.

Be careful, the NYC infection is spreading rapidly.

The rats leaving that sinking ship are carrying the plague of leftism, and a lot of them are eyeing PA.

 

[Podmonkey]

Be careful, the NYC infection is spreading rapidly.

The rats leaving that sinking ship are carrying the plague of leftism, and a lot of them are eyeing PA.

PA has a preemption clause in the state constitution. They would have to defeat that first.
Besides, I am not sure if I willbe sticking around too much longer. Been thinking of moving back down to Texas for work reasons.

 

[spat]

PA has a preemption clause in the state constitution. They would have to defeat that first.
Besides, I am not sure if I willbe sticking around too much longer. Been thinking of moving back down to Texas for work reasons.

When leftists get power they tend not to let things like constitutional prohibitions get in their way.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

I own one of the BFD loaders and they work very well for the most part. With practice, they can be used just about as quickly as detachable mags. The main point here though, is that the AR wasn't meant to be used like this. Period. There is no arguing otherwise. It's a clever work around to the unconstitutional laws in some states. That's all.
One can argue that with enough practice and enough rounds down range you can achieve the muscle memory for the loading and gain the confidence in the platform to feel it would be a reliable option for you to use as a self defense weapon. Great, hat's off to ya.
You are still left with the fact that the AR wasn't meant to be run like that and when you have a malfunction, it will be much more complicated to fix and clear than it would be with just being able to drop the mag, rack and clear and reinsert new mag.

Then there is the other can of worms (which I know will likely cause a thread derailment) which is the aftermath of a defensive shooting with the fixed mag AR. You'll have an otherwise full featured gun, with what you hope will prove to be a fixed magazine in court. The whole compliance vagueness makes using an AR platform in any configuration a risky choice for HD in my opinion.

 

[Xae289]

For a home defense rifle, I don't see a fixed mag as being bad for me. If I hear a bump in the night and grab a gun, I'm gonna be honest, I'm not going to grab a rig with spare mags, I'm just grabbing whatever handgun or rifle is at hand. What's in that is what I'm fighting with. Out of my options, I'll take 10 rds of .300 Blackout over the rest.

Now when it comes to civil conflict and serious use of those weapons, that sounds like a really good time to not comply with laws meant to hamstring citizens in favor of criminals.

 

[Edwardteach72]

For a home defense rifle, I don't see a fixed mag as being bad for me. If I hear a bump in the night and grab a gun, I'm gonna be honest, I'm not going to grab a rig with spare mags, I'm just grabbing whatever handgun or rifle is at hand. What's in that is what I'm fighting with. Out of my options, I'll take 10 rds of .300 Blackout over the rest.

Now when it comes to civil conflict and serious use of those weapons, that sounds like a really good time to not comply with laws meant to hamstring citizens in favor of criminals.

Why would you want to limit yourself to 10 rounds?

 

[Xae289]

Why would you want to limit yourself to 10 rounds?

Can you legally have over 10 rds in a fixed mag rifle?

 

[Edwardteach72]

Can you legally have over 10 rds in a fixed mag rifle?

Well 1) yes you can have 11 rounds

And more importantly

2) there are options other than fixed mag rifles

 

[Xae289]

Well 1) yes you can have 11 rounds

And more importantly

2) there are options other than fixed mag rifles

Yea true. I was hoping fixing a mag somehow made 120 rd drums legal.

With my "other", I installed a quickly reversible fixed mag option just so I can walk in to ranges I don't know and make sure they're cool before I use it like an " other". I don't keep it set up with a fixed mag and I do keep 10+1. Still, like I said, if that's the gun I grab to deal with a bump in the night, I'm probably not shoving extra mags or a sidearm in my underwear, and I'm not getting dressed so 10+1 is what I'll have.

 

[BDinPutnam]

YMMV.

If im going with a long gun here, i am generally more concerned with accuracy than rate of fire.

10+1 in the gun, 10 on the stock, and 2 10 round magazines handy. Plus its unlikely I'd deploy this without a handgun at my waist. I think 41 rounds of .308 plus 11 9mm are plenty for my needs.

I have to put the light (Fenix PD30) back on this.

 

[Podmonkey]

YMMV.

If im going with a long gun here, i am generally more concerned with accuracy than rate of fire.

10+1 in the gun, 10 on the stock, and 2 10 round magazines handy. Plus its unlikely I'd deploy this without a handgun at my waist. I think 41 rounds of .308 plus 11 9mm are plenty for my needs.

I have to put the light (Fenix PD30) back on this.

View attachment 86176

While a nice compact and handy rifle like that would serve well for SHTF hunting it's use as a defensive tool against predators of the 2 legged variety is marginal at best, and hopeless if your opponent is armed with a semi auto rifle. Against anything that can shoot back volume of fire is paramount. All the more reason to eschew fixed magazine ARs in favor of compliant configurations with detachable magazines.
Again, I have to say the M1 Garand does still have a role in restrictive states, an M1 can put up a very high volume of fire for what it is.
Here is an example of what a modernized M1 can look like-

This is a Shuff's Mini-G 16" conversion chambered in .308 and fitted with a synthetic stock and an Ultimak rail. I would take this over an M1a SOCOM any day, enbloc clips are very fast to reload compared to the cumbersome box magazines of the M14/M1A. I believe you even get to keep the bayonet lug as that is your 1 permissible feature.

 

[Edwardteach72]

While a nice compact and handy rifle like that would serve well for SHTF hunting it's use as a defensive tool against predators of the 2 legged variety is marginal at best, and hopeless if your opponent is armed with a semi auto rifle. Against anything that can shoot back volume of fire is paramount. All the more reason to eschew fixed magazine ARs in favor of compliant configurations with detachable magazines.
Again, I have to say the M1 Garand does still have a role in restrictive states, an M1 can put up a very high volume of fire for what it is.
Here is an example of what a modernized M1 can look like-
View attachment 86184
This is a Shuff's Mini-G 16" conversion chambered in .308 and fitted with a synthetic stock and an Ultimak rail. I would take this over an M1a SOCOM any day, enbloc clips are very fast to reload compared to the cumbersome box magazines of the M14/M1A. I believe you even get to keep the bayonet lug as that is your 1 permissible feature.

Honestly even with some well veted 10 round mags the M1 carbine can make a solid HD gun over a fixed mag AR


Also as for the previous accuracy over rate of fire.. unless you are buying some of the barging bin bottom shelf build AR or the barrels these cheap companies sell (i could name a few but don't want to hurt any feelings) with an AR you can easily get sub MOA accuracy or on the "bad" end of the spectrum 1.5-2 moa...

If 1.5" 5 round group in't accurate for say an average size man target at 100y then sadly a .5moa gun probably won't do the job either