Handgun stopping power, lack of it. Police video

[holdover]

Correct. I apologize for having to use rifle rounds for demonstration , but I believe it demonstrates the weight ratios, and principle better than two smaller calibers . As far the temporal stretch cavity goes,the 45 is always going be larger using similar ammunition, Albeit, Not massively so, Im guessing, roughly 15-20 %. ballpark.

The question becomes, it worth the trade off to you. Does the 15 -20% make a big enough difference to you? That's a personal decision based on your tactical theory .My school of thought is that it is, even though its not a massive difference.

 

[holdover]

I have worked hand in hand with alot FBI, DHS and other type teams. Very rarely you come across an agent with anything other than 9mm. Im not saying all of them use 9 but a good majority do.

I was in Federal law enforcement years ago, everyone in the BP was issued .40 cal with hot loaded hollow points ,

 

[Robin]

Spend as much time practicing with what you have as it takes to read this thread on through and it won't matter what you are shooting. Practice is what seals the deal.
Robin

 

[Marine Cpl]

Correct. I apologize for having to use rifle rounds for demonstration , but I believe it demonstrates the weight ratios, and principle better than two smaller calibers . As far the temporal stretch cavity goes,the 45 is always going be larger using similar ammunition, Albeit, Not massively so, Im guessing, roughly 15-20 %. ballpark.

The question becomes, it worth the trade off to you. Does the 15 -20% make a big enough difference to you? That's a personal decision based on your tactical theory .My school of thought is that it is, even though its not a massive difference.

15 to 20 percent. You are talking about a wound channel that's .355 vs .450 on a solid and about the same respectively with an expanding bullet. It seems like a lot on paper but but in all reality, they are very close. That's why trauma surgeons can't tell the difference between calibers when the bullet isn't recovered.

Permanent wound channels rather than temporal wound channels since temporal channels don't stay permanent like they do with rifle rounds, don't make a difference at the cost of capacity and barrier penetration for me but you are correct.

Whatever makes a difference for you is what you should pick. It's America. You can choose what you want. If a black powder suits you, that's good too.

 

[Marine Cpl]

This is almost funny now...

I agree. Some don't want to read from experts in the field and instead cling on to fabled myths of what certain calibers do to a human body in stopping it.

The facts are out there for anyone that's interested.

 

[71velle]

You wonder why? Perhaps because the leader just likes it? So what about all the other SWAT units that field the 9mm or .40? Wonder why they field those? It's obvious you are searching hard on the internet for the few units that still use them.

You still haven't read the ballistics manual and the sources attached to it haven't you?

Yes I have been searching very hard and came up with nothing. I was trying to find any agency who stopped using 45 because it was less effective than 9mm, and nothing. The only given reasons to go down in caliber it to gain capacity because of very poor hit percentages, or recoil management because too many officers cant meet a very low standard of qualification with larger caliber.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Yes I have been searching very hard and came up with nothing. I was trying to find any agency who stopped using 45 because it was less effective than 9mm, and nothing. The only given reasons to go down in caliber it to gain capacity because of very poor hit percentages, or recoil management because too many officers cant meet a very low standard of qualification with larger caliber.

And barrier penetration. Don't forget that one.

Also, even if you are good with a higher recoiling firearm, you'll be even better with a lower recoiling one. It works for for everyone that way no matter their skill level.

 

[GOPerfect]

And barrier penetration. Don't forget that one.

Also, even if you are good with a higher recoiling firearm, you'll be even better with a lower recoiling one. It works for for everyone that way no matter their skill level.

Even I will agree to all of this post. And yeah, I am that 45ACP guy.

I carry other calibers as well, but my go to round will always be 45. I do not fully understand the science behind all of these rounds. Too be very honest, I don't need to fully understand it. I have always been happy with this round, and I probably always will.

 

[holdover]

I agree. Some don't want to read from experts in the field and instead cling on to fabled myths of what certain calibers do to a human body in stopping it.

The facts are out there for anyone that's interested.

Some people cling to basic science and common sense instead of drinking internet Koolaid .

