Dude open carrying. nobody freaked out!

[Upstate43]

@UpStateEd do we need a pistol license to own a hand gun in NYS?

Yes we do. And no one is arguing otherwise.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I've been saying that from the get-go. Why has it taken you this long to agree with me?

What you keep forgetting is that is true until they make something illegal across the board. Once they do that, then you need exemptions for everything related to it.

 

[nortatoga]

Yes we do. And no one is arguing otherwise.

And what kind of license is issued?

My County which I am a pistol safety class instructor only issues concealed carry with hunting and target restrictions, which after a year you can take the advanced CCW class to have restricts removed.

Does your County issue a open carry license?

And believe me I do believe open carry is what is protected by the 2A not CCW. Check my signature!

Just here the State of NY does not allow open carry of hand guns as the law is written.

 

[Upstate43]

What you keep forgetting is that is true until they make something illegal across the board. Once they do that, then you need exemptions for everything related to it.

I'm not advocating that people go on open-carry protest marches in downtown. But I will staunchly defend the legality of carrying and using your sidearm in a responsible and logical manner.

Handgun hunters, trackers, trappers, or people who just want to carry while camping on state land (where legal) should have nothing to fear when it comes to open carrying. There is no law which forbids such actions.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I'm not advocating that people go on open-carry protest marches in downtown. But I will staunchly defend the legality of carrying and using your sidearm in a responsible and logical manner.

Handgun hunters, trackers, trappers, or people who just want to carry while camping on state land (where legal) should have nothing to fear when it comes to open carrying. There is no law which forbids such actions.

They shouldn't have to. You are correct but that's not the law.

 

[Upstate43]

And what kind of license is issued?

The license types are listed out in detail in law 400.00 (listed below).

My County which I am a pistol safety class instructor only issues concealed carry with hunting and target restrictions, which after a year you can take the advanced CCW class to have restricts removed.

Does your County issue a open carry license?

Where are those restrictions listed? On the pistol permit card itself?

There are no target or hunting 'restrictions' listed in law 400.00 for any of the permit types. Go read the text if you don't believe me:

A license for a pistol or revolver, other than an assault weapon or a disguised gun, shall be issued to:

• (a) have and possess in his dwelling by a householder;  
• (b) have and possess in his place of business by a merchant or storekeeper;  
• (c) have and carry concealed while so employed by a messenger employed by a banking institution or express company;  
• (d) have and carry concealed by a justice of the supreme court in the first or second judicial departments, or by a judge of the New York city civil court or the New York city criminal court;  
• (e) have and carry concealed while so employed by a regular employee of an institution of the state, or of any county, city, town or village, under control of a commissioner of correction of the city or any warden, superintendent or head keeper of any state prison, penitentiary, workhouse, county jail or other institution for the detention of persons convicted or accused of crime or held as witnesses in criminal cases, provided that application is made therefor by such commissioner, warden, superintendent or head keeper;  
• (f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof;  and
• (g) have, possess, collect and carry antique pistols which are defined as follows:

 

[Marine Cpl]

The license types are listed out in detail in law 400.00 (listed below).



Where are those restrictions listed? On the pistol permit card itself?

There are no target or hunting 'restrictions' listed in law 400.00 for any of the permit types. Go read the text if you don't believe me:

Now I agree with you. There are no restrictions in the penal law.

 

[nortatoga]

A Judge can restrict a license at any time for any reason: the licensing officer is statutorily invested with the power to sua sponte revoke or cancel a license (see, Penal Law § 400.00[11][other than in New York City and Nassau and Suffolk Counties, a judge or justice of a court of record acts as the licensing officer]). This extraordinary power reposed in a licensing officer in and of itself supports respondent s determination to restrict the scope of petitioner s license.
(Sua Sponte: Lat. Of his or its own will or motion; voluntarily; without prompting or suggestion. Black's Law Dictionary, 4th edition.)

 

[Upstate43]

Now I agree with you. There are no restrictions in the penal law.

So you agree that open carry is legal?

Or you agree that hunting and target shooting are allowed?

IMHO, those two categories are one-in-the-same....you can't feasibly handgun hunt or target shoot without demonstrating some amount of open carry.

 

[Upstate43]

A Judge can restrict a license at any time for any reason: the licensing officer is statutorily invested with the power to sua sponte revoke or cancel a license (see, Penal Law § 400.00[11][other than in New York City and Nassau and Suffolk Counties, a judge or justice of a court of record acts as the licensing officer]). This extraordinary power reposed in a licensing officer in and of itself supports respondent s determination to restrict the scope of petitioner s license.
(Sua Sponte: Lat. Of his or its own will or motion; voluntarily; without prompting or suggestion. Black's Law Dictionary, 4th edition.)

I understand the arbitrary manner in which a permit can be revoked.

But you're side-stepping the issue which our originally brought up. Where are the specific hunting and target restrictions listed, either in law 400.00 or on the pistol permit itself? And what is the legal text which explains how those restrictions can be lifted?

