Dude open carrying. nobody freaked out!

[Marine Cpl]

Do you see the contradiction in that statement? Unless something is explicitly forbidden by the law, it is legal. The law tells you what you can't do; anything not mentioned there is, by default, legal.




Excepting the obvious (certain variants of semi-auto's, short-barreled shotguns and rifles, and machineguns), firearms are most definitely legal in NY. There are no "exemptions." People have to pass a background check to buy them, but I wouldn't consider than an "exemption."



The laws you refer to give you the legal authority to carry concealed. They do not forbid the open carry of pistols. If that were the case, would people be allowed to open carry on private land, at gun ranges or while hunting? Plenty of people do this all the time, sometimes in full view of the public and/or LEO's....I've never heard of a license-holder getting arrested for open carrying a pistol (at least in areas where firearms are allowed).

Sorry. No disrespect but you need to read Penal law 265 and Penal law 400. Penal law 265 makes firearms illegal. The definition of firearm as defined by NYS is different than what you may believe it to be. Penal law 400 gives the exemptions.

And again, because you see what you see, it doesn't make it legal even though it doesn't make sense . Law makers make laws that don't make sense all the time.

 

[Edwardteach72]

 

[Upstate43]

Sorry. No disrespect but you need to read Penal law 265 and Penal law 400. Penal law 265 makes firearms illegal. The definition of firearm as defined by NYS is different than what you may believe it to be. Penal law 400 gives the exemptions.

I saw your references to those laws earlier in this thread. And to be fair, I have read through them. Have you?

If so, please show me the language that specifically forbids the open carry of pistols. Laws dictate what isn't allowed. If something isn't explicitly stated in the law, then it is allowed.

And how many handgun hunters and trackers should be arrested annually if open carry truly was illegal? People use handguns all the time on state, and private, land for hunting, tracking and target shooting. Do you honestly think they're expected to keep those firearms concealed until they are ready to shoot?

 

[Edwardteach72]

officer discretion

 

[Marine Cpl]

I saw your references to those laws earlier in this thread. And to be fair, I have read through them. Have you?

If so, please show me the language that specifically forbids the open carry of pistols. Laws dictate what isn't allowed. If something isn't explicitly stated in the law, than it is allowed.

And how many handgun hunters and trackers should be arrested annually if open carry truly was illegal? People use handguns all the time on state, and private, land for hunting, tracking and target shooting. Do you honestly think they're expected to keep those firearms concealed until they are ready to shoot?

Im at work so I have no time. It's a simple logic to follow. Penal law 265 says pistols are illegal unless you are exempted under penal law 400. Penal law 400 says how you are exempted. You need to follow certain protocols for that exemption. That's how it works. It even says in penal law 400 that failure to follow the conditions is a misdemeanor.

 

[Upstate43]

Officers have very little discretion when it comes to enforcing the law. Either someone broke the law or no crime was committed. That's why there are cases where peoples' arrests and charges are overturned for inappropriate or illegal justifications on the LEO's part.

Some people here act like this is all of a sudden a big deal....it's not. People have been open-carrying sidearms on state land for quite some time now. It's a non-issue so long as you have a permit.

 

[Edwardteach72]

looks like someone hasnt read the penal law, or just read the law but how they wanted to.....

trust me i used to be naive like you as well, but after actually reading the law, OC is not legal

 

[Upstate43]

Im at work so I have no time. It's a simple logic to follow. Penal law 265 says pistols are illegal unless you are exempted under penal law 400. Penal law 400 says how you are exempted. You need to follow certain protocols for that exemption. That's how it works. It even says in penal law 400 that failure to follow the conditions is a misdemeanor.

What protocols? Law 400.00 states that there are specific license types:

Types of licenses.  A license for gunsmith or dealer in firearms shall be issued to engage in such business.  A license for a pistol or revolver, other than an assault weapon or a disguised gun, shall be issued to (a) have and possess in his dwelling by a householder;  (b) have and possess in his place of business by a merchant or storekeeper;  (c) have and carry concealed while so employed by a messenger employed by a banking institution or express company;  (d) have and carry concealed by a justice of the supreme court in the first or second judicial departments, or by a judge of the New York city civil court or the New York city criminal court;  (e) have and carry concealed while so employed by a regular employee of an institution of the state, or of any county, city, town or village, under control of a commissioner of correction of the city or any warden, superintendent or head keeper of any state prison, penitentiary, workhouse, county jail or other institution for the detention of persons convicted or accused of crime or held as witnesses in criminal cases, provided that application is made therefor by such commissioner, warden, superintendent or head keeper;  (f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof;  and (g) have, possess, collect and carry antique pistols which are defined as follows:  (i) any single shot, muzzle loading pistol with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system manufactured in or before l898, which is not designed for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition;  and (ii) any replica of any pistol described in clause (i) hereof if such replica--

Within a certain license type (like unrestricted), the law does not dictate how the pistol shall be carried. It gives you the right to conceal carry, because otherwise owning and concealing a handgun is illegal. At no point does that law state that open-carry is illegal.

