Handgun stopping power, lack of it. Police video

[gun_slinger_boy]

Read the FBI Ballistics Manual. They talk about this. The amount of energy impacted on a target is equal to the amount of recoil of the weapon fired. It's Newton's law. You can go by people who actually conduct scientific tests or you can ignore it and go by myths created by people of the past in gun shops and by manufacturers trying to sell ammo. I used to think the same until I researched it for myself. The FBI aren't the only ones that dispelled these myths.

Full text of "fbi handgun wounding factors and effectiveness"

I agree with Newtons laws but a pistols recoil isn't a good example of what's going on with energy transfer. A pistols recoil energy is slowed by springs, the breach face, slide mass/weight etc. And this is over an extremely short amount of time. That is, not enough time to get up to speed so to speak. A more fair comparison would be to have a pistol that had no means of catching the slide with a slide the same weight as the bullet. Also no springs or anything else to slow down the slide either (obviously). Fire the round and what would happen then? Much different right? Another way to look at it is if you put your hand up to the back of say a glock and fire what will happen? I mean put it right up flush against it. If you hold it tight enough it may even stop the action. Now you don't even have to put your hand right on the muzzle of the gun. Stand 10 feet away hold your hand up as hard as you can towards the muzzle and fire. What will the bullet do?

 

[Phazer]

Which will do more damage and why

556 traveling at 2800 fps or 50 BMG traveling at 2800 fps?

F = M x V

(so.......no kidding)

 

[Marine Cpl]

I agree with Newtons laws but a pistols recoil isn't a good example of what's going on with energy transfer. A pistols recoil energy is slowed by springs, the breach face, slide mass/weight etc. And this is over an extremely short amount of time. That is, not enough time to get up to speed so to speak. A more fair comparison would be to have a pistol that had no means of catching the slide with a slide the same weight as the bullet. Also no springs or anything else to slow down the slide either (obviously). Fire the round and what would happen then? Much different right? Another way to look at it is if you put your hand up to the back of say a glock and fire what will happen? I mean put it right up flush against it. If you hold it tight enough it may even stop the action. Now you don't even have to put your hand right on the muzzle of the gun. Stand 10 feet away hold your hand up as hard as you can towards the muzzle and fire. What will the bullet do?

I don't see your point regarding the springs. Of course the springs mitigate recoil by absorbing it. Use a revolver as an example if you want to nitpick an autoloader's springs. That isn't the argument.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

I don't see your point regarding the springs. Of course the springs mitigate recoil by absorbing it. Use a revolver as an example if you want to nitpick an autoloader's springs. That isn't the argument.

It seemed to me like you were saying what's going on in the shooters hand(s) is exactly whats going on where ever the target is hit but the energy involved doesn't make a difference.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It seemed to me like you were saying what's going on in the shooters hand(s) is exactly whats going on where ever the target is hit but the energy involved doesn't make a difference.

It's not me saying it. It's experts saying it. Did you read the FBI Ballistics Manual? Did you read the reports it referenced written by experts?

 

[holdover]

F = M x V

(so.......no kidding)

thank you

 

[holdover]

Read the FBI Ballistics Manual. They talk about this. The amount of energy impacted on a target is equal to the amount of recoil of the weapon fired. It's Newton's law. .

You were just telling me how much less recoil a 9mm has!!

Which has more recoil (energy)a 9mm or a 45? You just confirmed everything I was saying.

 

[holdover]

Muzzle energy is the kinetic energy of a bullet as it is expelled from the muzzle of a firearm. Without consideration of factors such as aerodynamics and gravity for the sake of comparison, muzzle energy is used as a rough indication of the destructive potential of a given firearm or cartridge. The heavier the bullet and especially the faster it moves, the higher its muzzle energy and the more damage it will do.

The general formula for the kinetic energy is
E k = 1 2 m v 2 {\displaystyle E_{k}={\begin{matrix}{\frac {1}{2}}\end{matrix}}mv^{2}}

where

v is the velocity of the bullet
m is the mass of the bullet.
Although both mass and velocity contribute to the muzzle energy, the muzzle energy is proportional to the mass while proportional to the square of the velocity. The velocity of the bullet is a more important determinant of muzzle energy. For a constant velocity, if the mass is doubled, the energy is doubled; however, for a constant mass, if the velocity is doubled, the muzzle energy increases four times.[1] In the SI system the above Ek will be in unit joule if the mass, m, is in kilogram, and the speed, v, is in metre per second.

In all honesty, Some of what you have said makes sense. but I still believe the 45 will cause more trauma due to energy transfer to the body .

 

[71velle]

They use 9mm

several articles state they use 45 may I ask you source?

 

[togmaster]

And risk missing the head and hitting someone else behind him. Its shoot until the threat stops, stomach and thoracic cavity.

Hips work too. And don't miss the head.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You were just telling me how much less recoil a 9mm has!!

Which has more recoil (energy)a 9mm or a 45? You just confirmed everything I was saying.

No. What I'm saying is that energy doesn't wound. There energy impacted on the target is the same as the recoil of the round.

