Bananabandit
.338 Win Mag
Why cant we go Chinese and sword their asses?
Army Chief : Infantry Needs New Rifle !
- Thread starter GOYABEAN
- Start date
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
That's super subjective, no? While certainly you could ascertain what the wound channel will be for various rounds at 700 meters, I am not sure that there is a steadfast rule with regard to how big the shock cavity needs to be. I always figured the bigger the shock cavity, the better the chance of a kill shot; but then you hear stories about people walking away from multiple 30 cal wounds. So who knows. Personally - if you want someone dead I would argue that 50 BMG is a fairly guaranteed round.
S
stuck in ny
Guest
Going to a 7.62 short cartage makes no sense. The Eastern Block went to the 74 for a reason.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Grain stops people in their tracks ,.45 for instance. That's what the army needs ,a man stopper round .
At 300 yards its its almost like shooting a .22 at an enemy . If I remember correctly , it begins to drop at about 150 yards. She loses velocity all the way to the target , and starts tumbling soon after, all rounds do , of course, but because of its small weight , it doesn't carry the punch of a larger round.at 300 yards Its still a .22 caliber round. (on steroids) Its true effectiveness is less than 300 in my opinion.
Theres been many cases where the bullets failed to expand at short range , ice-picking through the target with minimal damage, allowing an enemy to fire back after he was struck . Personally I think the Army did soldiers a disservice with the 556. God forbid if our enemy's had vests, we'd have to beat them to death with the rifle. Its time the 556 went quiet into that dark night and retire.
At 300 yards its its almost like shooting a .22 at an enemy . If I remember correctly , it begins to drop at about 150 yards. She loses velocity all the way to the target , and starts tumbling soon after, all rounds do , of course, but because of its small weight , it doesn't carry the punch of a larger round.at 300 yards Its still a .22 caliber round. (on steroids) Its true effectiveness is less than 300 in my opinion.
Theres been many cases where the bullets failed to expand at short range , ice-picking through the target with minimal damage, allowing an enemy to fire back after he was struck . Personally I think the Army did soldiers a disservice with the 556. God forbid if our enemy's had vests, we'd have to beat them to death with the rifle. Its time the 556 went quiet into that dark night and retire.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Did you guys ever see any of that ww2 footage of people getting shot with an 06? they're dead before they hit the ground . No twitching just dead.
The point is, that it is a man stopper. We definitely need a heavier round.
The point is, that it is a man stopper. We definitely need a heavier round.
Last edited:
S
stuck in ny
Guest
So what type of rifle should we use to fire a full power round? AR10,
FAL, G3, other?
FAL, G3, other?
Myths and misconceptions. 5.56 is effective. Just maybe not at particularly long range which doesn't matter since the overwhelming majority of shooters cannot connect at long range anyway.Grain stops people in their tracks ,.45 for instance. That's what the army needs ,a man stopper round .
At 300 yards its its almost like shooting a .22 at an enemy . If I remember correctly , it begins to drop at about 150 yards. She loses velocity all the way to the target , and starts tumbling soon after, all rounds do , of course, but because of its small weight , it doesn't carry the punch of a larger round.at 300 yards Its still a .22 caliber round. (on steroids) Its true effectiveness is less than 300 in my opinion.
Theres been many cases where the bullets failed to expand at short range , ice-picking through the target with minimal damage, allowing an enemy to fire back after he was struck . Personally I think the Army did soldiers a disservice with the 556. God forbid if our enemy's had vests, we'd have to beat them to death with the rifle. Its time the 556 went quiet into that dark night and retire.
People have surived direct hits to the head from full caliber rounds and not bought it. And what is usaully happening on these "dead when he hit the ground" shots is the shock of the hit renders the target unconscious and they bleed to death before the ever wake up.
We shouldn't go back to a "full power" round. We should move to something somewhere in the 6mm range. And for an AR replacement chambered in such I think the SCAR is already a mature design. Maybe improve the stock.
