Erie PA O.C. Advice

[Chevusa]

and imagine asking that question on a NY forum (let's be real you didnt come here to ask a question it was a soap box for you to say look at me for doing something countless others have done)

Instead of a simpler option

1) go to the companies corporate website and see what their policy is on carrying a gun (omg who would have thought)

Or

2) let's pretend it wasn't a corporate owned company who have policy's posted for everyone to check out and read... could go to a PA forum and ask people who actually live in the state and area about said policy's...

Reading comprehension is not your friend. I clearly stated I researched and found nothing on the website.

Why not ask others here who may have similar experiences? Why go searching for a forum and create an account to ask one question? Seems unreasonable to me.

Finally, don’t worry about what I’m doing. You don’t like it? Don’t read it and don’t respond to it. Good day!

 

[BDinPutnam]

Funny but outside of situations like on my property, on a range at a class, or hunting, I never really felt a need or desire to OC.

Then again, I've also never heard the phrase "is it in" from a woman.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Reading comprehension is not your friend. I clearly stated I researched and found nothing on the website.

Why not ask others here who may have similar experiences? Why go searching for a forum and create an account to ask one question? Seems unreasonable to me.

Finally, don’t worry about what I’m doing. You don’t like it? Don’t read it and don’t respond to it. Good day!

Trust me i do as little worrying about what you do as possible especially when you make threads like

Hey I need help...... im going to open carry in a state that its legal.... i open carried... nothing happened..... stop being mean to me....

 

[togmaster]

Funny but outside of situations like on my property, on a range at a class, or hunting, I never really felt a need or desire to OC.

Then again, I've also never heard the phrase "is it in" from a woman.

Now we are talking correlation.

 

[Chevusa]

Trust me i do as little worrying about what you do as possible especially when you make threads like

Hey I need help...... im going to open carry in a state that its legal.... i open carried... nothing happened..... stop being mean to me....

Funny. The ones around here said it probably wouldn’t go so well. Again the original intent of the thread was a specific question about a specific business. I know it’s hard.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Funny. The ones around here said it probably wouldn’t go so well. Again the original intent of the thread was a specific question about a specific business. I know it’s hard.

Weird cause you asked on a state forum that isn't the state that you were going to... yup you really wanted answers

 

[Chevusa]

Weird cause you asked on a state forum that isn't the state that you were going to... yup you really wanted answers

Yup nobody from NY goes to Erie PA. I was the first ever.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Yup nobody from NY goes to Erie PA. I was the first ever.

Did I say that? Reading comprehension....

I know plenty of people here go to Florida, guess what I'm not asking a NY forum for laws or policies for Florida.


Went to Wisconsin 2 or 3 years ago (drove) wasn't sure if my NY license or PA license would cover me on the whole drive or part of the drive and/or while in Wisconsin... guess what I didnt ask people in NY....

Followed up with wondered what the carry laws are in Wisconsin incase I did decide to bring my gun with me.... hm wait i didnt use THIS forum to try and figure out the laws .. i (well used the Wisconsin penal code to start) looked up Wisconsin gun forums

 

[Chevusa]

Did I say that? Reading comprehension....

I know plenty of people here go to Florida, guess what I'm not asking a NY forum for laws or policies for Florida.


Went to Wisconsin 2 or 3 years ago (drove) wasn't sure if my NY license or PA license would cover me on the whole drive or part of the drive and/or while in Wisconsin... guess what I didnt ask people in NY....

Followed up with wondered what the carry laws are in Wisconsin incase I did decide to bring my gun with me.... hm wait i didnt use THIS forum to try and figure out the laws .. i (well used the Wisconsin penal code to start) looked up Wisconsin gun forums

A popular city an hour away is quite a bit different than Florida or other states. Good try though.

You are dismissed.

 

[Edwardteach72]

A popular city an hour away is quite a bit different than Florida or other states. Good try though.

You are dismissed.

Yup really different than Florida which is one of the biggest tour destinations for vacations, oh and weird I wonder if any people from NY spend winter time in the state of Florida... ha imagine if enough people did that, maybe we could give them a fun nick name .. idk maybe like "snowbirds" man that would be a cool idea

 

[Edwardteach72]

A popular city an hour away is quite a bit different than Florida or other states. Good try though.

