Why would a fixed mag be considered a range toy?

[Criticalt]

And this is why the 3-5 average saying (with no one even providing the study that gave those numbers) is fudd lore and imho dangerous to keep telling new and ignorant (for lack of better terms) tun owners.

It gives people a false sense of security.. oh i only need a 7 round glock 43 because... or we can't have 30 round magazines, that's ok 10 will get the job done with extras left over

The guy I hear keep repeating this is John Corriea from ASP. He does always stress "MOST" end in less than 5 rounds......not all and he does not suggest carrying 5 bullets.
He just says a 5 round snubbie is better than nothing.

 

[BDinPutnam]

While a nice compact and handy rifle like that would serve well for SHTF hunting it's use as a defensive tool against predators of the 2 legged variety is marginal at best, and hopeless if your opponent is armed with a semi auto rifle. Against anything that can shoot back volume of fire is paramount. All the more reason to eschew fixed magazine ARs in favor of compliant configurations with detachable magazines.
Again, I have to say the M1 Garand does still have a role in restrictive states, an M1 can put up a very high volume of fire for what it is.
Here is an example of what a modernized M1 can look like-
View attachment 86184
This is a Shuff's Mini-G 16" conversion chambered in .308 and fitted with a synthetic stock and an Ultimak rail. I would take this over an M1a SOCOM any day, enbloc clips are very fast to reload compared to the cumbersome box magazines of the M14/M1A. I believe you even get to keep the bayonet lug as that is your 1 permissible feature.

As I said, YMMV. Up here I am much more concerned with 4 legged threats than I am 2 legged predators.

Besides which if I've deployed with this kit the odds are my wife is holding an AR with 8 mags nearby and a sidearm on her hip inside the house anyway.

But damned if I don't want that rifle you posted anyway!

 

[dsdmmat]

While a nice compact and handy rifle like that would serve well for SHTF hunting it's use as a defensive tool against predators of the 2 legged variety is marginal at best, and hopeless if your opponent is armed with a semi auto rifle. Against anything that can shoot back volume of fire is paramount. All the more reason to eschew fixed magazine ARs in favor of compliant configurations with detachable magazines.
Again, I have to say the M1 Garand does still have a role in restrictive states, an M1 can put up a very high volume of fire for what it is.
Here is an example of what a modernized M1 can look like-
View attachment 86184
This is a Shuff's Mini-G 16" conversion chambered in .308 and fitted with a synthetic stock and an Ultimak rail. I would take this over an M1a SOCOM any day, enbloc clips are very fast to reload compared to the cumbersome box magazines of the M14/M1A. I believe you even get to keep the bayonet lug as that is your 1 permissible feature.

Fixed mag so features don’t matter.

 

[nortatoga]

I don't care for the fixed mags at all! Now I have not paid much attention to those at the range with these top loaders, but one question I will ask for SHTF are you able to load them with you eyes closed? The reason I ask is do you want to take your eyes off you're attacker. A handgun would be my first choice then my Ruger PCC 9 then my Mini 14 followed by my SCR. PCC9 because of not over penetration ( hoping Ruger comes out with a mag-well for the M&P. I don't want to buy a Glock!!) Now the reason for the Mini 14 ahead of the SCR is that it is shorter my SCR has a 19" barrel.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I don't care for the fixed mags at all! Now I have not paid much attention to those at the range with these top loaders, but one question I will ask for SHTF are you able to load them with you eyes closed? The reason I ask is do you want to take your eyes off you're attacker. A handgun would be my first choice then my Ruger PCC 9 then my Mini 14 followed by my SCR. PCC9 because of not over penetration ( hoping Ruger comes out with a mag-well for the M&P. I don't want to buy a Glock!!) Now the reason for the Mini 14 ahead of the SCR is that it is shorter my SCR has a 19" barrel.

At that point though you'd be able to easily find a different upper for the SCR

 

[Saltwater60]

I have a plan. My plan is the two pistols in my bedroom. One pistol I have 41 rounds for the other pistol I have 29 rounds for. I have two choices. Get to my sons bedroom next room over and get to the roof for an escape or get to my gun safe. I have all sorts of guns loaded up in the safe. I have 2 fixed mag AR’s as a last resort. I have another pistol with 40 rounds loaded and a throdsen ar is 70-80 rounds set up and loaded. All Ar’s I just need to close the bolt. I have shotguns too that just need the safety clicked off of. I consider myself well set anyway you cut it. I would not rely on a fixed mag AR as my primarily go to gun in a gun fight. Yes 3-7 rounds are generally fired but we’ve seen multiple instances of multiple people entering homes now a days.