Last edited:
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
When will people learn to research their myths. Dead before they hit the ground. Stop them dead in their tracks. Let's add that the .45 will spin you like a top why don't we?
Come on Holdover. You know better than that. Central nervous hits and vital organ hits like the heart are what do that. Not caliber.
Come on Holdover. You know better than that. Central nervous hits and vital organ hits like the heart are what do that. Not caliber.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Or this is what the Army needs...
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Please, allow me to introduce myself. I was a Marine scout/sniper. I fought in Fallujah, Iraq in Nov 2004 with 1st Battalion, 8th Marines, Alpha Co, 1st plt. I was in the historical “Candy Shop” skirmish. I was also involved in Afghanistan, Liberia, Djibouti, and a slew of other places many people have never heard of. I know what I am talking about and usually stay quiet on many subjects, but the subject of gun control has me irritated . . .
Recently there have been many arguments that the .223 (or 5.56) is a powerful round that civilians cannot handle or is for military/law enforcement use only. I have a personal story to share to the contrary.
This is a true and accurate account of what happened to me and my fellow Marines in a deadly firefight in central Fallujah, Iraq.
I was sitting on a roof top of a two story building, we were pushing south with other units. Our tactics were to move at night and setup in buildings during the day for the fight. Rarely did we move during the day, and if we did, it was not far. The other Marines on the rooftop with me were spotting targets and eliminating them. I noticed a bad guy, with a AK strapped to his back, run out into the middle of an ally about 100yds from me, produce a RPG and take a knee.
This bad guy took a knee and started to aim his RPG at our building. I fired once, hitting him square in the chest. The man stumbled a bit but regained his balance and steadied his weapon. I fired again, again hitting him. But this time, it did not faze him and he was able to touch off that grenade. The explosion rattled the building and injured a Marine below me on the second floor.
The bad guy dropped the RPG once he fired it, got up, and ran down the alley away from me. He still had the AK on his back. I fired again, twice, both times hitting him in his upper thoracic region. He was not phased. My L-T was shooting at him while yelling at his sniper (me) to kill him!
The man started pushing himself up a short wall near the end of the alley way. The wall was maybe 4 1/2ft tall. I decided to take a head shot at about 125yds. I centered the cross-hairs, and squeezed. JUST as the round broke, the man ducked his head, the bullet entered his brain housing group just at the base of the skull, effectively removing the back portion of his dome. I skull capped him.
He stumbled over the wall and fell down behind it, out of my view in the dead space. For a split second, I thought “there…” until I saw him RUNNING away from me, brains leaking from his head! As soon as I saw him, he fell down and did not get up again. It took 5 well aimed rounds to put this guy down. Granted, he was most likely on something, but it still took 4 in the chest, and one head shot to stop this guy. I was not the only Marine to be involved in something like this. Who is to say that an attacker in the U.S. is not “on something?”
Now, is the .223 (5.56) a deadly round? Absolutely! A .22lr is deadly in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. Is it effective? In this Marine’s opinion, no. The .223 is a varmint round, meant to kill targets no larger than a rabbit or coyote. Because of its horrible terminal ballistics and external ballistics, many people build AR’s in other calibers.
Marine: .223 May Not Be Lethal Enough for Civilians - The Truth About Guns
Recently there have been many arguments that the .223 (or 5.56) is a powerful round that civilians cannot handle or is for military/law enforcement use only. I have a personal story to share to the contrary.
This is a true and accurate account of what happened to me and my fellow Marines in a deadly firefight in central Fallujah, Iraq.
I was sitting on a roof top of a two story building, we were pushing south with other units. Our tactics were to move at night and setup in buildings during the day for the fight. Rarely did we move during the day, and if we did, it was not far. The other Marines on the rooftop with me were spotting targets and eliminating them. I noticed a bad guy, with a AK strapped to his back, run out into the middle of an ally about 100yds from me, produce a RPG and take a knee.
