Handgun stopping power, lack of it. Police video

[Marine Cpl]

Once you study reports from actual trauma surgeons like DR. Fackler who's worked extensively with the FBI and others in the field, you'll learn that most calibers that are close to one another in size make no difference when it comes to stopping a threat. Many times the caliber used is not able to be determined if the bullet isn't recovered.

The only thing that stops a threat is penetration to vitals. Your heart, brain, spinal column, ect... isn't going to care if the bullet is .355 in diameter or .450 in diameter. It also isn't going to care if it expanded to .586 or .689.

It either hits the vital or it doesn't. If it misses a vital, you aren't going to bleed more to make a difference in causing an immediate stop of a threat. The human body doesn't care if the hole is .355 or .689. It'll bleed at the same rate and the body still has the ability to fight for many minutes and hours in some cases.

With handgun bullets it's vitals for immediate stops or non vitals and waiting for the body to bleed out if not treated.

 

[71velle]

I don't understand your question. Who said the .45 Acp can penetrate anything? I didn't. I say the opposite when it comes to hard barriers that require speed and smaller frontal meplats.

should have been cant not can.

 

[71velle]

Once you study reports from actual trauma surgeons like DR. Fackler who's worked extensively with the FBI and others in the field, you'll learn that most calibers that are close to one another in size make no difference when it comes to stopping a threat. Many times the caliber used is not able to be determined if the bullet isn't recovered.

The only thing that stops a threat is penetration to vitals. Your heart, brain, spinal column, ect... isn't going to care if the bullet is .355 in diameter or .450 in diameter. It also isn't going to care if it expanded to .586 or .689.

It either hits the vital or it doesn't. If it misses a vital, you aren't going to bleed more to make a difference in causing an immediate stop of a threat. The human body doesn't care if the hole is .355 or .689. It'll bleed at the same rate and the body still has the ability to fight for many minutes and hours in some cases.

With handgun bullets it's vitals for immediate stops or non vitals and waiting for the body to bleed out if not treated.

Studying someone hours after they have been shot doesnt determine how they were affected right after being hit.

Interesting article about police departments and caliber choices. The only things said abut 9mm is its "effective enough" ,"cheaper", "easier to manage recoil"
no department has moved away from 45 because of performance including lack of penetration.

But 3 departments did move to 45 because the smaller calibers were not getting the job done.

"The New York State Police had shootings in which it felt its 9mm hollow points did not take effect quickly enough. The agency switched to Glocks in .45 caliber and issues them today. In Case Seven, an incident in which a cop-shooter soaked up a large number of .40-caliber bullets before he went down led the Pennsylvania State Police to take a step up the caliber scale, first with Glock 37s in .45 GAP and then to Glock 21s in .45 ACP. In 2008, complaints by street officers that their 9mms weren’t stopping the bad guys fast enough led to Case Eight, in which the Philadelphia Police Department authorized its officers to acquire .40- or .45-caliber Glocks to carry at work."

link to full article Stopping Power: Finding the Right Caliber for Different Law Enforcement Agencies

As I outline before my opinions of the caliber trade-offs because I dont believe in the "magic bullet" but in reality I can not find any information of any agency that switched away from 45 because they think 9mm is better.

 

[GOPerfect]

Some are adamant in their choices of ammunition to be carried. The article cited above is a good example. Not all departments are going to be the same. Whether the vehicles they choose or the types of guns they issue or allow their officers to carry.


I have a friend who was hired by the Alaskan State Police a few years back. He has two different duty guns. For everyday work, he carries the Glock 22. When he is on assignment out of the cities and towns, he carries the Glock 20, 10mm. Better gun to use if needed if he has an encounter with certain four legged creatures.

NY State troopers carry The Glock 37 because it has the .45 caliber ballistics but in the smaller Glock 17 frame.

The LAPD allows its' officers to chose between the 9mm, 40 or the 45ACP. The majority of Patrol officers carry the 9or 40. Nearly all of the officers assigned to SWAT or Gang units carry the Glock 21, 30 or the 36. Many also carry the Kimber, chambered in 45ACP. Gotta wonder why the choice.

 

[GOPerfect]

I would like to know, a serious numbers crunch, how many departments across the Country use 9mm, 40, 45ACP and so on.

Seems like all tests are done to standard these days, but more and more departments are changing their guns around.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Studying someone hours after they have been shot doesnt determine how they were affected right after being hit.

Interesting article about police departments and caliber choices. The only things said abut 9mm is its "effective enough" ,"cheaper", "easier to manage recoil"
no department has moved away from 45 because of performance including lack of penetration.

But 3 departments did move to 45 because the smaller calibers were not getting the job done.

