holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Which will do more damage and why
556 traveling at 2800 fps or 50 BMG traveling at 2800 fps?
556 traveling at 2800 fps or 50 BMG traveling at 2800 fps?
Handgun stopping power, lack of it. Police video
- Thread starter Celt
- Start date
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
Thought we were talking ballistics of something you could carry concealed or at least on the hip.
Fwiw.
Backing out. Appreciate the perspectives here.
Fwiw.
Backing out. Appreciate the perspectives here.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Just trying to demonstrate the principles on a larger scale where its more defined.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Of course not in regards to the .22. Why would it. I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying.
Really. So no one survived rifle wounds in any of the wars that were chest shots. Is that what you're saying?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
OMG.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
No, there are obvious variables, which we don't have access to like ricochets , deflections , range, ect
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
you didn't know that?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Holdover a .22 bullet going at 3000 fps will leave a bigger hole than a .308 going at 1000 fps.
Now if they both go above 2000 fps at the same speed, the bigger bullet leaves the bigger hole.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Physics Will, a larger object traveling at the same speed as a smaller one will carry more energy and do more damage . Anybody telling you different is selling you something.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I don't think you are tracking. When did i say otherwise?
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Didn't you imply that a 9mm is just as deadly as a 45?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Yes. Because a millimeter or two larger isn't going to make a difference in wounding for a slow pistol round to make a difference.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Right.But its not the circumference of bullet its the weight . A .50 BMG only has slightly larger circumference than a .45. even if you matched the speed , It wont do nearly as much damage .
weight x speed = energy
110 grain 9mm vs 230 grain .45 same speed
weight x speed = energy
110 grain 9mm vs 230 grain .45 same speed
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
What is it that you are saying? Be specific. How does a .45 ACP going at 750 fps to 900 fps stop someone faster or better than a 9mm going at 1100 fps to 1350 fps?
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Speed is part of the energy equation. No doubt .
But look at the 1100 fps of the 9, vs 900 fps of the 45 at twice the weight. 110 grain vs 230
The velocities are close , but the weight is off the charts . The heavier round in this case will carry far more energy at twice the weight . Im going to hazard a guess that it will be nearly twice as much energy . And energy in our instance = damage. Weight and speed = energy
But look at the 1100 fps of the 9, vs 900 fps of the 45 at twice the weight. 110 grain vs 230
The velocities are close , but the weight is off the charts . The heavier round in this case will carry far more energy at twice the weight . Im going to hazard a guess that it will be nearly twice as much energy . And energy in our instance = damage. Weight and speed = energy
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The elite FBI units chose 45 ACP, I wonder why???
Choice of the FBI HRT: Springfield Armory Professional Model | S.W.A.T. Magazine
When it comes to the regular troops in the FBI getting smaller caliber handguns its due to poor marksmanship skills.
From June of 2016
"Currently, the FBI issues Glock 22 and Glock 23 pistols to the majority of its agents. Agents who fail to qualify with the 40-caliber pistols receive 9mm Glock 17 or 19 pistols instead. With this new announcement, it’s likely that the FBI is going to adopt the same or similar 9mm Glock pistols agency-wide."
and
"The FBI determined that one of the most important elements of winning a gunfight is getting multiple rounds on target after studying shootings across the country. Because 9mm pistols hold more ammunition than .40-caliber handguns, agents stand a better chance of landing a stopping shot before needing to stop and reload. In the FBI’s investigation, they found that shooters miss between 70 and 80 percent of shots taken in self-defense. That alone makes a compelling argument to switch to 9mm, since most 9mm pistols hold between 2 to 4 more rounds of ammunition per magazine."
Choice of the FBI HRT: Springfield Armory Professional Model | S.W.A.T. Magazine
When it comes to the regular troops in the FBI getting smaller caliber handguns its due to poor marksmanship skills.
From June of 2016
"Currently, the FBI issues Glock 22 and Glock 23 pistols to the majority of its agents. Agents who fail to qualify with the 40-caliber pistols receive 9mm Glock 17 or 19 pistols instead. With this new announcement, it’s likely that the FBI is going to adopt the same or similar 9mm Glock pistols agency-wide."
and
"The FBI determined that one of the most important elements of winning a gunfight is getting multiple rounds on target after studying shootings across the country. Because 9mm pistols hold more ammunition than .40-caliber handguns, agents stand a better chance of landing a stopping shot before needing to stop and reload. In the FBI’s investigation, they found that shooters miss between 70 and 80 percent of shots taken in self-defense. That alone makes a compelling argument to switch to 9mm, since most 9mm pistols hold between 2 to 4 more rounds of ammunition per magazine."
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Using that logic they should switch to a .22. more rounds, less recoil, more accurate.
shot placement shot placement shot placement.
