No it doesnt assume 100yd zero, zero where ever you want and also input weather for the day you zero. First screen tap on the block that shows gun data, scope data and round data. Second screen tap on scope data. Then tap on zero distance
3 new production class PRS rifles
- Thread starter Podmonkey
- Start date
Where should I zero I wonder? I did a typical 50/200 yard zero, verified at 200 (need correction actually) but that is an iron sight/RDS thing. I wonder if I shouldn't zero at 100 yards instead. For th 77gr, POI for 55gr isnthe same at 100 and 200 regardless. That's why I plink with 55gr.
Zero at the distance you shoot at the most. Doest really matter what distance its at because if your velocity is right your turret clicks or the reticle will give you where you should be short or long of your zero. Me,,,,I would zero at one of these,,, 50, 100 or 200.
Here is a link to help you with bullet lengths. Correct velocity matters the most.
JBM - Bullet Length List
JBM - Bullet Length List
You talk about 77gr and 55 gr...... Zero with one of them and then shoot the other and see where it hits. Then put the correction in the app for that particular round. You can put both rounds in the app. Say you zero with 77. You then go back into the app and start a new cartridge, at the bottom of the page after putting in BC, velocity etc it says Zero Offset,,,this is where you make your corrections for the second round.
Now that I have the app with my reticle I can.
However what I gave done was to simply zero at 200 with the 77gr Mk262 load and zeroed out the turrets. Then I zeroed again at 100 with the 55gr HP frontier stuff that my rifle seems to like pretty well. I made note the vertical and horizontal turret adjustments so I can go back and forth between the two at will. The main problem with the SM1 reticle is that there are no stadia to work with for hold unders, just the top of the ring. But I got this scope to pair up with a light and handy carbine for fast shooting. It's a little imprecise on paper but when I move to any kind of dynamic shooting its great. My favorite thing to do is I set up one of those polyurethane self sealing cube things at the bottom of the 100 yard line which has a good slope to it. I'll shoot low and try to bark it up the slope then catch it back on the downward roll, all at 90 to 100 yards. It's a lot of fun and the rifle scope combo works beautifully for that. The Kahles 1-6 has an outstanding FOV that makes it very easy to track moving targets. I also like to switch up my target work, alternating between the 25 yard and 100 yard line every other shot, or I'll double tap the 25 and move to the hundred. If no one else is there I'll traverse from one lane to the next too.
Anything to keep things lively. Or sometimes I'll just blow up canned goods. Technically not supposed to shoot cans but I pick up after myself and no says anything. I did once launch a soda can up to an absurd altitude.
Here is one more thing you need to do as well as I. Its the tall target test. It makes sure your turrets are moving the reticle the right distance on each click and that your scope is actually level. You should have a level on your scope pertaining to your reticle to do this test. This test is not that important if you dont shoot past 100yds.
I did the tracking test. @meketrefe and several other members explained the process to me in a much earlier thread. The Kahles tracks true. I would have been seriously pissed if it hadn't, what with the cost of that thing.
Welllllll, you are ahead of me. I started off with my scope on a 204,,,got it all sighted in and everything added to the App for my reloads,,,only to decide to put the scope on my new gun,,,,now I'm waiting for ammo. Suppose to be at my house when I get home from work today. Not on call this weekend so I'm hoping I can get everything sighted in and velocity tested with the manufactured ammo I'm using. Maybe I will even get the tall target test done,,,who knows. Rain seems to come every time I start trying to do something. Guess now would be a good time to check the weather.
I thought those .204s shot as flat as a lazer beam? What do you need Strelok for?
I thought those .204s shot as flat as a lazer beam? What do you need Strelok for?
It actually does shoot as flat as a laser beam. My problem or excuse is that I didnt want my 6x24 power scope on the 204 because I use it for coyote hunting at night. Its a centerfire caliber that is small enough to be used during deer season in shotgun only areas legally. So I needed another gun for chuck hunting that I could put my high power scope on. Could of put it on my 223 but like I said I used an excuse,,,,,to buy a new rifle
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Having an adjustment mechanism that tracks well is not just about being precise but if there is an error in the scale make sure it is always reproduced every single time. Once you know the difference and you know the scope mechsnism is consistent and it always comes back to the same place then you can work with that.
Well, I had the scope mounted professionally. They lapped the rings, leveled it proper and bore sighted it for me. $30.
When I did the tracking test I used an Army zeroing grid target. Vertical and horizontal adjustments were true and the final group landed right atop the initial.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I have some questions if that is not too much and you know the answers:
How many times did you repeat the process and what was the spread?
What rail system and mounts/rings do you have?
How did they lapped the rings?
I am pretty skeptical in nature and "professionally mounted" is no exception.
perhaps because I have seen simple things done wrong more times than done right including some pretty basic stuff.