 

[71velle]

And barrier penetration. Don't forget that one.

Also, even if you are good with a higher recoiling firearm, you'll be even better with a lower recoiling one. It works for for everyone that way no matter their skill level.

I didnt forget penetration and could find no instance where any agency chose to go to 9mm because 45 was failing to penetrate a barrier....

On a fun note I am heading to the range and should be able to do a glock 19/23 comparison to see how caliber affects my shooting. Nothing scientific

 

[Marine Cpl]

I didnt forget penetration and could find no instance where any agency chose to go to 9mm because 45 was failing to penetrate a barrier....

On a fun note I am heading to the range and should be able to do a glock 19/23 comparison to see how caliber affects my shooting. Nothing scientific

You aren't going to find that. Agencies don't publish their testing on YouTube or swat magazine but it's a well known fact that speed penetrates hard barriers better. That's why a .357 Magnum will penetrate a level 2 vest where a .38 Special which is the same bullet can't.

You are looking for a needle in a haystack. Agencies pick their calibers based on cost, FBI tests, or whatever the guy in charge likes. They don't really publish why. If you became the chief of xyz department, you'd pick a .45. Your predecessor behind you may pick whatever the FBI picks based on their tests.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Lol. You still don't get it? What stops a threat? It isn't energy. A hit from a sledgehammer has more energy than a pistol round and even that won't knock you out if hit in non vitals.

You still don't get that energy does stop a threat? I've seen Mike Tyson do it a many of times. Do you really think the energy of a bullet is the same when initially hitting the target as when the target stops it? Have you ever heard of people getting hit in the chest with a hardball after the ball was batted at them and their heart stopping? It has happened more than once. What do you suppose could happen if a bullet stopped a few inches short of the heart? To say energy and mass plays no role in someone being incapacitated is ludicrous.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You still don't get that energy does stop a threat? I've seen Mike Tyson do it a many of times. Do you really think the energy of a bullet is the same when initially hitting the target as when the target stops it? Have you ever heard of people getting hit in the chest with a hardball after the ball was batted at them and their heart stopping? It has happened more than once. What do you suppose could happen if a bullet stopped a few inches short of the heart? To say energy and mass plays no role in someone being incapacitated is ludicrous.

Like the time in 1986 when the perp who got shot with an expanding bullet that stopped 1 inch before the heart and killed numerous FBI agents afterwards? Tell me how energy worked in that case. That's what started this whole bullet testing in the first place and it was determined that energy isn't a factor but rather penetration and shot placement.

You still haven't read the FBI Ballistics Manual and the referenced sources that made up that manual haven't you?

Enough with the references to baseballs and fists. We are talking about bullets that only make holes the diameter of themselves. Plenty of people have been shot in non vital areas near vital areas with .45 ACP's and 10mm's and .357 Magnums. Guess what? They lived. They weren't knocked out or killed by the energy or stopping power or whatever you want to call it.

Read the manual please. And just so you know, a 9mm had more kinetic energy than a .45 ACP.

 

[GOPerfect]

Enough with the references to baseballs and fists. We are talking about bullets that only make holes the diameter of themselves. Plenty of people have been shot in non vital areas near vital areas with .45 ACP's and 10mm's and .357 Magnums. Guess what? They lived. They weren't knocked out or killed by the energy or stopping power or whatever you want to call it.

9MM as well.

 

[ECU Pirates]

LAPD special unit uses 45 ACP I wonder why?

While the main force of the LAPD uses the Beretta 92 pistol chambered in 9mm, the SIS has chosen to issue the .45 ACP cartridge for its detectives. While most police pistols are “carried a lot but fired a little,” that is not the case for the SIS because of the nature of their takedowns. They go with Winchester’s .45 ACP, 230-grain, jacketed-hollow-point Ranger T-Series ammo because they need maximum firepower and, more importantly, maximum stopping power, such as when they move in on heavily armed bank robbers. The possibility of injuries to civilians is increased the longer the engagement ensues. The terrible North Hollywood shootout had street cops and their 9mms unable to take out the up-armored bad guys. That shootout was ended by a few well-placed, 230-grain .45 bullets.