Are you saying that when you shoot the .45 ACP you get knocked out?

 

[Marine Cpl]

In all honesty, Some of what you have said makes sense. but I still believe the 45 will cause more trauma due to energy transfer to the body .

And what trauma would that be sir? Trauma that knocks the target out?

I know it's hard to get past the myths you've known all your life to be true. It sucks. I know.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Well here are 2 contradicting vids. But I just focus on the gel blocks and how much they lift up and shift right. On the first video also look at the spaces in between what's holding them up as well.

 

[Marine Cpl]

several articles state they use 45 may I ask you source?

There are numerous people talking about it at various threads on the 1911 forums and on officer.com. ymmv.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Well here are 2 contradicting vids. But I just focus on the gel blocks and how much they lift up and shift right. On the first video also look at the spaces in between what's holding them up as well.

Lol. You still don't get it? What stops a threat? It isn't energy. A hit from a sledgehammer has more energy than a pistol round and even that won't knock you out if hit in non vitals.

 

[71velle]

LAPD special unit uses 45 ACP I wonder why?

While the main force of the LAPD uses the Beretta 92 pistol chambered in 9mm, the SIS has chosen to issue the .45 ACP cartridge for its detectives. While most police pistols are “carried a lot but fired a little,” that is not the case for the SIS because of the nature of their takedowns. They go with Winchester’s .45 ACP, 230-grain, jacketed-hollow-point Ranger T-Series ammo because they need maximum firepower and, more importantly, maximum stopping power, such as when they move in on heavily armed bank robbers. The possibility of injuries to civilians is increased the longer the engagement ensues. The terrible North Hollywood shootout had street cops and their 9mms unable to take out the up-armored bad guys. That shootout was ended by a few well-placed, 230-grain .45 bullets.

The primary sidearm for the SIS is the Glock 21. This is the gun that is fully stoked with 14 rounds (13 plus one in the chamber) and holstered on the front of the detective’s raid vest. The raid vest is usually locked in the trunk of the unmarked car along with a Benelli M4 12-gauge shotgun and either a Colt LE6920 or an HK416 5.56mm NATO rifle. If the stakeout goes sideways and the detective can’t get to his heavy armament, he has to engage the bad guys with whatever weapon is on his body, so it’s standard operating procedure in the SIS to carry more than one concealed handgun.

Agency Spotlight: LAPD's Elite Stakeout Squad

 

[Marine Cpl]

LAPD special unit uses 45 ACP I wonder why?

While the main force of the LAPD uses the Beretta 92 pistol chambered in 9mm, the SIS has chosen to issue the .45 ACP cartridge for its detectives. While most police pistols are “carried a lot but fired a little,” that is not the case for the SIS because of the nature of their takedowns. They go with Winchester’s .45 ACP, 230-grain, jacketed-hollow-point Ranger T-Series ammo because they need maximum firepower and, more importantly, maximum stopping power, such as when they move in on heavily armed bank robbers. The possibility of injuries to civilians is increased the longer the engagement ensues. The terrible North Hollywood shootout had street cops and their 9mms unable to take out the up-armored bad guys. That shootout was ended by a few well-placed, 230-grain .45 bullets.

The primary sidearm for the SIS is the Glock 21. This is the gun that is fully stoked with 14 rounds (13 plus one in the chamber) and holstered on the front of the detective’s raid vest. The raid vest is usually locked in the trunk of the unmarked car along with a Benelli M4 12-gauge shotgun and either a Colt LE6920 or an HK416 5.56mm NATO rifle. If the stakeout goes sideways and the detective can’t get to his heavy armament, he has to engage the bad guys with whatever weapon is on his body, so it’s standard operating procedure in the SIS to carry more than one concealed handgun.

Agency Spotlight: LAPD's Elite Stakeout Squad

You wonder why? Perhaps because the leader just likes it? So what about all the other SWAT units that field the 9mm or .40? Wonder why they field those? It's obvious you are searching hard on the internet for the few units that still use them.

You still haven't read the ballistics manual and the sources attached to it haven't you?

 

[holdover]

And what trauma would that be sir? Trauma that knocks the target out?

I know it's hard to get past the myths you've known all your life to be true. It sucks. I know.

Actually you don't know. Myths ? Its called science Will. A myth is something made up to try to sell you something you don't need. Trauma , as in shock to the human nervous system . which has been known to stop the heart with less than lethal wounds . Incapacitation , not being able to respond due to being unconscious or lacking the ability due to severe damage. Its not just bleeding out , there's a whole hell of lot more to it. the more energy delivered , the more damage is done. the more damage that is done , the faster the incapacitation. This aint rocket science , I don't understand what your not getting . being hit with a .177 pellet gun at 1200 fps is going to have a vastly different effect than being hit with a 9mm at 1000 fps . due to the energy ( weight) delivered .

A 17 HMR can kill you if it hits your vitals too, but you don't see the military using it because of the number of rounds that can be carried and the cost . Speed is only one part of the equation. you seem fixated on that alone.You need to stop watching you tube channels.

