CA/NY New Option to AWB/Safe Act
- Thread starter Fedman
- Start date
spat
.700 Nitro Express
My main concern is that you can just hold down the release for normal operation.
I described a system like this a while ago, but it needs to be a mechanism that doesn't allow you to just hold the button continuously to be "covered"....
Just posted this in another thread
Even if you hold it down it's still not semiauto by definition. A semiauto extract and loads itself after the press of the trigger without the shooters involvement. A "Manual Loading" firearm by definition is when the shooter after firing a shot must do something or operate something on the firearm to load the next round into the chamber. In this case, the shooter is either pressing the bolt catch each and every time or holding it down. Either way the shooter is doing something to load the next round. The shooter is not just pressing the trigger as it is on a semiauto. If you fired a semiauto with one hand only, you can fire as many rounds as what is in the magazine just by pressing the trigger. You cannot do that with an AR that has a Modified Bolt Catch. You will only be able to fire one round if all you do is press the trigger.
Manual Loading Firearm Definition
Even if you hold it down it's still not semiauto by definition. A semiauto extract and loads itself after the press of the trigger without the shooters involvement. A "Manual Loading" firearm by definition is when the shooter after firing a shot must do something or operate something on the firearm to load the next round into the chamber. In this case, the shooter is either pressing the bolt catch each and every time or holding it down. Either way the shooter is doing something to load the next round. The shooter is not just pressing the trigger as it is on a semiauto. If you fired a semiauto with one hand only, you can fire as many rounds as what is in the magazine just by pressing the trigger. You cannot do that with an AR that has a Modified Bolt Catch. You will only be able to fire one round if all you do is press the trigger.
Manual Loading Firearm Definition
GUNSICK
6.5 Creedmoor
Looks like it would work well with a B.A.D. style lever.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
You could try that argument, I wouldn't want to have to pay a lawyer enough to try defending it though.
It's too close to saying a typical pistol isn't semi auto because if you aren't holding it it will short stroke.
It just needs an extra bit so that when you push the button, the catch drops and pops right back up whether you hold the button or not.
If you want it to be real easy to use, make a solenoid operated version you can release with a microswitch you can put on the forend, or even on the trigger (so that resetting the trigger releases the bolt).
Yea batteries suck for reliability, but if SHTF, this thing is coming off in seconds anyway.
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Kent Goldings
.357 mag
I'm not a lawyer. But, the defining feature of an auto loading firearm is a mechanism that removes the spend case and loads a new cartridge into the chamber without the shooter having to actuate the action.
The distinction being that the new cartridge is not loaded automatically. But, they must just consider it a convoluted 2 stage trigger.
Every semi-automatic firearm requires an action from the shooter to operate. It is usually just pulling the trigger.
The distinction being that the new cartridge is not loaded automatically. But, they must just consider it a convoluted 2 stage trigger.
Every semi-automatic firearm requires an action from the shooter to operate. It is usually just pulling the trigger.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
This doesn't require any action to load the next round. You if you hold the rifle correctly (they will argue) it will happen automatically, just like a pistol.
Just because you can hold it incorrectly to stop it doesn't make it not semi (just like limp writing a pistol) .
Kent Goldings
.357 mag
In the end, the people who enforce the law will say and a lawsuit will determine the right of it.
To me, gimping a rifle by fixing the mag or disabling auto-loading to make it complient is falling into the same mindset as the anti-gunners who wrote this bad law. A law that focuses on what a gun looks like is presposterous. It would have made mire sense to ban all auto loading centerfire rifles. But, that law never could have withstood a 2A challenge.
It is better to shoot good than to look good.
I looked into that and the amount of force exerted on the bolt catch is minimal because it is stopping the bolt carrier at the rearmost position when the bolt carrier is just starting its acceleration from the stop position. I'm not an engineer but the force is calculated based on its acceleration from the force exerted by the spring ft/lb energy after it has to begin moving the weight of the bolt carrier and the distance it travels before it hits the bolt catch which is less than a 1/2 inch. The force is more if the bolt carrier was being stopped at the most forward position (closest to the barrel) where the bolt carrier has picked up speed due to acceleration and longer distance traveled.
Uzi
.308 Win
I'd rather just shut off an adjustable gas block in comparison and run it like that for the time being. As already stated, I too would be concerned about the bolt catch wear over a relatively short period of time. There is very little advantage here, your hand still needs to be taken off the rail completely to drop the release and chamber a new round. If they extended it so the trigger finger could depress it, then it would be better, but that's not the case. Anytime I have to take a control hand away, I lose an adequate sight picture and control altogether. The the resulting ergonomics are brought down to neutered stock and prick grip levels of shooting control and comfort. The UK has a much better bolt or selector style release system in their center firing semi auto's. It's actually not half bad considering the close proximity and users control and comfort are all accessible within the range of the firing hand alone. It allows them to still essentially rapid fire within "reasonable time" and doesn't impede sight picture or secondary control.
fartgamer
.223 Rem
Easier to GTFOONY
Regardless of its legality it certainly defeats the whole purpose of having a semi auto.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
It's better than a fixed mag in my opinion although I'd never do it. Featureless is what I prefer due to function.
More rounds can be put downrange compared to a fixed magazine with this contraption that makes it not semi auto. You get the ability to reload without popping the upper from the lower.