You are dismissed.

Hmm live an hour away from a PA city but can't be bothered to join the PA gun forum hmm yup lots of evidence pointing to you didnt actually want any information, but actually wanted to just grandstanding

 

[repete]

Yup nobody from NY goes to Erie PA. I was the first ever.

Can't get there from here!

 

[Marine Cpl]

If you have the ability to CC I can't see the point to OC while out and about.

He wants attention.

 

[Chevusa]

He wants attention.

But the "fisherman" who was not actually doing any fishing while carrying an AR-15 was your hero a few weeks ago. Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[Marine Cpl]

But the "fisherman" who was not actually doing any fishing while carrying an AR-15 was your hero a few weeks ago. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Nope. Not my hero. Look back at my numerous posts against open carry in public from a tactical perspective. That video was posted to show oathbreakers.

 

[Chevusa]

Nope. Not my hero. Look back at my numerous posts against open carry in public from a tactical perspective. That video was posted to show oathbreakers.

Tacti-cool!

Many opinions for and against.

None can be proven.

Many carry openly every day with no snipers taking them out.

The good news is what I do has no effect on you.

You do what you want. I will do what I want.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I’m only going to say this to you once. Afterwards you can argue with yourself. Sure not much happens to open carriers. People generally are good people and don’t go around committing serious crimes. Most open carriers also do so in good neighborhoods. They don’t do so in the hood in a packed bodega or in a packed train car or bus in a bad neighborhood of Philly.

Positives. More comfortable. Slightly faster draw by fractions of a second. May deter amateur criminals looking for an easy opportunity.

Now the cons.

Attention. People that would normally not look at you now are. The anti-gun lady that would have just walked by you is now looking at you.

You open yourself up to police response if you get into an argument with someone where normally such argument would not garner a police response at all. That argument with the guy who bumped into you on purpose or cut you in line now can be a major issue that warrants police. You’ll have to bite your tongue and not be aggressive with your mouth and let the idiot win and have his way.

If something horrible does happen, people look at you to act. If concealed and seen running out the back door with everyone else while the shooting is happening, no one will bat an eye. If open carrying, you are now the Coward from Broward regardless if you were outnumbered by 5 guys with heavy weaponry and were just trying to get away unscathed to your family.

You could be targeted by criminals. Not the petty criminal looking for the easy fix but rather the organized criminal. If you are standing in line at the bank and 3 come in with shotguns, you may be targeted. I know I would target you if I was the one robbing the bank. I sure as hell ain’t going to let you be lying down on the floor with everyone else with your gun on your hip if I see you.

If the police respond to any situation coming in hot, they may shoot you.

You could get robbed. It’s happened many times before. I posted numerous examples on other threads. Guys with other guns getting the drop on them and others getting hit in the back of the head with blunt instruments.

Bottom line, there is no tactical reason to do so. You did so for the attention and posted here about it for the attention as well. If open carry were so superior, undercover police wouldn’t conceal. Federal Air Marshals in plain clothes trying to be incognito so that they aren’t targeted if there was an attempted plane takeover, wouldn’t conceal. They conceal for a reason.

 

[repete]

But the "fisherman" who was not actually doing any fishing while carrying an AR-15 was your hero a few weeks ago. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Your deflecting. The fisherman was also looking for attention and he got it! Not saying he was right or wrong.

 

[nortatoga]

If SteyrAug had a son.....

 

[Edwardteach72]

If SteyrAug had a son.....

Oh man almost forgot about that dude

 

[Elwood]

I’m only going to say this to you once. Afterwards you can argue with yourself. Sure not much happens to open carriers. People generally are good people and don’t go around committing serious crimes. Most open carriers also do so in good neighborhoods. They don’t do so in the hood in a packed bodega or in a packed train car or bus in a bad neighborhood of Philly.

Positives. More comfortable. Slightly faster draw by fractions of a second. May deter amateur criminals looking for an easy opportunity.

Now the cons.

Attention. People that would normally not look at you now are. The anti-gun lady that would have just walked by you is now looking at you.