Sometimes you have to play detective Colombo and review your notes with the glossy eye to find out something stupid
was missed or even not considered.
Proper calibration is a pretty thorough thing, no complex, just thorough.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I've always been skeptical about ring lapping. Never quite understood the benefit. I understand the concept and process but never believed it was helpful.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I actually went ahead and watched this video.
Not too bad but he is missing a few things.
Anyone who has seen this video and had some time practicing and thinking about their results what
is missing on this video?
I am asking so we make folks think and put some opinions and there are several possibilities.
And if you are reading this thread at a later date stop here and take your time to think before you keep reading.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
It is needed when the rail or mount, ring quality, ring selection (mismatching) and even scope are not true but it can happen if quality components are poorly mounted too.
If you start with top shelf components properly mounted, there is not needed. we consider anything below 1 tor 1/2 of a thousand of an inch and below a pretty good true setup.
Even factory cut rails are not true because the receivers might be heat treated after cutting and the metal moves with the treatment.
It is not that uncomon in ARs, bolt action rifles, carbines, etc...
That is why high end builders do finishing milling after heat treating.
That is why a top quality receiver alone w/o anything else might cost 1,200 bucks.
It doesn't mean there are not pretty accurate budget rifles (in fact there are) but there are more variables to worry and the rifle is just one small part of the equation.
the road to consistency and "Always on" repeatability is not an easy or super cheap one.
northny
.40 S&W
He didn’t check the horizontal tracking of the scope which would happen with traditional boxing of a scope. But not necessary here as you hold into wind not dial it in. So he could have held five mils or mins into wind and checked the calibration of lines in reticle.
What I think he got wrong was moving the level on the second rifle to correct for failure to track vertically on the line. This would only work if error was due to canting the rifle because the level was installed wrong. But if the scope was installed with crosshairs slightly off vertical and plumb while crosshairs were directly above center of bore ( so rifle was level or not canted) you would get a small windage change when making large (30”) elevation change. In that case changing level position would cause you to cant the rifle. I’m not sure one would cancel out the other at all distances? It would work at the one distance he was shooting.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Makes sense. I lile your thinking.
Lets hope others chime in and we give time for folks to think before we bring up other problems with his methodology.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Exactly. You need to tske the customer to the tailor otherwise it is not a good start.Q: How does a professional with different facial features and eye relief set up a customers scope?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Any other Observations or ideas??
$2.2k isn't horrendous compared to what some high-end custom builds go for. It sort of splits the difference between some affordable, entry-level precision offerings from Ruger, FN and Remington which can be had for ~$1k-$1.4k and the custom high-end rifles that start at $4k and go up from there.
But the relevant question is: how much extra performance do these $2.2k rifles offer over say a Remington 700 5r, Ruger PR or a FN SPR? The latter can be had for $1k cheaper and are easily sub MOA, in some cases under 3/4 MOA, out of the box. I guess part of that decision comes down to subjective preference.
6.5cm is a great cartridge; it can hit paper beyond 1k yards, but ultimately its outclassed by other cartridges at that distance.
And quite honestly, there are very few opportunities in NY where you can get much beyond 700-800 yards. At those distances, 6.5cm will still have a slight advantage in terms of bullet drop, but either one (6.5cm or .308) will work just fine.
Talking to some of the local PR gunsmiths, it generally isn't needed if you are using high-end precision matched rings.
I don't know about the other two but the Hancock has a 1/2 MOA guarantee.
But you are right, the various models from the big guys can offer similar performance.
But the cost isn't a big difference either. An RPR is more than $1,500 right? Most of the the guns like the RPR are already pretty close to these three which to make production class must be under $2k. And they are "nicer" running on custom actions that use controlled feed and fixed ejectors.
As for the cartridge, I may opt for 6mm Creed but I don't plan on competing and even if I did I would only be at the low level so the cartridge wouldn't really matter. The top guys use dedicated competition cartridges like the various 6mm bench cartridges like 6mm Dasher and the hand load. I am not interested in handloading.
1/2 MOA guarantees are nice, but mostly pointless unless you are planning at competing at the very top tiers of PRS or comparable leagues. 1-3/4 MOA is perfectly acceptable for most long range shooting...I'd argue even for the average PRS competitor. Or to phrase it another way: I'd be more inclined to spend several hundred $ on a good scope, better ammo and more range time than I would to transition from a 1 MOA rifle to a 1/2 MOA rifle.
That said, if the 1/2 MOA guarantee simply appeals to you, that's totally understandable...go ahead and spend your money as you see fit.
For pricing, there is still a huge leap between what I'd consider very competent factory offerings (FN SPR, RPR, Remington 5r) and these semi-custom rifles. RPR can easily be found for $1.1-$1.2k on GB. FN SPR can be as well, if you wait for good deals or buy used.