Unless the law specifically forbids open carry, there is no way in hell a court can convict you of a crime.

When you get home, show me the language that proves otherwise. You're on a fool's mission with this argument.

 

[Upstate43]

trust me i used to be naive like you as well, but after actually reading the law, OC is not legal

Show me the legal language that states as much....All I'm seeing so far are vague claims and references to laws, which no one seems inclined to read and quote in order to make a logical legal argument.

 

[Upstate43]

And I'm still wondering why I haven't seen hundreds, if not thousands, of handgun hunters and trackers be arrested for "illegally" open-carrying during hunting season.

Are there a whole bunch of cops who just don't care about enforcing the law?

 

[ArmedCorgi]

(f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof;

 

[ArmedCorgi]

And I'm still wondering why I haven't seen hundreds, if not thousands, of handgun hunters and trackers be arrested for "illegally" open-carrying during hunting season.

Are there a whole bunch of cops who just don't care about enforcing the law?

On private land or out in the woods hunting might be one thing. What are the odds of running into LEO's out there anyway? I think I've only seen one DEC officer out in the woods and he didn't approach me. However, out in a public and populated area, I think would be another thing. Even if you weren't arrested I would imagine it could bring a lot of unwanted attention.

 

[Upstate43]

(f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof;

That clause gives you the right carry concealed....it does not forbid open carry.

In order to be considered illegal, an act needs to be explicitly forbidden in the law's language. Simply arguing that conceal carry is permitted by 400.00 because it is explicitly mentioned, and that open carry is not allowed by implication of being left out is not a valid legal argument.

I think some people here need to retake Civics 101 so that they can understand how laws work.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

The permit is to carry concealed, not open.

 

[Upstate43]

On private land or out in the woods hunting might be one thing. What are the odds of running into LEO's out there anyway? I think I've only seen one DEC officer out in the woods and he didn't approach me.

That's now how law 400.00 works. It does not make exemptions based on the type of land you are on. Open carry of a handgun is permitted, so long as you are in an area where firearms are allowed.

However, out in a public and populated area, I think would be another thing.
Even if you weren't arrested I would imagine it could bring a lot of unwanted attention.

I've already agreed with that mentality in a previous post. I'm not advocating that people open-carry in crowded public areas, even if it is legal. However, there are scenarios where open carry is logical...hunting or hiking in the woods would be one example.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It's illegal to carry a pistol unless you have a license. That license is for what Ed?

 

[Marine Cpl]

It's illegal to carry a pistol unless you have a license. That license is for what Ed?

When I get home, I'll break it down for you.

 

[Upstate43]

The permit is to carry concealed, not open.

The permit gives you permission to carry concealed. That's a very nuanced, but important, distinction.

There is no law, at least none that people have referred to so far, that forbids open carry.

 

[Edwardteach72]

The permit gives you permission to carry concealed. That's a very nuanced, but important, distinction.

There is no law, at least none that people have referred to so far, that forbids open carry.

i see you are from the Roc. maybe take a trip over to the firing pin llc they offer some concealed carry legaleese classes from time to time, and or rochester personal defense

 

[Marine Cpl]

Your exemption is to carry concealed. Without that exemption you can't carry. No one can carry unless licensed. That license is for one method of carry only. Under your logic, a person without a concealed carry license can open carry.

 

[Upstate43]

i see you are from the Roc. maybe take a trip over to the firing pin llc they offer some concealed carry legaleese classes from time to time, and or rochester personal defense

If they're anything like the personalities on this forum, I'll pass on that.

Your exemption is to carry concealed. Without that exemption you can't carry.

I know what part of law 265.00 you're referring to. The exemptions to own a "firearm" in 265 are for firearms within very specific categories:

“Firearm” means (a) any pistol or revolver;  or (b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length;  or (c) a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length;  or (d) any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches;  or (e) an assault weapon.  For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked;  the overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.  Firearm does not include an antique firearm.

To address what you claimed earlier, there are no "exemptions" to own a regular (non-short barrel) rifle or shotgun, obviously within the confines of the SAFE Act. If you pass a background check, you can own one.

Pistols, which fall under the "firearm" category for law 265 are illegal, unless a person has a license to own and carry (law 400.00).

No one can carry [a pistol] unless licensed.

I amended your post above. If that's what you're saying, no one is arguing otherwise.

That license is for one method of carry only.

No. You're interpreting the law to mean that, likely because you have a biased and emotional investment in this argument. Law 400.00 does not specifically forbid open carry of handguns. Neither does law 265.00 for that matter. If an activity is not specifically forbidden, then it is impossible for you to be charged and convicted for partaking in it.

Under your logic, a person without a concealed carry license can open carry.

That's a weak strawman argument. I do acknowledge that you need a license to carry a pistol period. What I'm saying is that once you have said license, you are in fact allowed to open carry because the relevant laws do not specifically forbid it.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

Well, perhaps that is in fact the reason why people aren't being arrested for open carrying on private or state lands, especially while hunting/trapping.