ProgSpear
.338 Win Mag
I would consider this a bit safer than the "pop the upper" option also for clearing FTF's, jams, whatever.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Yep.
Blimey
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Not bad, but if you can indeed get around it by simply holding the bolt release, I don't envy you defending that in court; imo still a semi auto rifle.
This approach was better done in england where semi-auto rifles are illegal, and their way around it is to have an extra lever that has to be flicked after each shot with the shooting hand's thumb. This thing smokes it and is probably "more legal":
This approach was better done in england where semi-auto rifles are illegal, and their way around it is to have an extra lever that has to be flicked after each shot with the shooting hand's thumb. This thing smokes it and is probably "more legal":
Blimey
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Given the current laws I also think a featureless is an obvious no-brainer. SAFE removes the least meaningful parts of an AR anyway.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
If you hold the release it is an autoloader.
One can put a tooth-pic in the release and will not stop the carrier.
In this case it is not compliant with NY bs safe.
I don't think many deputies/LE care to be honest but also not sure who wants to be the guinea-pig for those in NYSP looking
for sacrificial lambs in order to justify the NYSAFE non-sense.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
That is the way to do it. In this case the gun ceases to be an autoloader because there is a sear release and proper build
stop so there is no way one can reengage the release w/o actually releasing the lever and engaging again.
One could not simply hold the lever with a tooth-pic and start firing and autoloading w/o stopping.
NYS does not define what selective fire and an autoloader are, the ATF does. NYS has no saying on this.
So these guns will be compliant because they are not autoloaders.
On the other hand the bolt catch above is not compliant. Plus it might ruin the receiver as it is not designed to take that amount of hits in that thin area. Also a gun slightly shortstroking might
not reach the catch yet will strip a new round and that will make the catch release a futile attempt.
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
FUAC!
Robin
Robin
I'll be goddamned if I'm jamming a toothpick in or holding down controls on a defensive gun. I'm with @Willjr75 I'd rather run a featureless. At the range I doesn't matter I guess but I think I'd get more enjoyment out of a bolt gun. On the range I'll take an Enfield or a K31 any day over this nonsense.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Frying pans, tooth pics, ... it is all connected you know?
What I need to know is who is bringing the rib-eye and the beer? lol
Saw a funny bill board today,
"In dog beers I've only had 1"
mchasal
22lr
NYS does define what "semi auto" means:
Article 26.00.21. "Semiautomatic" means any repeating rifle, shotgun or pistol, regardless of barrel or overall length, which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge or shell to extract the fired cartridge case or spent shell and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge or shell.
I believe that's the definition one would be arguing against if this ever came to a court case, despite what any "common sense" definition might say. In my non-lawyer opinion, none of these solutions get around the above definition. Even with a sear like the UK solution the gun still fits that definition.
There's a thread on the NY section of Arfcom where this goes back and forth, I think it just comes down to what interpretation one feels comfortable with. So to each their own decision.
NY thinks they can define whatever they want to, thatsbthe problem, but I didn't see a dang ol' thing.
Uzi
.308 Win
What? More rounds downrange?
There are side stripper clips that eliminate the need to open the upper from the lower already out.
A lot less time to convert a fixed mag then having to press out roll pins, swap the bolt release, and or change stocks and grips in SHTF too. Only thing you'd have to change is the end of the button on the release.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Side stripper clips.What? More rounds downrange?
There are side stripper clips that eliminate the need to open the upper from the lower already out.
A lot less time to convert a fixed mag then having to press out roll pins, swap the bolt release, and or change stocks and grips in SHTF too. Only thing you'd have to change is the end of the button on the release.
Seriously! Hold on a second. Let me load the loader and then load the magazine. Oh crap! A jam! Hold on a second. Let me try to remove the base plate and hope the jam isn't on top of the feed lips. Does anyone have a screw driver handy?With featureless, I lose no function to begin with. If the SHTF and I decide to care about looks, one screw gets a pistol grip back on along with a collapsible stock. That's the only functional way to go.
If I were to sacrifice function for looks, I'd much prefer to lose a small amount of time between shots where I can actually remove the magazine (the most important part of the system) then to fire a ten round magazine quickly and hope they're isn't a malfunction and the need to reload quickly.
If the SHTF and you are depending on a fixed mag to convert, you have the wrong rifle.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
IMO, their definition does not contradict the ATFs definition of an autoloading firearm. If it did then they will have a problem no agreeing with federal law because that definition is what determines if a firearm can be sold to the general public or it needs a special license like the one for selective fire.
If that definition didn't agree it would be invalid or they will have to stop the selling of firearms already approved by the ATF and possibly recall everything sold since the provision went into effect. A clear case why this type of provision has no actual effect. Any articles can compound with federal or viceversa but they cannot contradict fundamental definitions like the ATF definition for a type of firearm or trigger function.
Regarding the OP bolt catch "solution" if I put a simple toothpick on the bolt catch release lever this will turn the firearm into autoloading. This doesn't need interpretation. One could argue if a tooth-pic is a modification "that one could readily revert", whatever that means.
There are a lot of arbitrary provisions in the SAFE ACT but the most arbitrary are the ones one needs to watch out for unless one wants to be the test case for this absurd law.
If you call the NYSP hotline you might get a different answer depending on who you talk to and whatever the weather patterns.
This has been the case with many other issues discussed here or in any other forums since the act went into effect.