"The New York State Police had shootings in which it felt its 9mm hollow points did not take effect quickly enough. The agency switched to Glocks in .45 caliber and issues them today. In Case Seven, an incident in which a cop-shooter soaked up a large number of .40-caliber bullets before he went down led the Pennsylvania State Police to take a step up the caliber scale, first with Glock 37s in .45 GAP and then to Glock 21s in .45 ACP. In 2008, complaints by street officers that their 9mms weren’t stopping the bad guys fast enough led to Case Eight, in which the Philadelphia Police Department authorized its officers to acquire .40- or .45-caliber Glocks to carry at work."

link to full article Stopping Power: Finding the Right Caliber for Different Law Enforcement Agencies

As I outline before my opinions of the caliber trade-offs because I dont believe in the "magic bullet" but in reality I can not find any information of any agency that switched away from 45 because they think 9mm is better.

What is it that you think other calibers do? Something magical? All they do is push aside tissue to the same diameter of themselves. That's either a little smaller if non expanding or a little bigger if expanding. The non expanding rounds penetrate deeper and the expanding rounds penetrate much shallower. There isn't anything special that one caliber does over another other than various penetration depths depending on the type of barrier it encounters or the soft tissue it encounters.

As far as what one police department does over another in regards to caliber selection is entirely up to what a chief read in a magazine or on an online forum or what some company offered him.

It's complete bullocks to think that a 9mm didn't work for one department but did for another.

I suggest you read into how bullets work. Read reports from experts in the industry. Read the FBI Ballistics Manual that started this whole caliber thing and watch "backyard videos" that some like to clown to actually see what calibers penetrate what and what some fail to penetrate.

Bears have been taken with 9mm but yet some departments say it doesn't work for them against this skinned humans.

Let's be real here. Some of those departments have 5 shootings if that a year. You certainly can't call them experts. The 9mm is the most adopted caliber in the world and in this country with thousands upon thousands of real world experiences but it doesn't work for some hillbilly department or some state police agency who chose a certain caliber because they got free guns to go along with it?

Enough with the dispelled myths already.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I would like to know, a serious numbers crunch, how many departments across the Country use 9mm, 40, 45ACP and so on.

Seems like all tests are done to standard these days, but more and more departments are changing their guns around.

Department selection of ammo or guns are entirely dependant on what a chief or superintendent or town board selects. There is no science behind it unless you go by FBI tests that have changed dependant on ammo technology.

Some departments are exceptions and test their own ammo but most go by other factors.

 

[Bullcreek_Strategic]

What’s your wife carry when you take her 9mm?

Hahaha jokes, my chuck taylors have more real world experience than you and your family.........hence me saying 9mm is just fine ive seen what they all do, science is crazy.

And if you must know my wife has an m&p 40....... with a 9mm barrel on the side.

 

[71velle]

What is it that you think other calibers do? Something magical? All they do is push aside tissue to the same diameter of themselves. That's either a little smaller if non expanding or a little bigger if expanding. The non expanding rounds penetrate deeper and the expanding rounds penetrate much shallower. There isn't anything special that one caliber does over another other than various penetration depths depending on the type of barrier it encounters or the soft tissue it encounters.

As far as what one police department does over another in regards to caliber selection is entirely up to what a chief read in a magazine or on an online forum or what some company offered him.

It's complete bullocks to think that a 9mm didn't work for one department but did for another.

I suggest you read into how bullets work. Read reports from experts in the industry. Read the FBI Ballistics Manual that started this whole caliber thing and watch "backyard videos" that some like to clown to actually see what calibers penetrate what and what some fail to penetrate.

Bears have been taken with 9mm but yet some departments say it doesn't work for them against this skinned humans.

Let's be real here. Some of those departments have 5 shootings if that a year. You certainly can't call them experts. The 9mm is the most adopted caliber in the world and in this country with thousands upon thousands of real world experiences but it doesn't work for some hillbilly department or some state police agency who chose a certain caliber because they got free guns to go along with it?

Enough with the dispelled myths already.

You can not provide any instance where any agency has determined that 45 is not effective enough so they went to 9mm, for a reason. You can continue to talk about manuals, back yard videos and discredit the decisions of major departments. But, at the end of the day when those in the streets doing the dirty work continue to chose 45 you still think you know better.

So, if you were to defend yourself agains a bear you would use 9mm?
22 caliber kills more people every year than any other caliber, maybe the police should carry 22s.....

 

[ECU Pirates]

Hahaha jokes, my chuck taylors have more real world experience than you and your family.........hence me saying 9mm is just fine ive seen what they all do, science is crazy.

And if you must know my wife has an m&p 40....... with a 9mm barrel on the side.

My real world experience must be from video games. The 9mm's don't do much in them. I don't have a cool picture with a tac beard after all...
Anyone with multiple first hand experiences with bullet performance should be well versed in rifle performance. We all know pistols are rarely used in hot spots. If you will excuse me I have to go play call of duty now....