Perhaps the actions on these $2.2k rifles "feel" nicer and perhaps are they are slightly more accurate....I just don't know if that warrants an additional $1k over what are already very well-built factory rifles. Again, that's a subjective call....there is no right or wrong answer. Sort of like buying sports cars....at a certain price point, the increase in performance is negligible and the added $ spent equates to intangible factors (driving feel, build quality, curb appeal).
I'd say get whatever cartridge is available and cheap for your given area. 6.5cm can be found in most stores. .308 is even more common. Both are comparable in terms of pricing. I don't keep my eyes open for 6mm, so I can't comment on its pricing or availability.
However, cartridge selection for the average shooter is mostly a moot point. Both .308 or 6.5cm will get you on target, assuming the shooter does his/her job. 6.5cm has somewhat less recoil, which can aid in shot consistency. .308 is a little bit easier on the barrel (longer barrel life). Neither cartridge is some magical projectile that will allow you to make difficult shots....practice will be a bigger deciding factor than will cartridge selection (at least when comparing .308 and 6.5cm).
You keep saying 2.2k, they are $1,995. To meet the sub $2,000 limit for the PRS production class.
The extra feature of these semi custom rifles appeal to me so I'd spend the extra.
Even though I don't intend to compete I do find the the 2k rifle, 2k scope limits a convenient benchmark to shoot for. Therefore I'd glass it with something like the Gen 1 Razor HD 5-20 that comes in just under the limit.
As for caliber, yeah 6.5 creed is probably the better choice, but the low recoil and laser flat trajectory of the 6mm intrigues me. I have always been fascinated with 6mm rifle cartridges.
The 308 I already have in the Galil and will have (someday) that uber sexy LMT MWS Sniper.
For a semi automatic barrel life is a concern. For me. I think nothing of shooting 1k rounds in a day.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Hi Upstate43.
The sub 2K and even some 1K(sub 1K) rifles can produce great groups but the real difference between those good rifles and a great rifle
that can be used for competition is pure consistency and repeatability.
For this role, the production rifles PR, SPR, and specially the 5R are not good no matter if they are 1k, 2k 2.2k or whatever.
The first order of business is to take them apart and to true all the components starting from the receiver that is the first thing
a high end builder will do with a remington receiver.
Then it comes the barrel that is indexed and cut with zero tolerances and chambered A) either to precise SAAMI or B) to specific casing
like the BR and Fclass shooters do (Headspaced and throated to the actual ammunition) and something factories cannot do.
But in the end no matter if one ends up dumping 3 or 4k in a nice rifle, if one is serious about having a chance in competition the rifle
itself is going to be the smallest investment of all. Glass, equipment, and practice, cost of trips, professional training is going to be a much bigger investment.
This subject has been beaten to a pulp and I know this is not the goal of many people who are happy with producing some pretty cherry picked
tight groups and go home with a smile in the face.
So for this purpose there are a few rifles not mentioned that are probably the best buy for the accuracy enthusiast.
Number one is the Savage LRP ( a classic ) or the XP LR (Excluding the predator model) as well as some other variants very simllar and well priced
in the sub 1K category. These out of the box beat any other alternative with the caveat that some of the chassis (excluding the LRP) must be
put in the trash just like Any and all remingtons in that price class.
The thing with those Savage models is that they have the strongest possible tube action with the small shank. The ejection port is cut vs an open action on the top so it is the strongest of all the rifles and the floating bolt head is a plus so with a PTG one there is no need to lap anything.
The 700 R5 is a good rifle but again, the problem is that it needs to be taken apart and then trued, lapped, reworked and the barrel might or might not work and while you are at it will probably trash the stock system.
In this area there is another rifle that is rarely mentioned that is a Remington 700 blue print but it beats the remington at everything in terms of action quality and features that is the Bergara. It comes with features found in rifles that are x3 times that price tag yet there are pretty decently priced.
You have a savage type extractor but at 42 degree angle, side bolt release, integrated recoil lug, Timmey trigger from factory, pretty true for a factory rifle and bergara barrels are in reality shilen match and supermatch barrels. (they are actually partners with them)
Still no matter what option one will need to rework certain aspects to make it a better rifle and an integrated recoil lug and integrated (trued) rail
is going to be mandatory.
I tend to stay away from Ruger because so far it has been a hit and miss situation and they are not there yet. If one can overcome the coolness factor the Savage and Remington are hard to beat in terms of baseline for anything one needs. Both time and battle tested. The Bergara is in fact the evolution of what the next R700 should be. There are obviously other amazing R700 blueprints but you are talking 1K-1.5K for the blueprinted action alone. Again it might be peanuts in the great scheme of things.
The Tikka is also another rifle with a pretty robust action and a great baseline to work with. Not the same amazing aftermarket of Savage or R700 but is gaining more ground every day.
Regarding the cartridges the 6mm and 6.5mm are great for paper punching and making steel ring as soon as you don't have to score on heavy targets.