The FBI also forgot to add firing under stress when under fire, or at an evasive moving target.
Shot placement is the goal. The reality is bullets flying by your head can effect your aim . fleeting targets behind cover can make you waste shots or miss.
shot placement shot placement shot placement.
The FBI also forgot to add firing under stress when under fire, or at an evasive moving target.
Shot placement is the goal. The reality is bullets flying by your head can effect your aim . fleeting targets behind cover can make you waste shots or miss.
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
And what is that energy of the bigger .45 ACP doing to the body?
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That article is old news. From 2016. They have since changed to 9mm. Yours points on why they've changed proves the inadequacies.
Ok so this has gone pretty far and both of you guys are correct in your own ways. But think about the round itself and how its designed. thats where the stopping power is today and the science behind it. How the round mushrooms or expands once it hits a harder surface. Go overseas and look at whats on every persons hip...9mm filled with Federal HSPs. Theres a reason for this, like i said i agree with both of you but the science that goes into making the actual bullet today is what is doing the damage not necessarily the weight or speed. Although they all play a factor.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
I've said this before and I'll say it again and then back out and lurk again-
Is it better for me to miss you six times with a .44, or hit you once with a 9mm?
Is it better for me to miss you six times with a .44, or hit you once with a 9mm?
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
As far as the weight of a projectile (any projectile) is concerned and the energy transfer. Yes, there IS energy transfer! A body in motion wants to stay in motion. If the energy used to move this body (projectile in this case) is suddenly stopped the energy has to go somewhere. Some people will say pistol rounds have no energy transfer. That's just plain wrong. Others will say it's insignificant when traveling at pistol speeds. That's debatable.
Ok now that that's out of the way. Let's slow this down a bit to make it easier to visualize rather than objects going faster than the eye can see. A tennis ball and hardball have about the same weight ratio to each other as 9mm and 45ACP (look it up if you don't believe it). Now imagine an MLB pitcher throwing a 50mph pitch at someone with the hardball (45ACP at 900fps) and a 60mph pitch with the tennis ball (9mm at 1100fps). Does the weight of the hardball play any role on the person being hit even though it's going 20% slower than the tennis ball?
Ok now that that's out of the way. Let's slow this down a bit to make it easier to visualize rather than objects going faster than the eye can see. A tennis ball and hardball have about the same weight ratio to each other as 9mm and 45ACP (look it up if you don't believe it). Now imagine an MLB pitcher throwing a 50mph pitch at someone with the hardball (45ACP at 900fps) and a 60mph pitch with the tennis ball (9mm at 1100fps). Does the weight of the hardball play any role on the person being hit even though it's going 20% slower than the tennis ball?
Yes it sure does.... They changed due to inadequate shooting skills NOT ballistic performance. While the highly trained unites are using 45 ACP...
Petty sad when those who are paid to protect us would be lucky to get 6 hits with 20 rounds...
Even worse when you look at the FBI pistol qualification course.
Shoot Like the Pros: The New FBI Qualification Course of Fire - The Truth About Guns
Here is a video of a guy qualifying with an original LCP with the crap trigger and no sights. Cant imaging not being able to qualify with a glock 22 or 23.
Highly trained units are actually using 9mm Federal Hydrashocks. I can account for this back to 2007, before that i have no clue.
According to this article the HRT and other FBI special units use 45. Do you work for the FBI?
Choice of the FBI HRT: Springfield Armory Professional Model | S.W.A.T. Magazine
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That's one factor but not the only one. The truth is that no matter how good or bad you are, you will always be more accurate with a caliber that recoils less. That's basic physics.
Other factors come into play in the FBI's decision to go back to 9mm. Advances in bullet construction and propellant that now allow the 9mm to penetrate and expand to the same level as a larger factor is one factor.
Another factor is capacity and actual size of the weapon. Off duty agents most be able to conceal if off duty and in plain clothes. The 9mm allows for this without sacrificing capacity.
And the last factor is barrier penetration. Whether you like it or not, it's fact that the 9mm can penetrate hard barriers that the .45 will fail to penetrate due to the extra 300 to 500 fps greater.
Recoil isn't the only factor like you are alluding to and even the HRT units have now transitioned to Glock 9mm's.
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Read the FBI Ballistics Manual. They talk about this. The amount of energy impacted on a target is equal to the amount of recoil of the weapon fired. It's Newton's law. You can go by people who actually conduct scientific tests or you can ignore it and go by myths created by people of the past in gun shops and by manufacturers trying to sell ammo. I used to think the same until I researched it for myself. The FBI aren't the only ones that dispelled these myths.
Full text of "fbi handgun wounding factors and effectiveness"
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They use 9mm