14 inch barrel = legal?

stuck in ny · Jan 31, 2017

hoodfu said:
I'm not understanding. The shockwave isn't an AOW in NY State or federally. They do have another model that has a forward grip though which IS an AOW if that's what you're talking about. You can have that in NY but you'd need the NFA tax stamp and it goes on your NY pistol license. A bunch of people in NY including downstate have those.

ITS NOT AN AOW!!! AOW is < 26"!

Blimey · Jan 31, 2017

Gunner57 said:
The 14″ Mossberg 500 That ISN’T NFA! | Shockwave Technologies

So it looks like hoodfu earlier in the thread was right even though he got some flak, undeserved. At the very least his arguments are compelling and the earlier mocking attempts from one member in the thread to shut that down weren't helpful (nor accurate).

NY might still screw you over it, but that also doesn't mean they are following the law if you get arrested.

Marine Cpl · Jan 31, 2017

hoodfu said:
I'm not understanding. The shockwave isn't an AOW in NY State or federally. They do have another model that has a forward grip though which IS an AOW if that's what you're talking about. You can have that in NY but you'd need the NFA tax stamp and it goes on your NY pistol license. A bunch of people in NY including downstate have those.

Wrong choice of words. It's not a AOW since it isn't 26 inches. But it is a firearm via federal definition and if the federal definition is defaulted to, then it is illegal in NYS.

Penal Law 265

S 265.01-b Criminal possession of a firearm.

A person is guilty of criminal possession of a firearm when he or she:
(1) possesses any firearm or; (2) lawfully possesses a firearm prior to the effective date of the chapter of the laws of two thousand thirteen which added this section subject to the registration requirements of subdivision sixteen-a of section 400.00 of this chapter and knowingly fails to register such firearm pursuant to such subdivision.

Criminal possession of a firearm is a class E felony.

Eddie Gunks · Jan 31, 2017

hoodfu said:
I'm not understanding. The shockwave isn't an AOW in NY State or federally. They do have another model that has a forward grip though which IS an AOW if that's what you're talking about. You can have that in NY but you'd need the NFA tax stamp and it goes on your NY pistol license. A bunch of people in NY including downstate have those.

The aow goes on the permit or the shockwave? I realize the SW is over 26 inches. But not sure how ny thinks about it.

I am all for tranfering all these toys. Just trying to cya. I asked a local cop to find me a case law or pistol definition. Again as a cya. I get it.....i just dont want to pay a lwayer or get jammed up with my ffl

hoodfu · Jan 31, 2017

Bullet Guy said:
The aow goes on the permit or the shockwave? I realize the SW is over 26 inches. But not sure how ny thinks about it.

I am all for tranfering all these toys. Just trying to cya. I asked a local cop to find me a case law or pistol definition. Again as a cya. I get it.....i just dont want to pay a lwayer or get jammed up with my ffl

The AOW (not the shockwave) goes on the NY permit because it's under 26" and meets the NY definition of a firearm. Realistically I don't think we'll know how NYSP thinks about this until a few FFLs start calling them about it.

Eddie Gunks · Jan 31, 2017

hoodfu said:
. Realistically I don't think we'll know how NYSP thinks about this until a few FFLs start calling them about it.

I am a firm beliver yhat yhe NYSP are not the ones to ask. They dont make policy.

A lawyer is who you need to ask. Atleast a lawyer will be with you.....,on your side, In court. Yhe cop will be against you in court.

Always remember.....the police can never help you in court. Nothing they say can be used to help you......only used against you

hoodfu · Feb 1, 2017

Bullet Guy said:
I am a firm beliver yhat yhe NYSP are not the ones to ask. They dont make policy.

You're correct by the letter of the law, but not in our twisted reality. The Rossi Ranch Hand is completely legal by the letter of the law in NY to have as pistol on your pistol license. The NYSP however has told Rossi that they can't be sold here, although it seems some have made it through to civilians. It says they're illegal in NY on their website. The shockwave is also legal by the letter of the law but if the NYSP says to FFLs that they can't sell it to civlians, then that's the end of the story.

pmcjuryny · Apr 27, 2017

Bullet Guy said:
Forget the fed. Definition of a firearm.

Ny defines it as:

S 265.00 Definitions.
As used in this article and in article four hundred, the following
terms shall mean and include:

3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having
one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle
having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d)
any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or
otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches;

S 265.01 Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree.
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth
degree when:
(1) He or she possesses any firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic
stun gun, gravity knife, switchblade knife, pilum ballistic knife, metal
knuckle knife, cane sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, plastic knuckles,
metal knuckles, chuka stick, sand bag, sandclub, wrist-brace type
slingshot or slungshot, shirken or "Kung Fu s

You need to include the definition of those items if you want to correctly understand the law. From pl265.00.12

12. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade,
and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned
and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun
shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a
single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

If there is no stock, it wasn't designed or intended to be fired from the shoulder, so it does not meet the definition of a shotgun per nys law.

So unless you are claiming it is a pistol, revolver, a short rifled, a machine gun, or suppressor it does not meet the nys definition of a firearm.

And unless you are claiming it somehow meets the definition of electronic dart gun, electronic stun gun, gravity knife, switchblade knife, pilum ballistic knife, metal knuckle knife, cane sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, plastic knuckles,
metal knuckles, chuka stick, sand bag, sandclub, wrist-brace type
slingshot or slungshot, shirken or "Kung Fu s, cpw 4th doesn't apply, because it isn't a shotgun.

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Bushmaster · Apr 27, 2017

freddy said:
Here you go...

