Dude open carrying. nobody freaked out!

[Marine Cpl]

You guys are trying to make sense of a nonsensical law by saying well how else can you carry it at a range. Is a rifle not a firearm? Doesn't make sense does it? So if I have a rifle and cut the barrel to 15in now magically it becomes a firearm where previously it wasn't?

You see what I'm getting at? The same can be said about carry. It doesn't make sense but people who wrote the laws wrote it that way. They took no consideration into how to carry it at the range or while hunting just like they took no consideration into exempting law enforcement when the unsafe act was written.

@Upstate43 , my point about the premise permit is that because you can own the firearm associated with it, it doesn't mean you can open carry it throughout the state. That's illegal since you don't have a license to carry it. It's punishable by a misdemeanor according to penal law 400. Why is it punishable by a misdemeanor according to penal law 400? Because you violated the conditions of penal law 400. The same goes for someone with a carry permit. It's only exemption is to carry it concealed. This isn't like Pennsylvania where mere possession is legal and you can carry it openly without a license.. You need a license to conceal carry it there. Here mere possession is illegal unless exempted. And that exemption is in penal law 400 to have it and carry it concealed.

Every lawyer that talks about the issue says that open carry is illegal. NRA lawyers say that it's illegal. But yet you two think it's not illegal. You two are seeing something that no one else does.

Penal law 400 gives you the exemption to have it and carry it concealed. It doesn't give you the exemption to have it and carry it concealed or open. Because if carrying it concealed was the only exemption to penal law 265, then a premise permit holder can open carry it anywhere. It's giving you permission to have it and if you are going to carry it, it needs to be concealed. Just the mere fact that it says, "to have it." means that you aren't exempted from having it unless you have a certain license. And guess what that license says in the penal law in regards to carry in it for an exemption?

 

[Marine Cpl]

I suggest you guys read penal law 400 and look for the parts regarding misdemeanors.

15. Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a class A misdemeanor.

 

[spat]

I suggest you guys read penal law 400 and look for the parts regarding misdemeanors.

15. Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a class A misdemeanor.

Find us one example of an open carrier with a permit who has been convicted of violating PL400 *just* by open carrying and you can shut us all up.


Surely in the last 100 years *someone* has been convicted of it, if it's really illegal.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Find us one example of an open carrier with a permit who has been convicted of violating PL400 *just* by open carrying and you can shut us all up.


Surely in the last 100 years *someone* has been convicted of it, if it's really illegal.

Find me one example of a person arrested for not having a 922r compliant firearm. Some things are just ignored. That isn't a basis for legality according to the actual law.

 

[Dinkus the Stinkus]

What about long guns? Open carry or nah?

Just saw this and read through it and saw all the discussion regarding handguns which is well documented and despite a lack of it being expressly forbidden it is seen as illegal, why else can you be in trouble for printing or if someone sees a supposed to be concealed pistol?

The part I'm interested in though is the open carry of long guns in nys. Obviously people do while hunting and while on their property but is that the only time you can?

 

[spat]

I suggest you guys read penal law 400 and look for the parts regarding misdemeanors.

15. Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a class A misdemeanor.

Show me where in PL400 it says I can keep my handguns in a safe in my bedroom ?

Is that illegal too ? It's not "carrying concealed".

Either *everything* but concealed on your person is illegal, or open carry isn't if you want to be consistent.

 

[Acer-m14]

how do i transport my BP pistol to my friend who has a PP and can shoot it .. i don't have the stuff to load it .. i'm legal .. .. do i carry it open or wrapped in a blanket .. this has never been answered ..

What about long guns? Open carry or nah?

Just saw this and read through it and saw all the discussion regarding handguns which is well documented and despite a lack of it being expressly forbidden it is seen as illegal, why else can you be in trouble for printing or if someone sees a supposed to be concealed pistol?

The part I'm interested in though is the open carry of long guns in nys. Obviously people do while hunting and while on their property but is that the only time you can?

where i'm at .. i could carry my rifle anywhere ... if you have a hunting tag .. woodchuck and few others game is open too all year ..
no problem .. just be respectful to LEO if they show up ..

you can carry your rifle on any open public land ..

back in the days .. oh what was it .. 1982 or so ...
me and cuz and friends wanted to go to the hunting camp .. 8 mile from town .
for a weekend camp out and shooting .. targets or open game ..
so we all packed up and started walking up on the side of the road .. back packs on and guns open to see ..
thumbs out for a ride .. no issue back then .. got a ride and had a good time ..


the right to bare arms.. shall not be infringed ..