You open yourself up to police response if you get into an argument with someone where normally such argument would not garner a police response at all. That argument with the guy who bumped into you on purpose or cut you in line now can be a major issue that warrants police. You’ll have to bite your tongue and not be aggressive with your mouth and let the idiot win and have his way.

If something horrible does happen, people look at you to act. If concealed and seen running out the back door with everyone else while the shooting is happening, no one will bat an eye. If open carrying, you are now the Coward from Broward regardless if you were outnumbered by 5 guys with heavy weaponry and were just trying to get away unscathed to your family.

You could be targeted by criminals. Not the petty criminal looking for the easy fix but rather the organized criminal. If you are standing in line at the bank and 3 come in with shotguns, you may be targeted. I know I would target you if I was the one robbing the bank. I sure as hell ain’t going to let you be lying down on the floor with everyone else with your gun on your hip if I see you.

If the police respond to any situation coming in hot, they may shoot you.

You could get robbed. It’s happened many times before. I posted numerous examples on other threads. Guys with other guns getting the drop on them and others getting hit in the back of the head with blunt instruments.

Bottom line, there is no tactical reason to do so. You did so for the attention and posted here about it for the attention as well. If open carry were so superior, undercover police wouldn’t conceal. Federal Air Marshals in plain clothes trying to be incognito so that they aren’t targeted if there was an attempted plane takeover, wouldn’t conceal. They conceal for a reason.

Couldn’t agree more with you here. Spot on.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Oh man almost forgot about that dude

@GUNSICK you ever collect that money?

 

[Acer-m14]

Oh man almost forgot about that dude

i remember him just forgot his name .. knew it was S something ..

also has anyone seen DieselTec lol

 

[Tisto]

i remember him just forgot his name .. knew it was S something ..

also has anyone seen DieselTec lol

Do you miss him ?

 

[Tisto]

i remember him just forgot his name .. knew it was S something ..

also has anyone seen DieselTec lol

Just for you, I'll do a bit of role playing :

[ in my best Diesel Tech voice ] " You shouldn't open carry anywhere. Ever. In fact, you shouldn't carry concealed, either. Guns are dangerous. The only people that should have guns are people that hunt. They should only have bolt actions, and only need 3 rounds per year."

There - if you still miss him, let one of the moderators know and maybe they will give you his email so you can send greetings.

 

[Acer-m14]

Just for you, I'll do a bit of role playing :

[ in my best Diesel Tech voice ] " You shouldn't open carry anywhere. Ever. In fact, you shouldn't carry concealed, either. Guns are dangerous. The only people that should have guns are people that hunt. They should only have bolt actions, and only need 3 rounds per year."

There - if you still miss him, let one of the moderators know and maybe they will give you his email so you can send greetings.

crap .. i carried my replica Glock 19 bb gun in a Serpa holster yesterday in town, my tee shirt was to to short so it was open carry .. fk it lol .. nothing happened

 

[MillidotShooter]

 

[GUNSICK]

@GUNSICK you ever collect that money?

I’m pretty sure the old fuck died on me so he didn’t have to pay up.

 

[Chevusa]

1/2

The Open Carry Argument

My primary goal when I’m out and about, besides whatever I went out and about to do, is to go about peaceably and not be the victim of a violent crime. To that end I carry a firearm whenever I go out as well as follow all the other standard safety practices like maintaining situational awareness, staying out of high crime areas, and avoiding confrontation. I also have a larger overall goal of making it through my life without shooting anyone. Simply put, I don’t want to be responsible, legally or morally, for another’s death. Those two goals might appear at first blush to be mutually exclusive, and with concealed carry it would be a difficult set of goals to realize.