Two of them, lol, thats just crazy lol

Marine Cpl · Apr 27, 2017

freddy said:
Good debate on the following Long Island firearm site. Looks like FFL's in NYS are selling these without pistol permit. I know firsthand there are FFL's here that will accept a transfer.

Read this: new Mossberg pump- legal in New York? - Pump [Shotguns]

What do you think BG, willjr, hoodfu?

They aren't pistols, rifles, or shotguns. They are nothing under NYS law. Under federal law they are considered just generic firearms.

All firearms are Illegal in NYS. Whether a District Attorney can use the federal definition for a conviction, I do not know.

Some FFL's sell them. Others do not. From a covering of an ass standpoint, if I was an FFL, I would not sell one due to not knowing if NYS can really default to the federal definition of firearm since theirs does not cover this.

pmcjuryny · Apr 27, 2017

Willjr75 said:
They aren't pistols, rifles, or shotguns. They are nothing under NYS law. Under federal law they are considered just generic firearms.

All firearms are Illegal in NYS. Whether a District Attorney can use the federal definition for a conviction, I do not know.

Some FFL's sell them. Others do not. From a covering of an ass standpoint, if I was an FFL, I would not sell one due to not knowing if NYS can really default to the federal definition of firearm since theirs does not cover this.

They can only use the federal definition if nys doesn't define the term. Given that nys has a definition of firearm in the penal code, they can not use the federal definition to charge you with a nys law violation.

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Marine Cpl · Apr 27, 2017

pmcjuryny said:
They can only use the federal definition if nys doesn't define the term. Given that nys has a definition of firearm in the penal code, they can not use the federal definition to charge you with a nys law violation.

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So what would happen if you open carried this to a post office. Firearms are Illegal in post offices. A local or state cop responds and arrests you. What can he charge you with? You clearly violated federal law.

He'd have to charge you federally?

pmcjuryny · Apr 27, 2017

Willjr75 said:
So what would happen if you open carried this to a post office. Firearms are Illegal in post offices. A local or state cop responds and arrests you. What can he charge you with? You clearly violated federal law.

He'd have to charge you federally?

Unless there is a state law that prohibits carrying a gun into a post office, it would be a violation of federal law, and there for the federal definition of firearm would apply, and any charges filed would be federal charges.

It's pretty straight forward, if you are dealing with nys law, use the definition provided by nys law. If you are dealing with federal law, use the definition found in federal law.

Don't mix and match unless nys fails to define a term, then and only them, you may fall back on the federal definition, assuming there is one.
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Marine Cpl · Apr 27, 2017

Ok. So according to NYS law, it isn't a firearm. I can then open carry this weapon anywhere I please. Walmart, the police station, ect.

pmcjuryny · Apr 27, 2017

I'm not aware of any gun related charge they could bring against you, but if nothing else "disturbing the peace" and "disorderly conduct" are always good catch all I'm sure they would be happy to use.

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stuck in ny · Apr 27, 2017

Ok. so I'm probably just an idiot, but how can we not own the 14" not-shotgun or the franklin ar not-sbr but we can still own the 18+" pgo? Whats the difference between other and firearm.

Marine Cpl · Apr 27, 2017

stuck in ny said:
Ok. so I'm probably just an idiot, but how can we not own the 14" not-shotgun or the franklin ar not-sbr but we can still own the 18+" pgo? Whats the difference between other and firearm.

According to the NY laws as written, the pistol grip only shotgun should be illegal as well if it's a firearm or able to be sold at 7eleven without a background check if it isn't considered a firearm. They sell them here incorrectly as a shotgun even though they weren't designed to be fired from the shoulder.

pmcjuryny · Apr 27, 2017

Willjr75 said:
According to the NY laws as written, the pistol grip only shotgun should be illegal as well if it's a firearm or able to be sold at 7eleven without a background check if it isn't considered a firearm. They sell them here incorrectly as a shotgun even though they weren't designed to be fired from the shoulder.

No they don't sell them as shotguns. They sell them correctly as other. Just because a given gun doesn't meet the nys definition of firearm doesn't mean you can buy them without a dealer. Every rifle and shotgun that gets sold is sold at a dealer, but none of them are considered "firearms" according to state law.

Pgo shotguns are sold and transfered the same way stripped receivers are, at a dealer, transfered as other. Transfer of "other" guns/receivers have to be to a person 21 or older, but they are not considered handguns, so no pistol permit is required in ny.

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Marine Cpl · Apr 27, 2017

pmcjuryny said:
No they don't sell them as shotguns. They sell them correctly as other. Just because a given gun doesn't meet the nys definition of firearm doesn't mean you can buy them without a dealer. Every rifle and shotgun that gets sold is sold at a dealer, but none of them are considered "firearms" according to state law.

Pgo shotguns are sold and transfered the same way stripped receivers are, at a dealer, transfered as other. Transfer of "other" guns/receivers have to be to a person 21 or older, but they are not considered handguns, so no pistol permit is required in ny.

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That's great news. So that means that the Franklin Armory AR is good to go?

pmcjuryny · Apr 27, 2017

I can't find anything in the law that prohibits it, can you?

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stuck in ny · Apr 27, 2017

Can a shotgun be manufactured by the individual into a pgo, provided length is 26+?
If it can be than what's the point of the 21 thing if you can just make it from a shotgun you can buy at 18?

Marine Cpl · Apr 27, 2017

pmcjuryny said:
I can't find anything in the law that prohibits it, can you?

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No. Only the federal definition of firearm but in there is where the differences of opinion lie. (Not necessarily me) I actually want to agree with you.

Phazer · Apr 27, 2017

14 inch barrel = legal?

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