 

[Marine Cpl]

Show me where in PL400 it says I can keep my handguns in a safe in my bedroom ?

Is that illegal too ? It's not "carrying concealed".

Either *everything* but concealed on your person is illegal, or open carry isn't if you want to be consistent.

Again. The law written is a poorly written law. I've already explained that yet you still want to try to make sense of it despite that. I know you know what I'll saying.

 

[nortatoga]

(f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof;

Fixed it for you! The word HAVE is the first important word in this (f) exception follow by carry concealed.

 

[Upstate43]

Every lawyer that talks about the issue says that open carry is illegal. NRA lawyers say that it's illegal. But yet you two think it's not illegal. You two are seeing something that no one else does.

Show me the legal analysis which states that open carry is illegal in NY. I've seen internet bloggers claim as much. I've yet to see any lawyer write a position paper on that issue.

Moreover, I'm still wondering: how is someone supposed to handgun hunt in NY (which is allowed according to the DEC regs) without breaking this implied law?

Penal law 400 gives you the exemption to have it and carry it concealed. It doesn't give you the exemption to have it and carry it concealed or open. Because if carrying it concealed was the only exemption to penal law 265, then a premise permit holder can open carry it anywhere. It's giving you permission to have it and if you are going to carry it, it needs to be concealed. Just the mere fact that it says, "to have it." means that you aren't exempted from having it unless you have a certain license. And guess what that license says in the penal law in regards to carry in it for an exemption?

The problem is that you keep referring to to Laws 400.00 and 265.00, but you're not quoting or referring to any of the specific text to prove your point. Where, in either of those laws, does it explicitly state that open carry is illegal?

A premise holder can only carry on his/her premise, as per what the license clause states.
An 'unrestricted' permit holder can carry regardless of place of possession or employment. The license clause specifically states "have and carry concealed" but it does not specifically forbid open carry.

Nor can it. Law 400.00 provides license types which state where and why someone may carry. Nowhere does it regulate how the weapon can be carried.

Again, I ask: how is someone supposed to handgun hunt in NY without breaking this supposed law? How is someone even allowed to unholster their pistol from concealment and fire it at the range? Law 400.00 only specifies that a pistol can be 'had" and 'concealed.' Therefore, according to your line of logic, no one is allowed to hunt with or even unholster their pistol to target shoot, since such actions aren't specified as an "exception" to law 265.00.

Your logic is inherently flawed. The act of open carry and target shooting, for a pistol or a legal long gun, is implicitly allowed by NYS. Why? Because if those activities were illegal, it would explicitly stated as such in the law. That's how laws work; they inform the citizen of prohibited behaviors.

I've yet to see the legal text which does exactly that, though you did promise you would show the relevant text. And if open carry was truly illegal, handgun hunting and target shooting would be illegal activities by extension of that legal logic....and yet they aren't illegal. Thousands of people engage in those activities annually and I've yet to hear of one arrest for open carrying.

 

[Doc8404]

I open carried in Stewart’s the other day.
I’m still here. Alive. Not in jail.

 

[HighlandLofts]

This again?

 

[SomeSoldier]

You guys are trying to make sense of a nonsensical law by saying well how else can you carry it at a range. Is a rifle not a firearm? Doesn't make sense does it? So if I have a rifle and cut the barrel to 15in now magically it becomes a firearm where previously it wasn't?

You see what I'm getting at? The same can be said about carry. It doesn't make sense but people who wrote the laws wrote it that way. They took no consideration into how to carry it at the range or while hunting just like they took no consideration into exempting law enforcement when the unsafe act was written.

@Upstate43 , my point about the premise permit is that because you can own the firearm associated with it, it doesn't mean you can open carry it throughout the state. That's illegal since you don't have a license to carry it. It's punishable by a misdemeanor according to penal law 400. Why is it punishable by a misdemeanor according to penal law 400? Because you violated the conditions of penal law 400. The same goes for someone with a carry permit. It's only exemption is to carry it concealed. This isn't like Pennsylvania where mere possession is legal and you can carry it openly without a license.. You need a license to conceal carry it there. Here mere possession is illegal unless exempted. And that exemption is in penal law 400 to have it and carry it concealed.

Every lawyer that talks about the issue says that open carry is illegal. NRA lawyers say that it's illegal. But yet you two think it's not illegal. You two are seeing something that no one else does.