Carry of any firearm or other weapon for defensive purposes is a solemn responsibility. Those of us that do (openly or concealed) are mortified by the idea, constantly promoted by the pacifists, that our behavior is more reckless because we are armed. In other words, because we carry a handgun we take more risks than we would if we were unarmed. While it would be dishonest to claim we are all responsible gun owners, it is my belief that the vast majority of us are. Regardless of what or how you carry, you need to come to the realization that you are setting yourself up to lose. Whenever you are placed in a defensive situation, you will always lose; it’s only the degree of loss that’s negotiable. Ayoob hits on this in his book, In the Gravest Extreme. He suggests tossing the robber a small wad of cash and moving off, even if you could prevail with a weapon. There’s a very good reason for this. Regardless of how skilled you are at drawing your weapon, you are going to lose. It may be only a minor loss, like being very shaken up and not sleeping well for a few days, or it may be a major loss, like becoming fertilizer, or (most likely) it may be somewhere in-between, but you always lose. Your life will not be the same even if you prevail.

Carrying a concealed firearm presents to a criminal that I am unarmed. Every study I’ve ever read, not most but every study, says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim. That only makes sense, right? Robbers, rapists, or carjackers might be dumb and opportunistic, but they have the same instinctual sense of self preservation we all have. Hyenas don’t attack lions to steal the gazelle the lions have just killed. It’s all about risk management; are the potential gains (a tasty gazelle dinner) worth the risks (pain and damage the lion’s teeth will cause), and does the hyena really need to test the lion to figure out the answer? No, the hyena can see the lion’s teeth and knows to stay well clear.

Deterrent Value:
When I’m carrying concealed I feel like my ‘teeth’ are hidden, and thus of no real deterrent value. If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all. I recognize that there are some people who (think they) want to be victimized so they can whip out their concealed firearm and ‘surprise’ the mugger; that is, in my opinion, foolish immaturity. Concealed carry is good; it throws a wrench in the works for criminals who might see the teeming masses as a smorgasbord of financial gain. This deterrent effect is, nonetheless, indirect and often nil. At some point the thug will weigh the risks vs. the gains; is his current desperation for money/drugs/booze/gold grille greater than the gamble that one of those people might be carrying a gun? If he decides to play the odds, which helped along with surprise tip the scale in his favor, he will attack. Will his attack allow enough time for me to draw my concealed firearm to affect a defense? Maybe, but then again, maybe not.

Remember, I don’t want to be a victim and I don’t want to shoot anyone. So how do I realize both goals; or how do I make them inclusive? I can do that through open carry. By making it clear and obvious that I am armed, that I have teeth, I tip the risk scale to the point that the criminal’s gains are far outweighed by the risk. There is no ambiguity when the thug is doing his risk assessment, there’s something right there in plain sight that can quickly and painfully change or terminate his life. You may not think his life has much value, but as I mentioned before, he has the same sense of self preservation as any other living creature and to him it’s every bit as valuable as yours is to you. It would be foolish to ignore this indisputable fact when you develop your overall tactical strategy.

The Five Stages of Violent Crime
I am a firm believer in this defense theology and urge anyone who carries a firearm for protection (and even those who do not) to follow the link and read it carefully. Please, for your and your family’s sake, read that. Drill down into the hyperlinks for better explanations; absorb as much information as you can. A violent crime does not begin at the point where one person with ill intent draws a weapon or attacks another.

The Five Stages of Violent Crime:
Crime and violence are processes that take time to develop. The attack is not the first step, the preliminary triangle must be built. There are five distinct stages that are easily identified:
1) Intent
2) Interview
3) Positioning
4) Attack
5) Reaction
I do not believe the act begins after the BG has made his intentions known by drawing on you (attack); it began when he formed the intent. Well, there’s not a lot I can do personally to stop another’s intent, so I need to look a little farther along in the sequence and try to derail that train before it gets to the attack. For the sake of argument, let’s remove weapons from the equation for just a moment. A 5’2” unarmed attacker isn’t going to choose a 6’6” victim over a 5’1” victim, right? He’s going to attack the easier target. Now let’s come back to the reality of violent crime and add back the weapons. Concealed carry presumes it is better to wait until the opponent has drawn his knife or gun and then try to ‘fix’ the situation. It’s seems a bit foolish to promote the idea that it’s better to attempt to stop a violent crime in the fourth stage when you could instead prevent it in the second. A concealed weapon cannot deter an attack at the ‘interview’ stage; it’s completely ineffectual in that role. Open carry is the only method that provides a direct deterrent. Let’s say the bad-guy missed the openly carried pistol and holsterduring the interview stage, and has proceeded to the ‘positioning’ stage. Chances are pretty good he’ll see it at some point then, right? Then, let’s say the planets have all aligned just so and he, for whatever reason, has begun his attack despite your openly carried sidearm. At this point, the OCer is on level footing with the CCer, the attack has begun. Who has the advantage? Well, I’m going to say that with all things being equal (skill level and equipment) the OCer has a speed of draw advantage over the CCer.