 

[dsdmmat]

I have a plan. My plan is the two pistols in my bedroom. One pistol I have 41 rounds for the other pistol I have 29 rounds for. I have two choices. Get to my sons bedroom next room over and get to the roof for an escape or get to my gun safe. I have all sorts of guns loaded up in the safe. I have 2 fixed mag AR’s as a last resort. I have another pistol with 40 rounds loaded and a throdsen ar is 70-80 rounds set up and loaded. All Ar’s I just need to close the bolt. I have shotguns too that just need the safety clicked off of. I consider myself well set anyway you cut it. I would not rely on a fixed mag AR as my primarily go to gun in a gun fight. Yes 3-7 rounds are generally fired but we’ve seen multiple instances of multiple people entering homes now a days.

I had my Garand sitting next to the bed with 7 AP rounds in the enbloc under a closed bolt. Figure if I needed to make sure they went down (even if they were wearing level 4 plates) that aught to do it.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I had my Garand sitting next to the bed with 7 AP rounds in the enbloc under a closed bolt. Figure if I needed to make sure they went down (even if they were wearing level 4 plates) that aught to do it.

Wouldn't penetrate lvl 4 atleast not the first few rounds.

NIJ lvl 4 raiting is good for AP 30.06

 

[dsdmmat]

Wouldn't penetrate lvl 4 atleast not the first few rounds.

NIJ lvl 4 raiting is good for AP 30.06

AT 10 yards it is going to put them down on the floor after that it is over.

 

[Jcp123]

I mean...stripper clips aren’t the best, but if you have something designed to use them, it’s actually not a terrible alternative to detachable mags. In some ways it might even be better, as you aren’t carrying the weight or volume of entire mag bodies around your loadout. I’d call fixed mag conditionally obsolescent, but not outright obsolete.

 

[Podmonkey]

I mean...stripper clips aren’t the best, but if you have something designed to use them, it’s actually not a terrible alternative to detachable mags. In some ways it might even be better, as you aren’t carrying the weight or volume of entire mag bodies around your loadout. I’d call fixed mag conditionally obsolescent, but not outright obsolete.

Of the stripper clips I am familiar with, the K98, Enfield, Mosin and SKS, all were a bit fiddly. In the case of the Russians extremely fiddly.
And in the case of practical self defense only the SKS, among these, suitable. If depending on an SKS a great deal of practice is on order.
Enbloc clips are another matter.

 

[nortatoga]

At that point though you'd be able to easily find a different upper for the SCR

Yes but would it be sighted in for me ( irons, red-dot or scope ) and sighted in for my ammo?

 

[NYCGuy]

True, there is no doubt about your ammo statement. But I've timed my loader reloading at around 2 seconds or so, I would believe similar to a mag change. And as to its going against the original design of the rifle, I also somewhat agree, but a featureless could be considered the same thing in it's own right.

If you have a malfunction you will basically be left with a small baseball bat as it’s much easier to clear it when you drop the mag. I’ve seen this happen at the range many times and it takes upwards of 20 seconds with no pressure if you have a tool handy to clear it.

 

[Kent Goldings]

The great thing about a fixed-mag compliant AR is that you can put a bayonet on it.

If you’ve decided that you can end an engagement with just a few rounds, why get an AR at all? An auto-loading shotgun would suffice.

But, why go that far, only a very small fraction gun owners participate in shooting incidents. Gun owners are six more times as likely to shoot themselves. Why have a functioning rifle at all? You can hang all the tactical gizmos from it. You’ll look like a real special operator toting it around the house. I’m joking.

At the last tactical carbine class I attended, the guy who brought a fix-mag rig could not even get though one drill. He couldn’t clear malfunctions easily and reloading was complicated and awkward. He ended up borrowing a spare lower from another shooter.

Before you’ve decided the trust a rifle, take it to a practical shooting class that involves shooting, moving and reloading on the move. The AR configuration just works best.


IMHO, A rifle with a fixed mag is not even a good range toy. I want a tactical carbine to practice tactical skills and maybe competitive shooting. I don’t do this as home-defense practice. I have more mundane firearms for that. I need more from than just sitting at the bench. I have target rifles for that. A fixed mag AR is, at best, a wall-hanging symbolic FU to AC.