 

[Bullcreek_Strategic]

My real world experience must be from video games. The 9mm's don't do much in them. I don't have a cool picture with a tac beard after all...
Anyone with multiple first hand experiences with bullet performance should be well versed in rifle performance. We all know pistols are rarely used in hot spots. If you will excuse me I have to go play call of duty now....

Hahaha, no need to get upset. I mean we are all poking fun right and that was a hipster beard not a tac beard and seriously my wife has a .40. Also for your information pistols are actually your main firearm as a contractor, Your rifle stays in the vehicle.

In all seriousness what is your gamertag I have a PS3.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Hahaha, no need to get upset. I mean we are all poking fun right and that was a hipster beard not a tac beard and seriously my wife has a .40. Also for your information pistols are actually your main firearm as a contractor, Your rifle stays in the vehicle.

In all seriousness what is your gamertag I have a PS3.

Oh I'm not upset. The last time I was offended was in 1998. Now that you called it a hipster beard I'm upset though (for you). Your wife should be carrying a 9mm though. Just ask Will. I was joking about the video games. I'm a grown ass man in my 30's. No games here sir.

 

[Bullcreek_Strategic]

Oh I'm not upset. The last time I was offended was in 1998. Now that you called it a hipster beard I'm upset though (for you). Your wife should be carrying a 9mm though. Just ask Will. I was joking about the video games. I'm a grown ass man in my 30's. No games here sir.

I like your style @ECU Pirates and a beard is a beard unless your are wearing skinny jeans then it means nothing.

 

[ECU Pirates]

I like your style @ECU Pirates and a beard is a beard unless your are wearing skinny jeans then it means nothing.

I might show up at a class. I will be the guy with the beard and skinny jeans. Maybe if you ever got to the southern tier that is.

 

[Bullcreek_Strategic]

I might show up at a class. I will be the guy with the beard and skinny jeans. Maybe if you ever got to the southern tier that is.

We travel, since Stier is close, get a group of 7people together your spot would be free since you host the class. Shoot me a DM if you want.

 

[ECU Pirates]

We travel, since Stier is close, get a group of 7people together your spot would be free since you host the class. Shoot me a DM if you want.

I have about 3 friends. Any people around Broome county want to join?

 

[GOPerfect]

I have about 3 friends. Any people around Broome county want to join?

With you? Absolutely not. I know your kind very well, I want nothing to do with the likes of you and your friends.

 

[ECU Pirates]

With you? Absolutely not. I know your kind very well, I want nothing to do with the likes of you and your friends.

We don't hang out with dudes that have white AR's. You are correct and were not invited.

 

[GOPerfect]

We don't hang out with dudes that have white AR's. You are correct and were not invited.

You know, if I actually cared, I might start feeling bad with the insults.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You can not provide any instance where any agency has determined that 45 is not effective enough so they went to 9mm, for a reason. You can continue to talk about manuals, back yard videos and discredit the decisions of major departments. But, at the end of the day when those in the streets doing the dirty work continue to chose 45 you still think you know better.

So, if you were to defend yourself agains a bear you would use 9mm?
22 caliber kills more people every year than any other caliber, maybe the police should carry 22s.....

What are you talking about? The majority of departments field the 9mm followed by the .40 S&W. Very few departments field the .45 ACP. The FBI who actually test ammo just recently switched from the .40 to the 9mm. Why would they do that?

As far as bear go, a bigger bore is preferable. But in instances where a 9mm was used, (there were 3 recorded instances where it was used that I can find) it did the job. Does that mean a 9mm is better for bear protection? No. But it did the job and will do the job with the right non expanding ammo.

Do you really not know that low velocity bullets that go below or around 850 fps with 5 inch barrels or below or around 750 fps or less with 3 inch barrels have a hard time defeating hard barriers? Speed penetrates hard barriers better and weight penetrates soft tissue better. That's how bullets work.

The .45 ACP does fine against bodies and fine against most thin hard barriers. (Car doors, glass, Ect.) But it'll not do well on thicker barriers that require more velocity to defeat said barrier. (Semi truck doors, Ect.)

No need to get defensive. It's adequate for most purposes but not all. As with any caliber, there are limitations. A .357 Sig or Magnum will penetrate even harder, thicker barriers than a 9mm would due to the extra 300 to 500 fps as would a +P+ 9mm compared to a standard pressure 9mm but it's all a tradeoff game. One has to choose based on those tradeoffs. (Price, availability, capacity, recoil, ect.)

 

[GOPerfect]

Kind of makes one wonder why there are so many choices for handgun ammo!

 

[Marine Cpl]

Kind of makes one wonder why there are so many choices for handgun ammo!