This bad guy took a knee and started to aim his RPG at our building. I fired once, hitting him square in the chest. The man stumbled a bit but regained his balance and steadied his weapon. I fired again, again hitting him. But this time, it did not faze him and he was able to touch off that grenade. The explosion rattled the building and injured a Marine below me on the second floor.
The bad guy dropped the RPG once he fired it, got up, and ran down the alley away from me. He still had the AK on his back. I fired again, twice, both times hitting him in his upper thoracic region. He was not phased. My L-T was shooting at him while yelling at his sniper (me) to kill him!
The man started pushing himself up a short wall near the end of the alley way. The wall was maybe 4 1/2ft tall. I decided to take a head shot at about 125yds. I centered the cross-hairs, and squeezed. JUST as the round broke, the man ducked his head, the bullet entered his brain housing group just at the base of the skull, effectively removing the back portion of his dome. I skull capped him.
He stumbled over the wall and fell down behind it, out of my view in the dead space. For a split second, I thought “there…” until I saw him RUNNING away from me, brains leaking from his head! As soon as I saw him, he fell down and did not get up again. It took 5 well aimed rounds to put this guy down. Granted, he was most likely on something, but it still took 4 in the chest, and one head shot to stop this guy. I was not the only Marine to be involved in something like this. Who is to say that an attacker in the U.S. is not “on something?”
Now, is the .223 (5.56) a deadly round? Absolutely! A .22lr is deadly in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. Is it effective? In this Marine’s opinion, no. The .223 is a varmint round, meant to kill targets no larger than a rabbit or coyote. Because of its horrible terminal ballistics and external ballistics, many people build AR’s in other calibers.
Marine: .223 May Not Be Lethal Enough for Civilians - The Truth About Guns
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
combat medic:
I’ve seen a lot of pistol shootings, much more than US police would ever see, and much more than experienced by most medics deploying solely with US personnel. And yet, I have zero, not one single experience, where a single gunshot wound from a 9X19 NATO round killed someone prior to them being able to return fire or flee. This includes people shot in the chest, back, back of the head (one hit behind the left ear) the neck and the face. None.
For those of you who say “just shoot them again,” I would tell you that is actually pretty difficult on a mobile target with cover at 400 meters who is shooting at you. Also, once they get shot they tend to be a little more wary. People are tricky that way. I will never forget the terror of shooting a man, watching the round strike his chest, and then see him lay over a short wall to steady his aim and continue firing at my teammates.
In my experience, the standard NATO combat round pokes 5.56mm holes in both bones and flesh, shattering nothing. It creates minimal bleeding. I know people say it tumbles and yaws, but that isn’t my experience at all. I saw it poke tiny holes in humans and rarely induced hemorrhaging sufficient to cause unconsciousness or uncompensated shock, which is the only result that matters.
On the flip side, having a patient who was shot by a 7.62X51 NATO or larger round was a rarity. Dead people aren’t patients, they are a supply issue. Patients hit with a ZSU aren’t patients either, they are an iron-like odor in the wind.
Take from that what you will. For me, what I learned is, when it comes to combat, shoot the heaviest rifle round I can, shoot at what I can hit, and then shoot it again if I can. I also learned that, in general, multiple organ damage shortens the time a patient is able to compensate for hemorrhagic shock far greater than the effect of a larger wound track in a single organ. And the Ma Deuce is the greatest, most perfect thing ever invented by man.
Unfortunately, the same goes for the 5.56 NATO round. I have yet to witness a single shot quick kill with this round. I even recorded a patient shot from less than three feet away, square in the back of the head, who lived. The round did not exit his body. Yes, he was immediately rendered unconscious and required (might I say exceptional) medical treatment. He was comatose for at least six months after that, but he lived.