 

[nortatoga]

Good you listed the type's of license! Where is the one for open carry?

 

[Marine Cpl]

So you agree that open carry is legal?

Or you agree that hunting and target shooting are allowed?

IMHO, those two categories are one-in-the-same....you can't feasibly handgun hunt or target shoot without demonstrating some amount of open carry.

I'm agreeing that the penal law makes no mention of restrictions placed on concealed carry licenses. That's it.

Open carry is illegal and I've explained why a million times already and also explained why they (the police) allow it because how the hell else are you going to do it?

 

[nortatoga]

I understand the arbitrary manner in which a permit can be revoked.

But you're side-stepping the issue which our originally brought up. Where are the specific hunting and target restrictions listed, either in law 400.00 or on the pistol permit itself? And what is the legal text which explains how those restrictions can be lifted?

My post said nothing about revoking did it?

 

[Upstate43]

Good you listed the type's of license! Where is the one for open carry?

Refer to this earlier post:

. Things are legal unless the law says otherwise.

The law doesn't forbid handgun hunting or target shooting. Nor does it forbid open carry.

Again, I ask: where are these hunting and target restrictions mentioned in the law?

 

[Upstate43]

My post said nothing about revoking did it?

The quote you referenced did. Are you even reading what you post?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Refer to this earlier post:



The law doesn't forbid handgun hunting or target shooting. Nor does it forbid open carry.

Again, I ask: where are these hunting and target restrictions mentioned in the law?

When did I say that it forbids handgun hunting?

 

[Upstate43]

When did I say that it forbids handgun hunting?

That question wasn't directed specifically at you. But it is relevant to your argument. And I have in fact asked you to answer that question earlier in the conversation. You have yet to provide an answer.

How can handgun hunting be considered legal if it is not specifically listed as an exemption in law 400.00?

 

[Marine Cpl]

That question wasn't directed specifically at you. But it is relevant to your argument. And I have in fact asked you to answer that question earlier in the conversation. You have yet to provide an answer.

How can handgun hunting be considered legal if it is not specifically listed as an exemption in law 400.00?

Because hunting isn't illegal if you have a hunting license. I wasn't sidestepping your question. Hunting isn't illegal. Why would it be illegal with a concealed handgun not that it's smart to do it that way?

I've already explained why they allow you to open carry it.

 

[Upstate43]

Because hunting isn't illegal if you have a hunting license. I wasn't sidestepping your question. Hunting isn't illegal. Why would it be illegal with a concealed handgun?

Hunting isn't illegal. But according to your line of logic, any amount of open carry with a pistol is illegal. Simply by nature of hunting, your pistol will be out and carried openly....that's normally how hunting works. There is no hunting exemption listed in law 400.00.

Have you heard of even one handgun hunter being arrested for open-carrying his/her pistol in the woods? Do you see the inherent flaw with your argument?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Hunting isn't illegal. But according to your line of logic, any amount of open carry with a pistol is illegal. Simply by nature of hunting, your pistol will be out and carried openly....that's normally how hunting works. There is no hunting exemption listed in law 400.00.

Have you heard of even one handgun hunter being arrested for open-carrying his/her pistol in the woods? Do you see the inherent flaw with your argument?

It's not according to my logic. It's what is written. I've already explained why they look the other way. I've already explained that law makers who know nothing about anything are the ones that write the laws. You are the one ignoring that and trying to place sound logic on a poorly written law.

 

[Upstate43]

It's not according to my logic. It's what is written. I've already explained why they look the other way. I've already explained that law makers who know nothing about anything are the ones that write the laws. You are the one ignoring that and trying to place sound logic on a poorly written law.

I'm not trying validate or reinforce what i agree to be poorly written laws. I'm saying that if anyone was actually taken to court for open carrying a pistol, the prosecution would have a tough time establishing the legal basis for that supposed crime.

And so you think the reason handgun hunters and target shooter who openly display and carry their firearms avoid jail time is simply because the cops look the other way? I disagree, but thank you for at least acknowledging that handgun hunting and target shooting require some amount of open carry.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I'm not trying validate or reinforce what i agree to be poorly written laws. I'm saying that if anyone was actually taken to court for open carrying a pistol, the prosecution would have a tough time establishing the legal basis for that supposed crime.

And so you think the reason handgun hunters and target shooter who openly display and carry their firearms avoid jail time is simply because the cops look the other way? I disagree, but thank you for at least acknowledging that handgun hunting and target shooting require some amount of open carry.

Yes. The cops look the other way because it would be stupid of them not to. It also depends on the place that you are in.

If they wanted to however, it would be a misdemeanor as I've pointed out before. It's written plain as day in penal law 400.

 

[Marine Cpl]

15. Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a
class A misdemeanor.