 

[Chevusa]

2/2

First One To Be Shot:
There are some who criticize open carry and claim it will make you more of a target or ‘the first one shot’ when a robber walks into the 7-11, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence that this has ever happened. If the robber walks in and sees that you’re armed, his whole plan has encountered an unexpected variable. In bank robberies where he might expect to see an armed guard he will have already factored that possibility into his plan, but only for the armed guard, not for open or concealed carry citizens. No robber robs a bank without at least a rudimentary plan. Nevertheless, being present for a bank robbery is an extremely remote possibility for most of us regardless of our preferred method of handgun carry, so let’s go back in the 7-11. If the robber sees someone is armed he is forced to either significantly alter the plan or abort it outright. Robbing is an inherently apprehensive occupation, and one that doesn’t respond well to instant modifications. He is not prepared to commit murder when he only planned for larceny. He knows that a petty robbery will not garner the intense police manhunt a murder would. He doesn’t know if you’re an armed citizen or a police officer and isn’t going to take the time to figure it out. Either way, if someone in the 7-11 is unexpectedly armed, how many others might be similarly adorned and where might they be? Does this unexpectedly armed individual have a partner who is likewise armed nearby, someone who is watching right now? Self preservation compels him to abort the plan for one that is less risky. So we see that the logic matches the history; open carriers are not the first ones shot because it doesn’t make sense in any common street crime scenario that they would be. If your personal self protection plan emphasizes “Hollywood” style crimes over the more realistic street mugging, it might be best to stay home.

Surprise:
Probably the most common condemnation of open carry comes from the armchair tacticians who believe it’s better to have the element of surprise in a criminal encounter. Although this was touched on in the previous paragraph about deterrence, I’ll expand on it specifically here because there are some important truths you need to consider before you lean too heavily on this false support. Surprise as a defensive tactic is often based on unrealistic or ill-thought out scenarios, and seems to exist only in the minds of concealed carry firearms proponents. The circumstance where several street toughs surround and taunt you for a while before robbing you, like in some Charles Bronson movie, is not realistic; the mugger wants to get in and out as fast as possible. In most cases you will have only seconds to realize what’s happening, make a decision, and react. Imagine you’re walking along the sidewalk when two gangsta looking teenagers suddenly appear at the corner coming in the opposite direction. You have only seconds to react if their intent was to victimize you. Do you draw your concealed firearm now or wait until there’s an actual visible threat? If they are just on their way to church and you pull a gun on them, you are the criminal and you will likely forever lose your firearms rights for such a foolish action. If you don’t draw and they pull a knife or pistol when they’re just a couple steps away, your only options are draw (if you think you can) or comply. Imagine staring at the shiny blade of a knife being held by a very nervous and violent mugger, three inches from your or your wife’s throat and having to decide whether or not you have time to draw from concealment. The element of surprise may not do you any good; in fact the only surprising thing that might happen is that your concealed carry pistol gets taken along with your wallet. The thug will later get a good chuckle with his buddies about how you brought a gun to a knife fight. The simple truth is that while surprise is a monumentally superior tactical maneuver, it is exclusively an offensive action, not a defensive one. What many internet commandos call ‘defensive surprise’ is nothing more than damage control, a last ditch effort to fight your way back out of a dangerous situation. I am not aware of any army that teaches using surprise as a defense against attack. No squad of soldiers goes on patrol with their weapons hidden so that they can ‘surprise’ the enemy should they walk into an ambush.