The primary sidearm for the SIS is the Glock 21. This is the gun that is fully stoked with 14 rounds (13 plus one in the chamber) and holstered on the front of the detective’s raid vest. The raid vest is usually locked in the trunk of the unmarked car along with a Benelli M4 12-gauge shotgun and either a Colt LE6920 or an HK416 5.56mm NATO rifle. If the stakeout goes sideways and the detective can’t get to his heavy armament, he has to engage the bad guys with whatever weapon is on his body, so it’s standard operating procedure in the SIS to carry more than one concealed handgun.

Agency Spotlight: LAPD's Elite Stakeout Squad

I think the north Hollywood shoot out was ended with a self inflicted headshot and some rifles.

 

[Marine Cpl]

9MM as well.

Go look up the energy figures between .45 ACP'S and 9mm's on Midway USA. They are the same or within minute differences of one another.

 

[Marine Cpl]

115 gr Winchester white box. 362 foot pounds.

230 gr Winchester white box. 356 foot pounds.

Other brands produce different results. Sometimes the .45 ACP delivers more.

And again, energy doesn't kill. Penetration to vitals do. That's why a shot to the gut with a .45 is more survivable than a shot to the heart with .380.

 

[71velle]

You aren't going to find that. Agencies don't publish their testing on YouTube or swat magazine but it's a well known fact that speed penetrates hard barriers better. That's why a .357 Magnum will perpetrate a level 2 vest where a .38 Special which is the same bullet can't.

You are looking for a needle in a haystack. Agencies pick their calibers based on cost, FBI tests, or whatever the guy in charge likes. They don't really publish why. If you became the chief of xyz department, you'd pick a .45. Your predecessor behind you may pick whatever the FBI picks based on their tests.

If I were in charge I would want to have a list of approved pistols and allow the officer to chose what they think is best. Is I stated before I dont believe in a magic bullet, there is pros and cons to them all.

 

[71velle]

I just stated a new thread of my range time tonight. Dont take it too seriously or read too much into it, it far from any scientific test.

Glock 19 & 23 side by side

 

[holdover]

If maximum penetration was desired. they would use solid steel rounds .But the trade off is , you lose energy distribution into the target, which is why no military in the world uses them for general purpose rounds. Steel doesn't distribute energy as well because its penetration properties are so high. tissue and bone wont slow it down or deform it.

Shelby Foote talked about it in his documentary on the civil war , How a low muzzle velocity and heavy bullet caused multiple amputations because of the extreme damage it did . it traveled slower and thus slowed down faster depositing all or most of its energy into the body causing extreme damage with low velocity rounds.

Striking the vitals is the goal. No argument there . Were talking about missing the vitals.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If maximum penetration was desired. they would use solid steel rounds .But the trade off is , you lose energy distribution into the target, which is why no military in the world uses them for general purpose rounds. Steel doesn't distribute energy as well because its penetration properties are so high. tissue and bone wont slow it down or deform it.

Shelby Foote talked about it in his documentary on the civil war , How a low muzzle velocity and heavy bullet caused multiple amputations because of the extreme damage it did . it traveled slower and thus slowed down faster depositing all or most of its energy into the body causing extreme damage with low velocity rounds.

Striking the vitals is the goal. No argument there . Were talking about missing the vitals.

I guess you still haven't read the report. Energy distribution to the target is a myth with low velocity pistol rounds. The energy distribution to the target is the same as the recoil of the weapon without a recoil spring. To put it into simple terms, what happens when you shoot a steel plate? It barely moves. That's what happens in the body with low velocity pistol rounds. Barely nothing. If it did something, any hit that expanded and doesn't go through would knock the person to the ground.

Read the report and the referenced sources. Guys with much more experience with this than us say otherwise.

And just so you know, a higher velocity pistol round has more kinetic energy than a lower velocity one. The 9mm usually has more kinetic energy than the .45. Even more so with a +p or +p+ or a .357 Sig. Look it up.