Penal law 400 gives you the exemption to have it and carry it concealed. It doesn't give you the exemption to have it and carry it concealed or open. Because if carrying it concealed was the only exemption to penal law 265, then a premise permit holder can open carry it anywhere. It's giving you permission to have it and if you are going to carry it, it needs to be concealed. Just the mere fact that it says, "to have it." means that you aren't exempted from having it unless you have a certain license. And guess what that license says in the penal law in regards to carry in it for an exemption?

Point to the law that specifically states that security guards can open carry.

 

[BDinPutnam]

THIRD BASE.

Someone tell me where in the law it says every county can have a different set of rules (and different outcomes for similarly situated people).

 

[Marine Cpl]

Point to the law that specifically states that security guards can open carry.

It doesn't. They do because it would be stupid for them to have to do so in uniform.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Point to the law that specifically states that security guards can open carry.

Show me the legal analysis which states that open carry is illegal in NY. I've seen internet bloggers claim as much. I've yet to see any lawyer write a position paper on that issue.

Moreover, I'm still wondering: how is someone supposed to handgun hunt in NY (which is allowed according to the DEC regs) without breaking this implied law?



The problem is that you keep referring to to Laws 400.00 and 265.00, but you're not quoting or referring to any of the specific text to prove your point. Where, in either of those laws, does it explicitly state that open carry is illegal?

A premise holder can only carry on his/her premise, as per what the license clause states.
An 'unrestricted' permit holder can carry regardless of place of possession or employment. The license clause specifically states "have and carry concealed" but it does not specifically forbid open carry.

Nor can it. Law 400.00 provides license types which state where and why someone may carry. Nowhere does it regulate how the weapon can be carried.

Again, I ask: how is someone supposed to handgun hunt in NY without breaking this supposed law? How is someone even allowed to unholster their pistol from concealment and fire it at the range? Law 400.00 only specifies that a pistol can be 'had" and 'concealed.' Therefore, according to your line of logic, no one is allowed to hunt with or even unholster their pistol to target shoot, since such actions aren't specified as an "exception" to law 265.00.

Your logic is inherently flawed. The act of open carry and target shooting, for a pistol or a legal long gun, is implicitly allowed by NYS. Why? Because if those activities were illegal, it would explicitly stated as such in the law. That's how laws work; they inform the citizen of prohibited behaviors.

I've yet to see the legal text which does exactly that, though you did promise you would show the relevant text. And if open carry was truly illegal, handgun hunting and target shooting would be illegal activities by extension of that legal logic....and yet they aren't illegal. Thousands of people engage in those activities annually and I've yet to hear of one arrest for open carrying.

First you have to learn how laws work. Things are legal unless the law says otherwise. It'll never say what's legal but rather what's illegal or else the law would be infinite with written word on what's legal. Walking is legal, breathing is legal, sleeping on Sunday afternoons is legal, ect...

In NY's case, they made handgun possession and carry illegal right off the bat. I've pointed to those sections already. So it's illegal unless exempted and the exemptions are only for concealed carry. It's not difficult to understand that. That is why a premise permit holder cannot open carry in Walmart. The law only gives him an exemption to own and remove the firearm from the premises under certain conditions.

In our case, we have exemptions to have (own) and carry concealed. No exemption has been written in the law for open carry.

What you have to understand is that laws are poorly written by people who are incompetent. If you can get around to understanding that, then you'll understand why the catch 22's aren't enforced and security guards in uniform along with hunters in the field or permit carriers at the range or on their properties are left alone.

No cop wants to waste his time enforcing an oversight just like they didn't enforce the laws on themselves or nuclear security guards who needed to ignore the law to do their jobs when the Unsafe Act forgot to exempt them from the 7 round limit. To this day they ignore that limit on security guards in high risk installations like nuclear facilities and ignore security guards open carrying in uniform because not doing so would be stupid.

 

[nortatoga]

THIRD BASE.

Someone tell me where in the law it says every county can have a different set of rules (and different outcomes for similarly situated people).

The legislature gave licensing officers broad power in issuing hand gun licenses! And if you are one that feels all Counties should be the same, remember this it would take the legislature to change this policy. And do you really think that would change Counties that issue restricted licenses to unrestricted or Counties that issue unrestricted to restricted? The later is more likely!

 

[spat]

First you have to learn how laws work. Things are legal unless the law says otherwise. It'll never say what's legal but rather what's illegal or else the law would be infinite with written word on what's legal. Walking is legal, breathing is legal, sleeping on Sunday afternoons is legal, ect...