It Will Get Stolen:
Another common criticism of open carry is that the firearm itself will be the target of theft, prompting a criminal to attack simply to get the gun from you. Like the previous example of being the first one shot in a robbery, above, this is despite the fact that there is no credible evidence it happens. It also blindly ignores the more obvious fact that anything you possess can make you the target of a crime, be it a car, a watch, or even a female companion (girlfriend, wife, or daughter). Crooks commonly steal for only one of two reasons; to get something you have that they want, or to get something that you have so they can sell it and buy something they want. I don’t claim it could never happen; just that it’s so remote a possibility that it doesn’t warrant drastic alterations to our self defense strategies. If you believe otherwise, leave your wife, children, watch, sunglasses, jewelry, and cell phone at home, hop into your Pinto wagon, and head out to do your thing. Very often, someone critical of open carry will cite some example of a uniformed police officer whose gun was taken by a violent criminal, and yes, this does indeed happen. The argument, however, breaks down when they assume the officer was targeted solely to steal his firearm. What is more likely is that the officer was targeted merely for being a police officer and the gun was stolen as a byproduct of the attack. More often, the officer’s gun is taken during the struggle to get the suspect into custody due to an entirely unrelated matter. However, let’s suppose, for argument, that a police officer really was attacked just to get his firearm. What actions did the police department take to prevent it from reoccurring? Did they demand that their officers carry concealed? No, of course not. You should, like the police, prioritize your defense strategy for the most likely threat first, and the least likely last.

It Scares People:
One other statement against open carry I hear is that it damages public perception of firearms owners, or that by carrying openly we are not being good ambassadors to the public. While there are some people who have a genuine fear of firearms, due either to some horrible past experience or anti-gunindoctrination, the majority of people are either indifferent to them or quite fascinated by them. I’ve never kept track of the dozens of fellow citizens I’ve encountered who have marveled at the idea of open carry, but I do know exactly how many have expressed displeasure at it; one. People are scared of many things for many reasons; however, pretending those things do not exist only perpetuates the fear. Someone who is disturbed by open carry is going to be every bit as disturbed by concealed carry. The only effective way to overcome a fear is to come to the intellectual realization that the phobia is based on emotion and not on fact. By being a firsthand witness that a firearm was carried responsibly and peaceably, and wasn’t being carried in the commission of a crime, one who was apprehensive about firearms discovers their fear is not fact based, but emotional. Thus, open carry can be a very effectual way of helping to overcome the emotionally based fear of the firearm. After all, you’d be much more likely to believe in ghosts if you saw one rather than if you listened to a ghost story around a campfire. In other words, we give significantly more credibility to the things we experience than we do to the things we hear. The bottom line is that this argument is made by people who don’t, cant, or haven’t carried openly; those of us who do so on a regular basis have an entirely different experience.

I’m Not Comfortable Carrying Openly:
This is really the only reasonable argument against open carry for an individual. We all have a comfort zone for any aspect of our lives and we prefer to stay within that comfort zone. We all agree that it’s better to be armed and never need the firearm than it is to need it and not have it. There is a point where concealing your firearm becomes so problematic, due to conditions like temperature or comfort, that some choose to either leave it behind or carry in such a way that it would be difficult or impossible to draw it quickly. If it takes me five or six seconds to draw my firearm from deep concealment and I had sufficient time before hand to actually do so, I would prefer to use that five or six seconds to avoid the entire encounter. I’m glad we have concealed carry laws in most of the states; it empowers and protects not only us but the general public through the offset deterrent effect. Some of us, however, choose the more direct deterrent effect of open carry.

Conclusion
No, open carry is not the be-all-end-all of self defense any more than concealed carry is. The purpose of this essay is not to convince you to carry a firearm openly, but to merely point out the reasoning I used to determine that it is often the best option for me. If you think otherwise, please feel free to write an essay of your own outlining the reasoning you used. I would suggest that you avoid the intellectual mistake of emphasizing rare or unlikely defense scenarios that many of us will never experience. I believe one should prioritize for the most likely threat, not the least likely threat. I don’t put Hollywood style bank robberies high on my threat list because I rarely go into a bank and those types of robberies are very rare themselves. I live in the most crime riddled city in the northwest; the most likely threat here is some young male with a knife or gun trying to carjack me or mug me on the street, in the park, or in a parking lot. With this knowledge I build my personal self protection plan based on that manner of attack. This may not suit you, especially if you live in Hollywood.