Within 150 Yards

[freddy]

308 is a bit of a waste in 16" but if you choose your ammo correctly
the 308 makes as much power as the two other combined.

See if you can find 155gr british surplus...

Otherwise winchester 147gr will give 200fps more than federal.
Other nato ammo might work better than lake city for that size. DAG possibly.
If you roll your own you can put a 175gr bullet to 2500fps or a 120gr to 3000fps with faster powders.
308 Winchester 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip 20rds.
If you don't mind spending a bit more then the 130gr TTSX from barnes comes out close to 3000fps from a 16" barrel.
Also see if you can locate the new M80A1. A friend has managed to get bullets but not the loads.
Those are also optimized like the Radway and they are 130gr arrohead like the 62gr M855A1.

Here you go. Cheap too. Only $5 per round.
ARMSLIST - For Sale: M80a1 epr 308 7.62x51 ammo

 

[meketrefe]

Here you go. Cheap too. Only $5 per round.
ARMSLIST - For Sale: M80a1 epr 308 7.62x51 ammo

Practically free! lol

 

[Podmonkey]

You know damn well what my answer is.
5.56 JSPs. I obviously favor the Gold Dots cause I can get em at a good price online but the MSR Fusions do the same thing and I see those in stores all the time, albeit at a significantly higher cost. I prefer the 62/64gr for extra hard barrier penn via increased velocity over the 7xgr. 55gr would proly just blow up on hard barriers. From my range time blowing up cinder blocks and solid concrete sample cylinders, M855 will do a number on concrete among 5.56 loads but 7.62x39 more so. For max legal hard barrier penn use M2 AP out of a Garand, if you can find any.
12 slugs will chunk up concrete better than any of the above actually.
Still 5.56/ 223 JSPs offer the greatest flexibility over a wide variety of targets.
You know this. I also know you like the heavy Gold Dots but they do run significantly slower than other 5.56/.223 7xgr loads and I wonder if that might negatively effect performance on hard targets. 62gr works fine regardless.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You know damn well what my answer is.
5.56 JSPs. I obviously favor the Gold Dots cause I can get em at a good price online but the MSR Fusions do the same thing and I see those in stores all the time, albeit at a significantly higher cost. I prefer the 62/64gr for extra hard barrier penn via increased velocity over the 7xgr. 55gr would proly just blow up on hard barriers. From my range time blowing up cinder blocks and solid concrete sample cylinders, M855 will do a number on concrete among 5.56 loads but 7.62x39 more so. For max legal hard barrier penn use M2 AP out of a Garand, if you can find any.
12 slugs will chunk up concrete better than any of the above actually.
Still 5.56/ 223 JSPs offer the greatest flexibility over a wide variety of targets.
You know this. I also know you like the heavy Gold Dots but they do run significantly slower than other 5.56/.223 7xgr loads and I wonder if that might negatively effect performance on hard targets. 62gr works fine regardless.

I've been going back and forth in my head with this. I originally wanted the .308 AR10 because it would be a do everything cartridge but it's heavier and requires a longer barrel which I do not want. Then there's the blast as mentioned above.

Then I thought of the good old .223 but it has its limitations on barrier penetration unless you use the right bullet which will in turn suffer on soft target performance.

So I started leaning towards the 7.62x39. It does well against barriers, isn't terribly loud, and even with FMJ it has had acceptable soft tissue performance. The only thing is that they aren't as reliable in the AR platform and I don't want a heavier AK platform that's hard to make featureless or break down into halves like an AR can.

So it's either .a 6 lb .223 or a 6 lb 7.62x39 AR. Assuming you use M855 ball, would the ballistic performance be about similar to 7.62x39 FMJ? Would 7.62x39 HP's have more barrier penetration than M855 ball?

 

[Podmonkey]

I've been going back and forth in my head with this. I originally wanted the .308 AR10 because it would be a do everything cartridge but it's heavier and requires a longer barrel which I do not want. Then there's the blast as mentioned above.