But more importantly, in every experience, at ranges from zero (negligent discharges) to 35 yards (my closest, and worst-placed, shot on a person) to 400 yards (our average initial engagement distance in Afghanistan) individuals shot with a single 5.56 NATO round had time to fire, maneuver, or both. Did I see single shots that killed eventually? Yes. Does that matter in combat? Not one damn bit if you are the one they are still shooting at.
Combat Medic's Advice: "Shoot the heaviest rifle round...shoot at what (you) can hit, and then shoot it again" - The Truth About Guns
I’ve seen a lot of pistol shootings, much more than US police would ever see, and much more than experienced by most medics deploying solely with US personnel. And yet, I have zero, not one single experience, where a single gunshot wound from a 9X19 NATO round killed someone prior to them being able to return fire or flee. This includes people shot in the chest, back, back of the head (one hit behind the left ear) the neck and the face. None.
For those of you who say “just shoot them again,” I would tell you that is actually pretty difficult on a mobile target with cover at 400 meters who is shooting at you. Also, once they get shot they tend to be a little more wary. People are tricky that way. I will never forget the terror of shooting a man, watching the round strike his chest, and then see him lay over a short wall to steady his aim and continue firing at my teammates.
In my experience, the standard NATO combat round pokes 5.56mm holes in both bones and flesh, shattering nothing. It creates minimal bleeding. I know people say it tumbles and yaws, but that isn’t my experience at all. I saw it poke tiny holes in humans and rarely induced hemorrhaging sufficient to cause unconsciousness or uncompensated shock, which is the only result that matters.
On the flip side, having a patient who was shot by a 7.62X51 NATO or larger round was a rarity. Dead people aren’t patients, they are a supply issue. Patients hit with a ZSU aren’t patients either, they are an iron-like odor in the wind.
Take from that what you will. For me, what I learned is, when it comes to combat, shoot the heaviest rifle round I can, shoot at what I can hit, and then shoot it again if I can. I also learned that, in general, multiple organ damage shortens the time a patient is able to compensate for hemorrhagic shock far greater than the effect of a larger wound track in a single organ. And the Ma Deuce is the greatest, most perfect thing ever invented by man.
Unfortunately, the same goes for the 5.56 NATO round. I have yet to witness a single shot quick kill with this round. I even recorded a patient shot from less than three feet away, square in the back of the head, who lived. The round did not exit his body. Yes, he was immediately rendered unconscious and required (might I say exceptional) medical treatment. He was comatose for at least six months after that, but he lived.
But more importantly, in every experience, at ranges from zero (negligent discharges) to 35 yards (my closest, and worst-placed, shot on a person) to 400 yards (our average initial engagement distance in Afghanistan) individuals shot with a single 5.56 NATO round had time to fire, maneuver, or both. Did I see single shots that killed eventually? Yes. Does that matter in combat? Not one damn bit if you are the one they are still shooting at.
Combat Medic's Advice: "Shoot the heaviest rifle round...shoot at what (you) can hit, and then shoot it again" - The Truth About Guns
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
The Last 'Big Lie' of Vietnam Kills U. S. Soldiers in Iraq
By Maj. Anthony F. Milavic, USMC (Ret.)
Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html#ixzz4lQiUnfDx
On 12 September 2003, in Ar Ramadi, Iraq elements of the 3rd Battalion, 5th Special Forces Group engaged enemy forces in a firefight. An insurgent was struck in the torso by several rounds of 5.56mm ammunition from their M—4 carbines (this is the current shortened version of the M—16 Service Rifle). He continued to fire his AK—47 and mortally wounded MSgt Kevin N. Morehead, age 33, from Little Rock, Arkansas. The engagement continued with the same insurgent surprising SFC William M. Bennett, age 35, from Seymour, Tennessee from a hiding place and killing him instantly with a three—round burst to the head and neck. SSgt Robert E Springer, threw away his M—4 carbine, drew an obsolete WWI/WWII vintage .45 caliber pistol and killed the insurgent with one shot. A close inspection of the enemy's corpse revealed that he had been hit by seven 5.56 mm rounds in his torso. Also, in this engagement, these soldiers were provided with a commercially produced 5.56mm round of 77—grain weight vice the 62—grain bullets in use by general—purpose forces. Obviously, the larger 5.56mm round was of little consequence. [14.]
