Army Chief : Infantry Needs New Rifle !
- Thread starter GOYABEAN
- Start date
Phazer
.338 Win Mag
So....the U.S. is going to start manufacturing or buying AKs?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Such nonsense. They just don't want to be left behind again by the Marines and in the end, they'll adopt the M27 or keep the M4.
GOYABEAN
.950 JDJ
It's not PC
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
"Sen. Angus King, I-Maine, asked if the new bullet will require a new rifle.
Milley said, "It might but probably not," adding that weapons can be chambered for various calibers.
However, the M4 would require a new barrel, bolt carrier group, buffer system in addition to a new lower receiver to shoot 7.62mm ammo, experts maintain."
That is pretty much the whole gun. He later says the cartridge would be compatible with existing Nato guns, so that would be a .308, OOP's there goes the rest of the gun General!
6.8 would fill the bill with a barrel and bolt change over, the rest of the gun is good to go, well, new mag's would be in order. Heck selling the surplus .556 barrels and bolts would help defray the cost, that and the sale of the twenty and thirty round mags in the free states, if done right, might even turn a profit.
Robin
Milley said, "It might but probably not," adding that weapons can be chambered for various calibers.
However, the M4 would require a new barrel, bolt carrier group, buffer system in addition to a new lower receiver to shoot 7.62mm ammo, experts maintain."
That is pretty much the whole gun. He later says the cartridge would be compatible with existing Nato guns, so that would be a .308, OOP's there goes the rest of the gun General!
6.8 would fill the bill with a barrel and bolt change over, the rest of the gun is good to go, well, new mag's would be in order. Heck selling the surplus .556 barrels and bolts would help defray the cost, that and the sale of the twenty and thirty round mags in the free states, if done right, might even turn a profit.
Robin
Isn't the 6.8 a somewhat short and fat bullet? Not exactly the best platform for AP. I really think a long, heavy 6mm would cure most of today's small arms ails.
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
I have a few hundred of them sitting here and they don't look short and fat to me. Yes, there are any number of 6.plus mm's that would be better than the .22 and most have been tested and argued over for at least the last ten years. Seems the 6.8 always wins out as a superior cartridge when held against them, using 'military' overall requirements.
Robin
Robin
GOYABEAN
.950 JDJ
6.8 would fill the bill with a barrel and bolt change over, the rest of the gun is good to go, well, new mag's would be in order. Heck selling the surplus .556 barrels and bolts would help defray the cost, that and the sale of the twenty and thirty round mags in the free states, if done right, might even turn a profit.
Robin[/QUOTE]
Don't forget were talking Washington here
Robin[/QUOTE]
Don't forget were talking Washington here
I disagree, I think the 6.5 Grendal outperforms the 6.8 SPC at every turn.
I wanna see something like a 100gr or so true 6mm. I think such a round can fill both the roles of the 5.56 and 7.62. This cumbersome light/heavy split is unnecessary with modern tech.
Kent Goldings
.357 mag
Think he must be angling for the 300 BLK. But, they must have billions of 5.56 squirreled away with hundreds of thousands of full-auto capable rifles chambered for it. I doubt they'll just dump those onto the civilian market.
But, who knows...
But, who knows...
The 300blk is just so niche though! .30 is not the answer people! Resurrect the 6mm! The Navy in 1895 had it right all along, just shrink it down some!
Kent Goldings
.357 mag
The Army is just so invested in 5.56... I wonder if this guy has stock in Remington.
We were invested in the 30-06 for a long time too.
Kent Goldings
.357 mag
Sure, but we had a major war and a couple regional conflicts to thin the stocks.
It's not the surplus ammo. I'm sure they could find people to buy it. The rifles are another problem. What do you do with a couple hundred thousand non-street legal rifles?
The logical thing to do would be to convert them to semi and give em to the CMP. But the gov't isn't logical.