The fear and confusion that the myriad of gun laws in this state produces, plus a heavy liberal presence keeps a lot of people from doing things like open carrying or other things not specifically mentioned in the law as illegal but have the potential to create a legal mess for oneself in proving legality.

 

[Upstate43]

Well, perhaps that is in fact the reason why people aren't being arrested for open carrying on private or state lands, especially while hunting/trapping.

There is no legal provision which allows for the open carry of pistols specifically for hunting or trapping.

People do so because it is legal in general and it, is in fact, accepted as common practice in many areas.

Like I said earlier, I'm not advocating that people open carry in crowded public areas just because they're allowed to, though in some areas of NY that does happen without much fuss. Permit holders need to demonstrate common sense....that should almost go without saying. But I am pointing out that NY's gun laws aren't as strict as some people make them out to be when it comes to certain issues.

You can open carry a pistol in NY. People do so all the time for certain activities (hunting, camping), and I'm sure most of them use discretion when it comes to other activities (walking downtown). If open carry was illegal, it would be specifically forbidden in law....which it isn't.

 

[SomeSoldier]

Keep it up. You will be reported, you will be arrested for "menacing", your permit will be revoked, your guns will be confiscated.

Your permit is for "concealed carry", open carry is not mentioned anywhere.

All it will take is one Sara Brady flunkie to throw a fit, call the cops and say you were menacing them.

When you live in a super blue state, it is prudent to always assume the worst and follow the EXACT letter of the law.

Dude is a cop, no one is going to arrest him.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Ed. Does Penal law 400 give a premise permit holder the exemption to open carry?

 

[spat]

Im at work so I have no time. It's a simple logic to follow. Penal law 265 says pistols are illegal unless you are exempted under penal law 400. Penal law 400 says how you are exempted. You need to follow certain protocols for that exemption. That's how it works. It even says in penal law 400 that failure to follow the conditions is a misdemeanor.

What would your hypothetical open carrier be charged with ?

Certainly in the 100 or so years we have had this law there would be an example you could provide ?

 

[spat]

Your exemption is to carry concealed. Without that exemption you can't carry. No one can carry unless licensed. That license is for one method of carry only. Under your logic, a person without a concealed carry license can open carry.

Under your logic it is illegal to possess a handgun in NY unless you are concealing it on your person.

Are all the guns in my safe illegal then because they aren't concealed on my person ?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Under your logic it is illegal to possess a handgun in NY unless you are concealing it on your person.

Are all the guns in my safe illegal then because they aren't concealed on my person ?

Stupidly written laws are stupid laws. You know that.

Can a premise permit holder open carry anywhere he wants in New York state? Yes or no?

And to answer your question he'll be charged with a misdemeanor under penal law 400.

 

[Upstate43]

Ed. Does Penal law 400 give a premise permit holder the exemption to open carry?

Within their home, it certainly allows them to open carry. I'd like to see the NY court case which establishes the legal precedent that forbids someone from open carrying on their own property.

That aside, I'm not sure what your intent is with that question. Law 400.00 provides license types which specify where and why someone may carry:

A license for a pistol or revolver, other than an assault weapon or a disguised gun, shall be issued to:

• (a) have and possess in his dwelling by a householder;  
• (b) have and possess in his place of business by a merchant or storekeeper;  
• (c) have and carry concealed while so employed by a messenger employed by a banking institution or express company;  
• (d) have and carry concealed by a justice of the supreme court in the first or second judicial departments, or by a judge of the New York city civil court or the New York city criminal court;  
• (e) have and carry concealed while so employed by a regular employee of an institution of the state, or of any county, city, town or village, under control of a commissioner of correction of the city or any warden, superintendent or head keeper of any state prison, penitentiary, workhouse, county jail or other institution for the detention of persons convicted or accused of crime or held as witnesses in criminal cases, provided that application is made therefor by such commissioner, warden, superintendent or head keeper;  
• (f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof;  and
• (g) have, possess, collect and carry antique pistols which are defined as follows:

Part (f) is the basis for the permit type we all informally refer to as "unrestricted." The language states "carry concealed." That part of Law 400.00 specifically permits conceal carry; it does not specifically regulate how the pistol shall be carried by forbidding other carry types. Neither does Law 265.00.

In order for open carry to be considered illegal, there has to be law which is violated by that act.

Show me the legal language that specifically forbids open carry.

 

[spat]

Stupidly written laws are stupid laws. You know that.

Can a premise permit holder open carry anywhere he wants in New York state? Yes or no?

And to answer your question he'll be charged with a misdemeanor under penal law 400.

No, there are all sorts of places a premise permit holder can't carry in NY.

Can a premise permit holder bring a gun to the range ? How does he do that without violating PL 400 in your world ?

What section of PL 400 says open carry is illegal ? PL 400 is just an exception to PL265, he would have to be charged under PL 265.