These reports are consistent with my own experience during three tours of duty in Vietnam from the goat incident in 1964 described above to service with the 3rd Marine Division in 1968—69; experience that repeatedly reminded me that this 5.56mm cartridge was nothing more than the full—metal jacket military version of the commercial .223 caliber Remington cartridge. The .223 caliber Remington was and is today commercially advertised and sold as a 'varmint cartridge' for hunting groundhogs, prairie dogs and woodchucks. The cartridge is offered with soft point, hollow point, fragmentation, or projectiles incorporating two or more of these attributes to enhance its lethality and assure a 'clean kill': one—round knockdown power on varmints. States such as the Commonwealth of Virginia do not permit it to be used for hunting deer or bear because its lethality—with or without those enhancements——does not assure a 'clean kill' on big game. [15] Yet, its full metal jacket military counterpart continues to be issued to American warriors in spite of almost 40 years of Lessons Learned that enemy soldiers continue to fire their weapons and have even killed our soldiers after sustaining multiple hits from 5.56mm bullets.
The lethality of the 5.56mm cartridge, sold on lies, cannot be fixed in truth. It is time the Department of Defense recognizes this 'Big Lie' from the Vietnam War and in the names of MSgt Kevin N. Morehead and SFC William M. Bennett replaces this varmint cartridge with one that gives our warriors that critical capability described by SFC Paul Howe above——one—round knockdown power!
Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html#ixzz4lQiukVGc
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook
By Maj. Anthony F. Milavic, USMC (Ret.)
Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html#ixzz4lQiUnfDx
On 12 September 2003, in Ar Ramadi, Iraq elements of the 3rd Battalion, 5th Special Forces Group engaged enemy forces in a firefight. An insurgent was struck in the torso by several rounds of 5.56mm ammunition from their M—4 carbines (this is the current shortened version of the M—16 Service Rifle). He continued to fire his AK—47 and mortally wounded MSgt Kevin N. Morehead, age 33, from Little Rock, Arkansas. The engagement continued with the same insurgent surprising SFC William M. Bennett, age 35, from Seymour, Tennessee from a hiding place and killing him instantly with a three—round burst to the head and neck. SSgt Robert E Springer, threw away his M—4 carbine, drew an obsolete WWI/WWII vintage .45 caliber pistol and killed the insurgent with one shot. A close inspection of the enemy's corpse revealed that he had been hit by seven 5.56 mm rounds in his torso. Also, in this engagement, these soldiers were provided with a commercially produced 5.56mm round of 77—grain weight vice the 62—grain bullets in use by general—purpose forces. Obviously, the larger 5.56mm round was of little consequence. [14.]
These reports are consistent with my own experience during three tours of duty in Vietnam from the goat incident in 1964 described above to service with the 3rd Marine Division in 1968—69; experience that repeatedly reminded me that this 5.56mm cartridge was nothing more than the full—metal jacket military version of the commercial .223 caliber Remington cartridge. The .223 caliber Remington was and is today commercially advertised and sold as a 'varmint cartridge' for hunting groundhogs, prairie dogs and woodchucks. The cartridge is offered with soft point, hollow point, fragmentation, or projectiles incorporating two or more of these attributes to enhance its lethality and assure a 'clean kill': one—round knockdown power on varmints. States such as the Commonwealth of Virginia do not permit it to be used for hunting deer or bear because its lethality—with or without those enhancements——does not assure a 'clean kill' on big game. [15] Yet, its full metal jacket military counterpart continues to be issued to American warriors in spite of almost 40 years of Lessons Learned that enemy soldiers continue to fire their weapons and have even killed our soldiers after sustaining multiple hits from 5.56mm bullets.