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
And right on cue, the Grendal rears its pointy little head!!! Not laughing at you Podmonkey, its just that The Grendal is always the one compared to the 6.8 at the end of the day. I'll just say, by military standards the 6.8 SPC comes out on top and refer you to , Home of the 6.8 SPC - 68forums.comAnd to be fair, 6.5 Grendel Forum : : For the 6.5 Grendel Aficionado
I have chewed this meat too much already, so I'll just say I prefer the 6.8 SPC, and believe any of the 6 mm variants would be superior to the .22.
Robin
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
6.5, 6.8, all rifles going to.308 ain't gonna happen. Mark my words. There's no need for it. Besides, speed penetrates vests. Not grain.
This general has no clue on what he's talking about.
This general has no clue on what he's talking about.
I'm just sayin' ballistically it can reach out far enough to replace the 7.62 reasonable well and the 6.8 can't. And I will always maintain that it makes no sense to replace the 5.56 and keep the 7.62. Like I said, heavy 6mm in a small package is where its at.
And to be fair, 6.5 Grendel Forum : : For the 6.5 Grendel Aficionado
I have chewed this meat too much already, so I'll just say I prefer the 6.8 SPC, and believe any of the 6 mm variants would be superior to the .22.
View attachment 13713
Robin
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I agree. Replace all with the Grendal or replace none. You get no benefit going from 5.56 to 6.8 if the specialty weapons are already chambered in .308
So what's the smallest case we could launch a 100 some grain 6mm out of at around 2500fps? I'm going with the Grendal "start slow, end fast" theory here.
Gotta keep the recoil low. I figure the heavy bullet makes up for the relatively modest velocity. Remember, the .303 British was the slowest, "weakest" .30 battle rifle round but gave up very little if any effectiveness to its peers. Largely, I think, because that 174gr BT pill was quite slippery.
Gotta keep the recoil low. I figure the heavy bullet makes up for the relatively modest velocity. Remember, the .303 British was the slowest, "weakest" .30 battle rifle round but gave up very little if any effectiveness to its peers. Largely, I think, because that 174gr BT pill was quite slippery.
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See this is where @meketrefe and @dsdmmat need to come in.
What do you guys think is the lightest caliber possible that can maintain effective fire out to 600-700 meters in a rifle and 1000 meters machinegun?
What do you guys think is the lightest caliber possible that can maintain effective fire out to 600-700 meters in a rifle and 1000 meters machinegun?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
A 90 gr Grendal goes at about the same velocity as a 62 gr 5.56 from a 14.5 inch barrel. Just saying.
If we could get a 6mm of similar weight at a similar velocity imagine how well it would retain that velocity. Give it a very pronounced rearward weight bias and a heavy, fragile cannelure and it would just grenade in a soft target. Keep the base solid and stout for deep penetration ala the mk318 SOST and it would be a very versatile round. A full on AP construction may very well be sick against light armor.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I got an idea. How about just keeping everything as it is and just changing the bullet to a 62 gr solid copper TSX that still goes over 3000 fps from a 20 inch and expands to .50 caliber.
Cause I can't see doing that in an M1 Abrams coax?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Huh?
I'm saying no matter what you do tobthe 5.56 it can't do what the 7.62 can, and vice versa even. But there is sonething somewhere in the middle that can.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
But then the velocity gets cut down to 2700 fps from 3000+ fps. Speed penetrates armor. Grain doesn't.
I'd love to do some testing on this someday. Yes speed does kill armor but its still only part of the equation. You still need enough mass in the projectile or it will just shatter on impact. The ultra high velocity 75mm shell of the German Kwk 42 L/70 (Panther tank main armament)
out penetrated even the fearsome 88mm Kwk 36 of the Tiger but the pokey Russian
122mm A-19 gun had em both beat through sheer mass.
I therfore wonder if a long and narrow hardened 6mm projectile, with such comparatively little frontal area given its mass, wouldn't have at least acceptable performance against hardened targets even at a moderate velocity.