Then I thought of the good old .223 but it has its limitations on barrier penetration unless you use the right bullet which will in turn suffer on soft target performance.

So I started leaning towards the 7.62x39. It does well against barriers, isn't terribly loud, and even with FMJ it has had acceptable soft tissue performance. The only thing is that they aren't as reliable in the AR platform and I don't want a heavier AK platform that's hard to make featureless or break down into halves like an AR can.

So it's either .a 6 lb .223 or a 6 lb 7.62x39 AR. Assuming you use M855 ball, would the ballistic performance be about similar to 7.62x39 FMJ? Would 7.62x39 HP's have more barrier penetration than M855 ball?

Either deal with a heavier AK for access to reliable 7.62x39 delivery or stick with 5.56 AR. Personally I think the 5.56 in anything but M855 guise has superior termininal effect in soft tissue than the .30 hole in and out 7.62x39. 223 JSPs are pretty good at punching through common barriers while retaining terminal performance. And if low weight and wide availability are the primary concerns the AR/5.56 platform is the best choice here. It works very well for LE all across the country after all.

 

[@thewheels]

The hearing is definitely a consideration I didn't think of at the time I posted. Thanks.

I wouldn't want to shoot any of these suggestions without ears on/in and from a strictly defensive standpoint you might be shooting a lot.
Does this need to be an SA? I know they aren't quite as capable at 150 yards but what about a lever action in 44 mag?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Either deal with a heavier AK for access to reliable 7.62x39 delivery or stick with 5.56 AR. Personally I think the 5.56 in anything but M855 guise has superior termininal effect in soft tissue than the .30 hole in and out 7.62x39. 223 JSPs are pretty good at punching through common barriers while retaining terminal performance. And if low weight and wide availability are the primary concerns the AR/5.56 platform is the best choice here. It works very well for LE all across the country after all.

Yeah. I guess.

 

[Exonautic]

I wouldn't want to shoot any of these suggestions without ears on/in and from a strictly defensive standpoint you might be shooting a lot.
Does this need to be an SA? I know they aren't quite as capable at 150 yards but what about a lever action in 44 mag?

That's like shooting yourself in the leg before running a race.

 

[ManrisFrack]

That's like shooting yourself in the leg before running a race.

Well Campos took a 5.56 in the leg and ran all the way to Mexico so...

 

[Marine Cpl]

I wouldn't want to shoot any of these suggestions without ears on/in and from a strictly defensive standpoint you might be shooting a lot.
Does this need to be an SA? I know they aren't quite as capable at 150 yards but what about a lever action in 44 mag?

I've got a 9mm AR for home defense and bugout to keep things light. This is going to be a setup and forget rifle for if and when things go south and I have to hunker down. I still want it to be short and light though.

 

[Podmonkey]

Y'know, a lever action in 44 mag would cover all the bases here too. light, powerful, punch through just about anything short of hardened armor at close range. But is there anything the 44. mag can do that the 30-30 couldn't do better? .44 mag will also annihilate unprotected ears indoor too. Most everything will. Also, gotta say a PCC in .40 S&W may well be better at ventilating cars than 5.56.

 

[togmaster]

How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin?

 

[Podmonkey]

How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin?

10 billon +1

 

[Marine Cpl]

Y'know, a lever action in 44 mag would cover all the bases here too. light, powerful, punch through just about anything short of hardened armor at close range. But is there anything the 44. mag can do that the 30-30 couldn't do better? .44 mag will also annihilate unprotected ears indoor too. Most everything will. Also, gotta say a PCC in .40 S&W may well be better at ventilating cars than 5.56.

I think even a 9mm will. I use 115 gr +P Penetrators and seen a YouTube video where those went through a trunk, through the back seat, through the front seat, and into a few sheets of plywood. And that was through a pistol going 300 fps slower.

.223 has been known to fragment.