As soon as you loose points due to the lack of momentum at long range then you will see more the 30 cals and specially the 7mm in short magnum version.
Some competitions are accommodating the tactical matches with lighter targets so people can compete with the 6.5 and 6mm that are easier to shoot and master and therefore people are more accurate with them on average.
But when momentum is needed that is why also in certain tactical matches and service long range rifles are going to remain 30 and 33 calibers.
Beyond 1K people can dream all day but factory rifles and budgets alike are not realistic.
Lets just say that if one is worried about the cost of a factory rifle then 1K competition is probably just to have some fun and nothing serious.
For the occasional shooting and if one is going to be spending some money in high end ammo and/or bullets the 308 itself using CNC bullets and latest powders one can produce similar trajectories and range as any of the 6mm or 6.5mm popular calibers yet it will put more momentum in the target and shot from a shorter barrel. With many places going lead free
I would not get rid of the 308 just yet because it might be a better caliber at any distance and just because leadfree bullets in 6mm and 6.5mm max out quicly being too light and too long for the popular twists whereas a typical 10 twist of a 308 is just perfect for those 150-160gr CNC bullets.
I agree in upstate ny there are not many places to shoot long range and even less tactical targets heavy or not. Best thing is to join a professional training program and be ready to travel around to their designated courses that will be insured and monitored for your enjoyment.
That is why the rifle, even an expensive one might be the less costly part one needs to acquire.
Most people who want to learn how to shoot well might learn more with a good 223 rifles and match loads and 500 to 700 yards than with anything else.
The more one shoots the better and a cost effective yet accurate round will help shoot more with the same or lower budget.
I know the search is not great but there is great info written before. I hope this helps.
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meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
OK here is the deal. Like others observed he missed a few important things.
I have only respect for Applied Ballistics but here they could have done a better job with both the setup and methodology.
IMHO he missed the following things:
- Trying to do first calibration prone in a so-so location and terrain is not the best idea. Instead go to a club with a nice solid leveled
bench where distances are true and do not try to measure with range finder or a tape unless someone helps with the tape to stretch
it an to be dead on but many clubs normally have marks on the benches so you know exactly the distance from the bore or the
glass. (not the same distance since there could be up to 2ft difference)
- The methodology can be done in Yards and MOA but I encourage to use the metric system since there is less chance of error during
conversion. It is ok for those with MOA stadias and turrets but if you have mixed Units of measure between range, stadia and turrets then
go with metric and convert your stadia or turrets to metric first. (simple table).
- You will need at least 3 to 5 vertical lines for each iteration but with one target one could do more than one iteration by using places
for zero and two lines across with a scale to verify windage.
- The reason is that you want to do all possible movements of the scope to detect if there is any give in the threads of the mechanism
whether you come increasing or you past you correction and come back decreasing so the correction ends up in the precise same point.
you have to do this in several iterations so you can replicate all these moments. you might also do several squares and run them both
ways clock and counter-clock wise. You do this several times each to confirm either there is an error and account for the input shooter
error.
- It is not clear the scope in the 2nd rifle was properly installed so they should talk about how to make sure the bore and the stadia are
in the same axis this means you might want to use that nice bench for the rifle, strap it down securely and using a boresighter and
a masonry plumb one can first make sure everything is perfectly leveled before talking about potentially adjust scope levels. I like those
laser plumbs that can be setup anywhere and give you a perfect line. I don't think a carpenters level is as accurate as that.
- One has to account how far the scope is from the mechanical zero (to the actual) as this might be a sign of something wrong with the scope, the action, the barrel, the mounts of a combination of them or all.
In any case, what if the rifle bore has a minor run out. It will show up so then the problem is you need to compensate for the lateral
cant and make sure you can repeat that when running a long veritcal line.
I don't let anyone install or readjust my rifles. It takes a long time to get it right and most people do not do it because A) don't know how to
B) Don't have the equipment and time C) They actually do not need it for the average shooting or go hunting.
...there is more but just some quick thoughts.
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So a FN SPR is no good for competition because it lacks consistency and repeatability? You lost me there. It's a very well-built rifle...not a custom-built, but certainly good enough for competition and LE/military work. I'm sure the same results can be wrung out of a stock Remington 5r and RPR.
You could take some of these factory rifles apart and true them, but quite honestly these stock rifles are capable of greater accuracy than is the average, or even above average, shooter. Meaning that in most cases, the operator behind the rifle will be the limiting factor, not the rifle itself.
You don't need to break the bank to "get into" long range precision shooting. You don't need a custom rifle. You don't need to spend above $2k on a scope. You don't need every component to be fine-tuned by a gunsmith.....you just don't unless you are at the top tier of competition. Arguably the average person is better off spending more money on ammo rather than spending it on a high-end rifle.