My favorite range toy is my Ruger M77 Hawkeye LRT. I’ve never even loaded the mag for it. I just feed in the cartridges one-at-a-time.

 

[Edwardteach72]

The great thing about a fixed-mag compliant AR is that you can put a bayonet on it.

If you’ve decided that you can end an engagement with just a few rounds, why get an AR at all? An auto-loading shotgun would suffice.

But, why go that far, only a very small fraction gun owners participate in shooting incidents. Gun owners are six more times as likely to shoot themselves. Why have a functioning rifle at all? You can hang all the tactical gizmos from it. You’ll look like a real special operator toting it around the house. I’m joking.

At the last tactical carbine class I attended, the guy who brought a fix-mag rig could not even get though one drill. He couldn’t clear malfunctions easily and reloading was complicated and awkward. He ended up borrowing a spare lower from another shooter.

Before you’ve decided the trust a rifle, take it to a practical shooting class that involves shooting, moving and reloading on the move. The AR configuration just works best.


IMHO, A rifle with a fixed mag is not even a good range toy. I want a tactical carbine to practice tactical skills and maybe competitive shooting. I don’t do this as home-defense practice. I have more mundane firearms for that. I need more from than just sitting at the bench. I have target rifles for that. A fixed mag AR is, at best, a wall-hanging symbolic FU to AC.

My favorite range toy is my Ruger M77 Hawkeye LRT. I’ve never even loaded the mag for it. I just feed in the cartridges one-at-a-time.

I believe there is a solid company that offers these types of classes hmm what was that name again oh yea @OnSight Firearms Training

 

[JamieZ]

A fixed mag AR is, at best, a wall-hanging symbolic FU to AC.

I love my fixed mag AR 6.8 for deer hunting in the snow. When you have 3 tons of clothes on and you have to walk a little over a mile out to your tree stand its nice having a light gun and the ergonomics of using it make it ideal.

I love hunting coyote with my fixed mag 204 AR. When you are walking through the snow with lots of clothes on, a backpack with your caller in it, a chair over one shoulder,,,its nice having a light gun over the other,,,plus I love shooting with a pistol grip and a linear muzzle brake.

My 223 sleeps in the safe.

I changed my rifle for chuck hunting, I use to use the 204 AR, now I use the RPR 6 Creedmoor. Not to happy about the weight compared to my 204 even with a ultralight carbon fiber barrel mounted on the 6.

Dedicated mag AR's make excellent hunting rifles when built with high quality barrels.

 

[Jchrisls]

Thanks to everyone for sharing thier experiences. It is appreciated.

 

[OnSight Firearms Training]

I believe there is a solid company that offers these types of classes hmm what was that name again oh yea @OnSight Firearms Training

Aaaaaayeap!
www.oftllc.us

 

[Kent Goldings]

I had discounted a centerfire autoloading rifle for hunting because New York State limits magazine capacity of such rifles to 5 rounds for hunting. That may have been a mistake. I’ve used a 10/22 for squirrel hunting, and I prefer it over any bolt gun. Being able to follow up without having to work the action is a real advantage against small moving game. I can understand the utility of a fixed mag AR for varmints or coyote. I like having a muzzle brake in my rifles to help with follow through. An autoloading 223 with a proper grip and brake would be much better suited to that task. A standard ammo capacity and fast moving reloads would not be necessary for that application.

 

[OnSight Firearms Training]

An autoloading 223 with a proper grip and brake would be much better suited to that task. A standard ammo capacity and fast moving reloads would not be necessary for that application.

CT4-2A from www.deltaleveldefense.com

 

[Kent Goldings]

CT4-2A from www.deltaleveldefense.com

An “other” for varmints. Interesting. Shorter cartridges like 223 don’t get an advantage from a longer barrel.

 

[Jcp123]

Of the stripper clips I am familiar with, the K98, Enfield, Mosin and SKS, all were a bit fiddly. In the case of the Russians extremely fiddly.
And in the case of practical self defense only the SKS, among these, suitable. If depending on an SKS a great deal of practice is on order.
Enbloc clips are another matter.

True, I’d pick an enbloc over a stripper any day.

Only on a gun forum does something marginal get picked over a stripper!