 

[Acer-m14]

The energy distribution to the target is the same as the recoil of the weapon without a recoil spring. To put it into simple terms, what happens when you shoot a steel plate? It barely moves. That's what happens in the body with low velocity pistol rounds

why my edc is a Mosin steel core .. that 500ar plate was spinning when hit .. LMAO ..

i haven't followed this fully .. just the title to me was another caliber fight ..

500 lb perp on pcp .. bring in the army tank ..

 

[spat]

The amount of energy impacted on a target is equal to the amount of recoil of the weapon fired. It's Newton's law.

Not even close.


When discharging a firearm, the energy leaving with the bullet is *many times* the recoil energy of the firearm.

The total (plus the heat and velocity of the burned powder gases) equals the chemical energy lost by the powder when it burned.

You are confusing momentum with energy. Both are conserved, but momentum is a vector and energy is a scalar. Momentum is mass times velocity, energy is mass times the square of velocity.

 

[Marine Cpl]

why my edc is a Mosin steel core .. that 500ar plate was spinning when hit .. LMAO ..

i haven't followed this fully .. just the title to me was another caliber fight ..

500 lb perp on pcp .. bring in the army tank ..

Does your plate weigh as much as a person?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Not even close.


When discharging a firearm, the energy leaving with the bullet is *many times* the recoil energy of the firearm.

The total (plus the heat and velocity of the burned powder gases) equals the chemical energy lost by the powder when it burned.

You are confusing momentum with energy. Both are conserved, but momentum is a vector and energy is a scalar. Momentum is mass times velocity, energy is mass times the square of velocity.

Edit. You are correct. They are two different things. However, even the momentum of a bullet isn't enough to do anything at low pistol velocities. It barely moves steel plates that weigh much less than a human body.

In the shooting in the OP, what happened to the body with the momentum of the bullet? Would an extra 90 grains that you can't even feel in your hand make a difference? No.

Here's a .45 ACP on a small hog. Granted, hogs don't know when to die like us humans do but in this case you can see that the energy or momentum didn't move the much lighter pig.

 

[Acer-m14]

wtf is the science term .. i'm tired ..... force on one side is the same back .. .. then add in muzzle brakes ,., ported barrels .. limbsaver recoil pads .. null ..
there is a lot more into it ..

adding some lead shot in the butt of my Moss 500 and a nice recoil pad .. i love it now .. without .. it was a fking mule kicker .. sat in the corner for 20 years .. now i get it out shooting skeet when i'm board with the O/U .. 24/25 with a pump in a few week day shoots .

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Like the time in 1986 when the perp who got shot with an expanding bullet that stopped 1 inch before the heart and killed numerous FBI agents afterwards? Tell me how energy worked in that case. That's what started this whole bullet testing in the first place and it was determined that energy isn't a factor but rather penetration and shot placement.

You still haven't read the FBI Ballistics Manual and the referenced sources that made up that manual haven't you?

Enough with the references to baseballs and fists. We are talking about bullets that only make holes the diameter of themselves. Plenty of people have been shot in non vital areas near vital areas with .45 ACP's and 10mm's and .357 Magnums. Guess what? They lived. They weren't knocked out or killed by the energy or stopping power or whatever you want to call it.

Read the manual please. And just so you know, a 9mm had more kinetic energy than a .45 ACP.

Um yeah. No one said that any of this works 100% of the time. And these ballistics manuals you keep bringing up. What exactly do they talk about? Just testimonies of what people saw and what the bullets did? We are talking about the science of energy, velocity, mass etc. Again no body is claiming that any bullets work 100% of the time with all factors taken into account. So the FBI shoot out. Weren't most of them using 357 mags? So I guess penetrations isn't everything either. And what does that pig video prove? When did this turn into people and pigs getting knocked over? We were talking about what happens once the bullets enter the target. BTW. If you notice he shoots it 8 times and the slide doesn't lock back and it has a flush fit mag. I think that's a 9mm 1911 lol. Either that or he did the fastest one handed reload mankind has ever witnessed.