 

[holdover]

I have no problem with this shooting. He already showed he was Neville today and ran at a cop with his gun out. Sure looked to me like he was going for the cops gun. Good shoot 100%.

I feel bad for the cop that lost the fist fight to a guy that was shot. Also the cop next to him did nothing to help.

Lost? what video were you watching? The cop had him in a Muy Thai clinch .He slipped and fell ,but so did superman . I didn't see any winners or losers before he was gang raped. That's the way I saw it anyways. As far as the video, He grabbed for the officers weapon . Case closed.

The officer did not follow his training and stop the threat . He endangered the life of fellow officers . If the guy had a knife or gun on him , it could have been a really bad outcome. Im not sure I would feel comfortable working along side him . Maybe he had a really good reason, I don't know. But if I was working with him,would want to find out.

Shot placement of course, is the key. but given the option between a small caliber and large caliber , I go with the larger caliber every time.

I really hate the phrase ,""He was on something"" Every time police could not put a man down. Some guys are just fucking tough. Real tough. Scary, I don't give a fuck about my life or yours tough.

 

[holdover]

Your essentially condoning the use of deadly force for what amounts to nothing but a fist fight. ...

No, no sir, Watch the video again, he did not attempt to strike the officer. He attempted to grab his weapon. As far as the courts are going to see it , the officer legitimately defended himself, in what was a brief life or death struggle over the weapon.

 

[holdover]

If we carry this, little bullet is just as good as a big bullet theroy to another level you can see that its bogus.
a 9 mm vs a .50 BMG should demonstrate The point better. the principles remain constant . The larger round will contain more energy, create far larger ballistic channels , cause more bleeding and shock, and do more damage than a smaller round at similar velocity's.

Take it another step further , a 20MM non exploding round vs the .22 30 grain to the same target area .

Try to convince me that the weight makes no difference in damage

 

[Marine Cpl]

If we carry this, little bullet is just as good as a big bullet theroy to another level you can see that its bogus.
a 9 mm vs a .50 BMG should demonstrate The point better. the principles remain constant . The larger round will contain more energy, create far larger ballistic channels , cause more bleeding and shock, and do more damage than a smaller round at similar velocity's.

Take it another step further , a 20MM non exploding round vs the .22 30 grain to the same target area .

Try to convince me that the weight makes no difference in damage

Incorrect. Energy doesn't stop an attack with pistol rounds. Penetration to vitals do. Whether the hole is .547 after expanding or .689 after expanding, the body bleeds at the same rate and has many minutes to bleed out or sometimes hours.

Guys have been shot in femoral arteries with commie rifle rounds and still didn't bleed out immediately. Those wounds are much worse than what any pistol round can do.

As far as a 20mm round going at over 2000 fps that's entirely different. When a bullet goes over 2000 fps, the temporal stretch cavity stretches past the point of elasticity and becomes permanent. Pistol rounds are too slow to do that. That's why you'll see a .223 round which is a . 22 caliber leave a hole bigger than a .45 ACP.

 

[holdover]

Guys have been shot in femoral arteries with commie rifle rounds and still didn't bleed out immediately. Those wounds are much worse than what any pistol round can do.IQUOTE]

Because?

 

[Marine Cpl]

You after messing up the quotes again.

Because? Because the human body doesn't bleed out in seconds. It would have to be instantaneous for an immediate stop. If it doesn't with a femoral artery hit than it isn't going to any faster with a bullet that expanded 1mm larger than a 9mm in regular tissue.

 

[holdover]

As far as a 20mm round going at over 2000 fps that's entirely different. When a bullet goes over 2000 fps, the temporal stretch cavity stretches past the point of elasticity and becomes permanent. Pistol rounds are too slow to do that. That's why you'll see a .223 round which is a . 22 caliber leave a hole bigger than a .45 ACP.

So a .22 will do the same damage as a 20MM if it was going 2000+ FPS?

Your exactly correct about the cavity stretch. However, a 308 -06 will cause far more permanent cavity stretch, You can hit a man six inches from his heart and tear it apart with a large caliber weapon . A smaller round can sometimes zip right through without causing a large enough cavity to be lethal .

The guy that escaped from prison last year in NY was hit once or twice center mass and survived for one instance. I don't ever recall hearing about the guy who took an 06 round center mass and survived.

 

[holdover]

You after messing up the quotes again.

Because? Because the human body doesn't bleed out in seconds. It would have to be instantaneous for an immediate stop. If it doesn't with a femoral artery hit than it isn't going to any faster with a bullet that expanded 1mm larger than a 9mm in regular tissue.

Incapacitation . That's what were looking for , you don't have to bleed out to be Incapacitated. A shotgun slug to your upper shoulder, may send you into immediate shock .