 

[Podmonkey]

I think even a 9mm will. I use 115 gr +P Penetrators and seen a YouTube video where those went through a trunk, through the back seat, through the front seat, and into a few sheets of plywood.

.223 has been known to fragment.

Food for for thought. You already have a PCC anyway. 5.56 becomes more desirable as range increases. Out to 50 PCCs are probably adequate for most defensive uses.

 

[@thewheels]

Y'know, a lever action in 44 mag would cover all the bases here too. light, powerful, punch through just about anything short of hardened armor at close range. But is there anything the 44. mag can do that the 30-30 couldn't do better? .44 mag will also annihilate unprotected ears indoor too. Most everything will. Also, gotta say a PCC in .40 S&W may well be better at ventilating cars than 5.56.

The 30-30 could do better but I'd think the ammo is bulkier/heavier and follow ups will be slower. Can't fit 10 rounds of 30-30 in the tube either. A pocket/pouch of loose 44 mag would be lighter and easier to load to keep the tube topped off at 10. A little bit easier on the ears too.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Food for for thought. You already have a PCC anyway. 5.56 becomes more desirable as range increases. Out to 50 PCCs are probably adequate for most defensive uses.

I would say a hundred. At 100 it slows down to pistol velocities and it still is accurate enough.

But it doesn't do too well against armor. That's where the rifle comes in.

 

[Podmonkey]

The 30-30 could do better but I'd think the ammo is bulkier/heavier and follow ups will be slower. Can't fit 10 rounds of 30-30 in the tube either. A pocket/pouch of loose 44 mag would be lighter and easier to load to keep the tube topped off at 10. A little bit easier on the ears too.

Plus cross compatibility with a side arm. In fact if we stepped down to .357 magnum we would amplify these advantages further while still maintaining effectiveness.
I've always thought a .357 mag lever/wheel gun pairing would make a pretty damn useful bug out and survival tool.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Get a cowboy hat and a lever gun sir.

 

[ECU Pirates]

There you go. Take down .223

BLR Black Label Monte Carlo Take-Down

 

[@thewheels]

There you go. Take down .223

BLR Black Label Monte Carlo Take-Down

What's with the twist rate on that thing?

 

[ECU Pirates]

What's with the twist rate on that thing?

No clue. I have always wanted a take down lever gun though. Would get more of normal looking one though!

 

[Marine Cpl]

No clue. I have always wanted a take down lever gun though. Would get more of normal looking one though!

That's Fudd talk.

 

[dsdmmat]

Unless he lives outside of new york or has special le privilege, the only thing acceptable to run that round out of is not allowed here.
P90 or bust for 5.7!!!

An AR57 upper, thread protector and the OP's favorite stock with 10 round mags is legal

 

[SomeSoldier]

To get what you want roll your own. You can keep rolling, when the stores are empty. 16" "barrel" with pen, without going deaf at 200yrd targets, .300 blk. Rolled it can be pretty cheap.

When I leave this damn state, I plan on a canned .300blk rifle for what you are talking about but a much shorter barrel.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Saiga .308 ftw....

 

[Marine Cpl]

To get what you want roll your own. You can keep rolling, when the stores are empty. 16" "barrel" with pen, without going deaf at 200yrd targets, .300 blk. Rolled it can be pretty cheap.

When I leave this damn state, I plan on a canned .300blk rifle for what you are talking about but a much shorter barrel.

I don't really have time for that. I'm gone 13 hours a day door to door during the week for work.

I just plan on bulk buying enough rounds and calling it a day. I don't shoot rifles much anymore. Lately it's just been my carry pistol. Cuomo ruined that for me. It'll more then likely just be put away for that rainy day.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Saiga .308 ftw....

Too damned heavy and long.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Too damned heavy and long.

16 inch tube?

 

[Marine Cpl]

16 inch tube?

You can separate an AR for transport. You can't really with an AK. Plus, it's 2 lbs heavier.