 

[holdover]

Lol. You still don't get it? What stops a threat? It isn't energy. A hit from a sledgehammer has more energy than a pistol round and even that won't knock you out if hit in non vitals.

Wow, its not energy? what is it then ?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Actually you don't know. Myths ? Its called science Will. A myth is something made up to try to sell you something you don't need. Trauma , as in shock to the human nervous system . which has been known to stop the heart with less than lethal wounds . Incapacitation , not being able to respond due to being unconscious or lacking the ability due to severe damage. Its not just bleeding out , there's a whole hell of lot more to it. the more energy delivered , the more damage is done. the more damage that is done , the faster the incapacitation. This aint rocket science , I don't understand what your not getting . being hit with a .177 pellet gun at 1200 fps is going to have a vastly different effect than being hit with a 9mm at 1000 fps . to the energy ( weight) delivered .

A 17 HMR can kill you if it hits your vitals too, but you don't see the military using it because of the number of rounds that can be carried and the cost . Speed is only one part of the equation. you seem fixated on that alone.You need to stop watching you tube channels.

When did I say anything about 17 HMR and a .177 pellet?

The only thing I'm saying is that energy FOR PISTOL ROUNDS not RIFLE ROUNDS don't wound or stop a threat. That's been confirmed already by experts. I guess you refuse to read the FBI Ballistics Manual and the references sources from the experts on the field.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Wow, its not energy? what is it then ?

The actual hole it makes in the tissue and the vital it actually hits. Please read the manual.

 

[holdover]

The actual hole it makes in the tissue and the vital it actually hits. Please read the manual.

That's your problem right there. that information is not complete

 

[holdover]

When did I say anything about 17 HMR and a .177 pellet?


The only thing I'm saying is that energy FOR PISTOL ROUNDS not RIFLE ROUNDS don't wound or stop a threat. That's been confirmed already by experts. I guess you refuse to read the FBI Ballistics Manual and the references sources from the experts on the field.

You didn't I said .I was attempting to demonstrate, the in the extreme, the difference of weight, which was obviously lost on you.

I was trained by experts in the field first hand.

Pistol rounds don't wound or stop a threat? Did you read that in your manual ?

 

[Marine Cpl]

You didn't I said .

I was trained by experts in the field first hand.

Pistol rounds don't wound or stop a threat? Did you read that in your manual ?

I'm not tracking what you are trying to say. Are you joking around with me? Playing word games?

When did i say that pistol rounds don't wound? Read back. Energy from pistol rounds don't wound or stop a threat. That's what I said. It's the actual tissue pushed aside by the bullet itself that wounds and a hit to vitals that immediately stops.

 

[Marine Cpl]

That's your problem right there. that information is not complete

How so?

 

[holdover]

First off it doesn't have to hit a vital to be incapacitating. Second,it doesn't take into account circulatory shock, cardiogenic shock, or Hypovolemic shock. The more massive the damage, the more immediate the shock . Shock can stop your heart just as fast as a bullet. Being shot in the stomach or even the legs for that matter,with a 50bmg can stop your heart almost instantly . stepping on a land mine and loseing you legs can stop your heart . The PRINCIPLE is the larger the trauma , the more immediate the stopping power. when you apply this principle to pistol rounds , The larger rounds causing more tissue damage , can incapitate quicker due to the size of the wound/ wound channel, proximity to vitals, what you were saying before does makes sense in the sense that because of relative small size of both pistol 9mm and 45 , that the difference is not major. That may have some merit .

 

[holdover]

I'm not tracking what you are trying to say. Are you joking around with me? Playing word games?

When did i say that pistol rounds don't wound? Read back. Energy from pistol rounds don't wound or stop a threat. That's what I said. It's the actual tissue pushed aside by the bullet itself that wounds and a hit to vitals that immediately stops.

No I misread that.

 

[Marine Cpl]

First off it doesn't have to hit a vital to be incapacitating. Second,it doesn't take into account circulatory shock, cardiogenic shock, or Hypovolemic shock. The more massive the damage, the more immediate the shock . Shock can stop your heart just as fast as a bullet. Being shot in the stomach or even the legs for that matter,with a 50bmg can stop your heart almost instantly . stepping on a land mine and loseing you legs can stop your heart . The PRINCIPLE is the larger the trauma , the more immediate the stopping power. when you apply this principle to pistol rounds , The larger rounds causing more tissue damage , can incapitate quicker due to the size of the wound/ wound channel, proximity to vitals, what you were saying before does makes sense in the sense that because of relative small size of both pistol 9mm and 45 , that the difference is not major. That may have some merit .

Landmines and .50 BMG's. Sure, a Samarai sword chopping off a limb will do the trick too but we are talking about pistols that shoot small projectiles way below the point where the temporal stretch cavity becomes so large that it goes past the point of elasticity in a human body.

 

[Bullcreek_Strategic]

several articles state they use 45 may I ask you source?

I have worked hand in hand with alot FBI, DHS and other type teams. Very rarely you come across an agent with anything other than 9mm. Im not saying all of them use 9 but a good majority do.

 

[GOPerfect]

This is almost funny now...