In NY's case, they made handgun possession and carry illegal right off the bat. I've pointed to those sections already. So it's illegal unless exempted and the exemptions are only for concealed carry. It's not difficult to understand that. That is why a premise permit holder cannot open carry in Walmart. The law only gives him an exemption to own and remove the firearm from the premises under certain conditions.

In our case, we have exemptions to have (own) and carry concealed. No exemption has been written in the law for open carry.

What you have to understand is that laws are poorly written by people who are incompetent. If you can get around to understanding that, then you'll understand why the catch 22's aren't enforced and security guards in uniform along with hunters in the field or permit carriers at the range or on their properties are left alone.

No cop wants to waste his time enforcing an oversight just like they didn't enforce the laws on themselves or nuclear security guards who needed to ignore the law to do their jobs when the Unsafe Act forgot to exempt them from the 7 round limit. To this day they ignore that limit on security guards in high risk installations like nuclear facilities and ignore security guards open carrying in uniform because not doing so would be stupid.

Ok, so open carry is just as illegal in walmart as it is in the field hunting. Is that what you're saying ?

 

[nortatoga]

Open carry of a handgun while hunting is legal if and when it is your only firearm. So if hunting with a rifle your handgun needs to be conceal. When you leave the woods your handgun needs to be concealed. But hey don't take my word check with DEC yourself!

 

[BDinPutnam]

The legislature gave licensing officers broad power in issuing hand gun licenses! And if you are one that feels all Counties should be the same, remember this it would take the legislature to change this policy. And do you really think that would change Counties that issue restricted licenses to unrestricted or Counties that issue unrestricted to restricted? The later is more likely!

Oh, I agree with you on this, don't get me wrong.

I'd also like to know where the random "administrative restrictions" come into play. Presumably through that same authority, and quite probably by way of the vagueness of the state law- hell, we have gone what, 10 pages on this one issue so far?

As far as hunting is concerned too, where does DEC intersect with penal code? If I have a "sportsman/target" permit am I permitted to carry concealed if hunting with shotgun? For that matter, am I actually *required* to carry concealed in that scenario?

 

[nortatoga]

Oh, I agree with you on this, don't get me wrong.

I'd also like to know where the random "administrative restrictions" come into play. Presumably through that same authority, and quite probably by way of the vagueness of the state law- hell, we have gone what, 10 pages on this one issue so far?

As far as hunting is concerned too, where does DEC intersect with penal code? If I have a "sportsman/target" permit am I permitted to carry concealed if hunting with shotgun? For that matter, am I actually *required* to carry concealed in that scenario?

DEC can intersect with any part of the penal code as they are still NYS law enforcement along with DEC laws and regulations.

As I know areas that are restricted to hunting with a shogun are okay to also hunt with a handgun or muzzleloader. And as I posted above if hunting with a long gun (which would be your primary firearm) the handgun needs to be concealed.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Ok, so open carry is just as illegal in walmart as it is in the field hunting. Is that what you're saying ?

Yep.

 

[Different Drummer]

The legislature gave licensing officers broad power in issuing hand gun licenses! And if you are one that feels all Counties should be the same, remember this it would take the legislature to change this policy. And do you really think that would change Counties that issue restricted licenses to unrestricted or Counties that issue unrestricted to restricted? The later is more likely!

I have always thought the reason that Licensing officers in some Counties were allowed to place administrative restrictions on NYS CCW licenses
was a result of the courts upholding the practice. Perhaps I am mistaken.
Where can I find any documentation that licensing officers are granted "broad power" by the legislature in NY law?
I am not arguing the issue and sincerely want to know in an effort to better educate myself in regards to the topic at hand.
Legislature's make laws and at times amend existing laws. Therefore, perhaps my too simple reasoning concludes incorrectly that the "broad power"
granted to the licensing officers can be found written as law.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I open carried in Stewart’s the other day.
I’m still here. Alive. Not in jail.

I carried in a post office and am still alive or not in jail. Oh. Wait. That wasn't me I'm case anyone's important is listening.

 

[nortatoga]

A Judge can restrict a license at any time for any reason: the licensing officer is statutorily invested with the power to sua sponte revoke or cancel a license (see, Penal Law § 400.00[11][other than in New York City and Nassau and Suffolk Counties, a judge or justice of a court of record acts as the licensing officer]). This extraordinary power reposed in a licensing officer in and of itself supports respondent s determination to restrict the scope of petitioner s license.
(Sua Sponte: Lat. Of his or its own will or motion; voluntarily; without prompting or suggestion. Black's Law Dictionary, 4th edition.)