 

[holdover]

"""Energy distribution to the target is a myth!!""

Clearly you are misunderstanding something in your reports. Steel and lead have significantly different effects when fired at the same target same speed same weight. One is soft and distributes energy , one is hard and retains energy .

A lead bullet has zero energy. Its inert, it just sits there .It has potential energy. The explosion of powder , transfers energy to the bullet , when the bullet meets resistance, it transfers that energy to the object. The size and speed of the bullet determines the amount of energy transferred.

If you don't mind linking the report for everybody , I would like to read it.

 

[Marine Cpl]

The report is linked below.

Full text of "fbi handgun wounding factors and effectiveness"

 

[holdover]

From FBI report:

Shot placement is an important, and often cited, consideration regarding the suitability of
weapons and ammunition. However, considerations of caliber are equally important and cannot be
ignored. For example, a bullet through the central nervous system with any caliber of ammunition is
likely to be immediately incapacitating.' Even a .22 rimfire penetrating the brain will cause immediate
incapacitation in most cases. Obviously, this does not mean the law enforcement agency should issue .22
rimfires and train for head shots as the primary target. The realities of shooting incidents prohibit such a
solution.

(I think we all agree with this one)

Few, if any, shooting incidents will present the officer with an opportunity to take a careful,
precisely aimed shot at the subject’s head. Rather, shootings are characterized by their sudden,
unexpected occurrence; by rapid and unpredictable movement of both officer and adversary; by limited
and partial target opportunities; by poor light and unforeseen obstacles; and by the life or death stress of sudden, close, personal violence.

(Ok I think we all agree with one too)

no law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun.

(Nor should civilians) Just a good ol reminder from the FBI.

Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing lethal blood
loss. To the extent the wound components cause or increase the effects of these two mechanisms, the
likelihood of incapacitation increases.

the crush mechanism, the result of penetration and permanent cavity, is the only
handgun wounding mechanism which damages tissue.


Goddard amply proves the fallacy of "knock-down power" by calculating the heights (and
resultant velocities) from which a one pound weight and a ten pound weight must be dropped to equal the
momentum of 9mm and .45ACP projectiles at muzzle velocities, respectively. The results are revealing.

In order to equal the impact of a 9mm bullet at its muzzle velocity, a one pound weight must be dropped
from a height of 5.96 feet, (6FEET!) achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps. To equal the impact of a .45ACP bullet, the
one pound weight needs a velocity of 27. 1 fps and must be dropped from a height of 1 1 .4 feet.(1,1feet!) A ten
pound weight equals the impact of a 9mm bullet when dropped from a height of 0.72 inches (velocity
attained is 1.96 fps), and equals the impact of a .45 when dropped from 1.37 inches (achieving a velocity
of 2.71 fps). 30 ( almost double the height!)

A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would
be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been
known for hundreds of years.

The definitions of knock down power and incapacitation are not equal or the same . Although the term may have been used interchangeably on here by mistake, the differences were thought to be clearly understood by everyone.

Permanent cavity can be increased by the use of expanding bullets, and/or larger diameter bullets, which have adequate penetration.

Bullet selection should be determined based on penetration first, and the unexpanded diameter of the bullet .

Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness.
It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss.


a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so.

ENERGY! It gives up a great deal of ENERGY .

The round which destroys 0.07% of the target will incapacitate more often
than the one which destroys 0.04%.

(And there you have it)

The differences between bullets may be small, but science can give us the means of identifying
that difference. The result is the edge all of law enforcement should be looking for.
Even if that edge is only 1%, it is not insignificant because
the guy trying to kill you could be in that 1%, and you won’t know it until it is too late.

Severity is a function of location, depth, and amount of tissue destroyed.

I have an issue with this statement:

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock"
of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration.

The bullet cannot leave the barrel without Kinetic energy, it cannot penetrate a target without Kinetic energy, and certainly cannot wound anything without Kinetic energy.

the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound
by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet.

Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs
from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs
from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

Full text of "fbi handgun wounding factors and effectiveness"