The lethality of the 5.56mm cartridge, sold on lies, cannot be fixed in truth. It is time the Department of Defense recognizes this 'Big Lie' from the Vietnam War and in the names of MSgt Kevin N. Morehead and SFC William M. Bennett replaces this varmint cartridge with one that gives our warriors that critical capability described by SFC Paul Howe above——one—round knockdown power!
Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html#ixzz4lQiukVGc
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
I have spoke with at least six veterans who have confirmed kills and 5 of them said the exact same thing. the 556 round useally takes more than one hit to stop a man.
they may not mean a lot to you, but But for me its pretty convincing when a few airborne soldiers say they don't like the round. One actualy carried an M14 and said after he hit them , they stood down never once continueing to fight.
Sorry Guys Im not convinced. going to the 6mm ,100+ grain family somewhere seems like the thing to do.
they may not mean a lot to you, but But for me its pretty convincing when a few airborne soldiers say they don't like the round. One actualy carried an M14 and said after he hit them , they stood down never once continueing to fight.
Sorry Guys Im not convinced. going to the 6mm ,100+ grain family somewhere seems like the thing to do.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
""Come on Holdover. You know better than that. Central nervous hits and vital organ hits like the heart are what do that. Not caliber.""
That doesn't always happen in combat though. A close enough hit with a larger caliber will .
That doesn't always happen in combat though. A close enough hit with a larger caliber will .
We got those .308 AR's, why not use those? We also have the Scar-H, as well as the HK417
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
556 vs deer
308 vs deer
06 vs deer
308 vs deer
06 vs deer
Look at my beautiful 06 kill <3
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
There is no way on Gods green earth that a 556 is equal to or better than a 308 or 06, 300 .
A heavier round is going to transfer more energy . why do you think a lot of police depts. went from the 9mm to the 40?
I never had to kill anybody , Im not an expert in ballistics but everything I know from vets and hunters and personal experience . a heavier round in the 6 mm family would be beneficial .
Its a given that hitting a critical area is going to drop a man in 99% of the time . A .22 is still a deadly weapon in the right hands . no argument there.
A heavier round is going to transfer more energy . why do you think a lot of police depts. went from the 9mm to the 40?
I never had to kill anybody , Im not an expert in ballistics but everything I know from vets and hunters and personal experience . a heavier round in the 6 mm family would be beneficial .
Its a given that hitting a critical area is going to drop a man in 99% of the time . A .22 is still a deadly weapon in the right hands . no argument there.
Last edited:
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Scout snipers don't use a .223. There are many BS articles like that one floating around. Similar BS ones about the 9mm as well.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Ill concede the point that shorter barrels and standard ball ammo weaken the 556 and maybe you can gain some improvements ,but overall I want to have the confidence in my rifle that it is going to kill or stop an enemy .
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
On what grounds are you calling it bullshit? vets and hunters will confirm it
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That's not how ballistics work. A .30-06 FMJ goes clean straight through. In fact, a round that fragments does more damage.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Again, a heavier round that doesn't fragment goes straight through soft tissue. It doesn't dump more energy. That's how hollow points work.
As far as the .40 vs .9mm goes, it's been proven that they do the same damage.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
It's BS. A Scout Sniper doesn't use a .223.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Thousands upon thousands of people have been killed upon the hands of a .223 in a FMJ configuration at that isn't as effective as a hollowpoint.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
He said he carried three weapons if you read it the article. pistol bolt gun and a modified AR . for close in protection . You cant call it bullshit based on that .
What is bullshit is that every time a man doesn't drop from one round of 556 he is said to be high on drugs. that is bullshit.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
thousands of people have been killed with a .22 too. and you don't know how many shots were needed to do the job either.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Then why switch?
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
no fragmentation