 

[SomeSoldier]

First you have to learn how laws work. Things are legal unless the law says otherwise. It'll never say what's legal but rather what's illegal or else the law would be infinite with written word on what's legal. Walking is legal, breathing is legal, sleeping on Sunday afternoons is legal, ect...

In NY's case, they made handgun possession and carry illegal right off the bat. I've pointed to those sections already. So it's illegal unless exempted and the exemptions are only for concealed carry. It's not difficult to understand that. That is why a premise permit holder cannot open carry in Walmart. The law only gives him an exemption to own and remove the firearm from the premises under certain conditions.

In our case, we have exemptions to have (own) and carry concealed. No exemption has been written in the law for open carry.

What you have to understand is that laws are poorly written by people who are incompetent. If you can get around to understanding that, then you'll understand why the catch 22's aren't enforced and security guards in uniform along with hunters in the field or permit carriers at the range or on their properties are left alone.

No cop wants to waste his time enforcing an oversight just like they didn't enforce the laws on themselves or nuclear security guards who needed to ignore the law to do their jobs when the Unsafe Act forgot to exempt them from the 7 round limit. To this day they ignore that limit on security guards in high risk installations like nuclear facilities and ignore security guards open carrying in uniform because not doing so would be stupid.

So cops are now judges and can interpret the laws as they see fit. Perfect. And we the people should just turn our back and accept that our masters know best.

 

[Marine Cpl]

So cops are now judges and can interpret the laws as they see fit. Perfect. And we the people should just turn our back and accept that our masters know best.

It's always been that way.

 

[SomeSoldier]

It's always been that way.

No it hasn't, we let it get that way. Cops are enforcement of the law, executive branch. Cops say it all the time, "tell it to the judge, I just enforce the law".

 

[Upstate43]

First you have to learn how laws work. Things are legal unless the law says otherwise.

I've been saying that from the get-go. Why has it taken you this long to agree with me?

In NY's case, they made handgun possession and carry illegal right off the bat. I've pointed to those sections already. So it's illegal unless exempted and the exemptions are only for concealed carry. It's not difficult to understand that. That is why a premise permit holder cannot open carry in Walmart. The law only gives him an exemption to own and remove the firearm from the premises under certain conditions.

No, a premises-holder can't open carry throughout the state because the license clause in 400.00 specifically states where he/she is allowed to carry. It does not mandate open or concealed carry while on said premises.

In our case, we have exemptions to have (own) and carry concealed. No exemption has been written in the law for open carry.

The "exemption" we (referring to unrestricted permit holders) have is to own and possess a pistol, which falls into the category of "firearms" that would otherwise be considered illegal according to law 265.00. Nowhere in law 265.00 does it state that open carry is illegal. It merely states that possession of certain weapons and firearms are illegal. Law 400.00 provides exemptions to that by way of pistol permits.

I agree that the law is poorly written. The problem with your interpretation of it is this: Nowhere does law 400.00 or law 265.00 explicitly state that open carry is illegal. Nowhere does it state that handgun hunting or target shooting are illegal. It doesn't specifically mention those activities as "exemptions" to law 265.00, but we all, to include the police and judges, understand that such activities are allowed, right? Even a premises permit-holder is legally allowed to take his pistol to a firing range for practice. According to your logic, it shouldn't be legal for a premises permit-holder to do that because such actions aren't specifically listed as permitted in law 400.00. But premises permit-holders take their pistols off their property to go target shooting all the time. And unrestricted permit holders take their pistols hunting and/or target shooting all the time as well.

None of those activities are specifically listed as "exemptions" in law 400.00. But, like open carry, they are implicitly considered legal. Why? Because, as you stated earlier:

Things are legal unless the law says otherwise.

Open carry of a handgun while hunting is legal if and when it is your only firearm. So if hunting with a rifle your handgun needs to be conceal. When you leave the woods your handgun needs to be concealed. But hey don't take my word check with DEC yourself!

This is a unsupported argument. Nowhere in Conservation or Penal law does it specifically state open carry of handgun is allowed if its your only firearm. Nowhere does the law state that your pistol needs to be concealed upon leaving the woods. If I'm wrong, please show me the language that proves otherwise.

Handgun hunting, and the open carry associated with it, is allowed because open carry is considered implicitly legal. If it were illegal, there would be a law that explicitly states as much...there is no such law.

 

[nortatoga]

@UpStateEd do we need a pistol license to own a hand gun in NYS?