17. Applicability of section. The provisions of article two hundred
sixty-five of this chapter relating to illegal possession of a firearm,
shall not apply to an offense which also constitutes a violation of this
section by a person holding an otherwise valid license under the
provisions of this section and such offense shall only be punishable as
a class A misdemeanor pursuant to this section. In addition, the
provisions of such article two hundred sixty-five of this chapter shall
not apply to the possession of a firearm in a place not authorized by
law, by a person who holds an otherwise valid license or possession of a
firearm by a person within a one year period after the stated expiration
date of an otherwise valid license which has not been previously
cancelled or revoked shall only be punishable as a class A misdemeanor
pursuant to this section.

 

[Upstate43]

Yes. The cops look the other way because it would be stupid of them not to. It also depends on the place that you are in.

That's not a legal argument.

If they wanted to however, it would be a misdemeanor as I've pointed out before. It's written plain as day in penal law 400.

The misdemeanor section is written plain as day. The illegality of open carry is not.

Where does it state that open carrying (to include while hunting or target shooting) is one of those "offenses" that can be treated as a misdemeanor?

 

[SomeSoldier]

Good you listed the type's of license! Where is the one for open carry?

Mine doesnt state either just says "License To Carry A Pistol Is Hereby Granted" below that it says "Unrestricted".

 

[Upstate43]

A Judge can restrict a license at any time for any reason: the licensing officer is statutorily invested with the power to sua sponte revoke or cancel a license (see, Penal Law § 400.00[11][other than in New York City and Nassau and Suffolk Counties, a judge or justice of a court of record acts as the licensing officer]). This extraordinary power reposed in a licensing officer in and of itself supports respondent s determination to restrict the scope of petitioner s license.
(Sua Sponte: Lat. Of his or its own will or motion; voluntarily; without prompting or suggestion. Black's Law Dictionary, 4th edition.)

By the way, that clause you've kept repeating only applies to certain license holders in NY City and Nassau and Suffolk Counties. In the rest of NY, thankfully, a court most prove there is a valid reason to take away someone's permit, and the permit holder has legal recourse. The full and updated text is this:

License:  revocation and suspension.  (a) The conviction of a licensee anywhere of a felony or serious offense or a licensee at any time becoming ineligible to obtain a license under this section shall operate as a revocation of the license.  A license may be revoked or suspended as provided for in section 530.14 of the criminal procedure law or section eight hundred forty-two-a of the family court act .  Except for a license issued pursuant to section 400.01 of this article, a license may be revoked and cancelled at any time in the city of New York, and in the counties of Nassau and Suffolk, by the licensing officer, and elsewhere than in the city of New York by any judge or justice of a court of record;  a license issued pursuant to section 400.01 of this article may be revoked and cancelled at any time by the licensing officer or any judge or justice of a court of record.  The official revoking a license shall give written notice thereof without unnecessary delay to the executive department, division of state police, Albany, and shall also notify immediately the duly constituted police authorities of the locality.

 

[Marine Cpl]

That's not a legal argument.




The misdemeanor section is written plain as day. The illegality of open carry is not.

Where does it state that open carrying (to include while hunting or target shooting) is one of those "offenses" that can be treated as a misdemeanor?

I already told you that possession and carry is illegal unless exempted. Forget it. This is tiring already. Think what you wish. No worries.

 

[Upstate43]

I already told you that possession and carry is illegal unless exempted.

Right, but you've acknowledged that hunting and target shooting with a pistol are not specifically "exempted" but yet are somehow considered legal. And yet both activities require open carry, which you also seem to implicitly acknowledge.

So how is it that openly carrying a pistol to hunt a big game animal is legal, but open carrying on a pistol on a hiking trail or in your backyard is illegal? There is an inherent contradiction in your logic which you either fail to grasp or refuse to acknowledge.

Either open carry is legal in all circumstances (even if its not wise), or its not legal for any reason whatsoever (to include hunting and target shooting). There is no statutory clause which draws a distinction on when open carry is and isn't legal. There isn't even a clause which states that open carry is illegal to begin with.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Right, but you've acknowledged that hunting and target shooting with a pistol are not specifically "exempted" but yet are somehow considered legal. And yet both activities require open carry, which you also seem to implicitly acknowledge.

So how is it that openly carrying a pistol to hunt a big game animal is legal, but open carrying on a pistol on a hiking trail or in your backyard is illegal? There is an inherent contradiction in your logic which you either fail to grasp or refuse to acknowledge.

Either open carry is legal in all circumstances (even if its not wise), or its not legal for any reason whatsoever (to include hunting and target shooting). There is no legal clause which draws a distinction on when open carry is and isn't legal. There isn't even a clause which states that open carry is illegal to begin with.

Boy. I've said numerous times already that as the law is written, open carry is illegal in all circumstances. I've said this numerous times and also said that it isn't enforced in many situations for obvious reasons and it depends on where you are it if an officer is going to approach you.

 

[Upstate43]

Boy. I've said numerous times already that as the law is written, open carry is illegal in all circumstances.

Okay, then by that interpretation any open display of your handgun to hunt or target shoot is also illegal. It is impossible to do either of those activities without openly displaying and carrying your handgun, even if only for a brief moment.

So let's make sure we get the word out to all the handgun hunters and target shooters to make sure they don't arrested by an over-eager police officer....