Handgun stopping power, lack of it. Police video

Marine Cpl

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holdover said:
From FBI report:

Shot placement is an important, and often cited, consideration regarding the suitability of
weapons and ammunition. However, considerations of caliber are equally important and cannot be
ignored. For example, a bullet through the central nervous system with any caliber of ammunition is
likely to be immediately incapacitating.' Even a .22 rimfire penetrating the brain will cause immediate
incapacitation in most cases. Obviously, this does not mean the law enforcement agency should issue .22
rimfires and train for head shots as the primary target. The realities of shooting incidents prohibit such a
solution.

(I think we all agree with this one)

Few, if any, shooting incidents will present the officer with an opportunity to take a careful,
precisely aimed shot at the subject’s head. Rather, shootings are characterized by their sudden,
unexpected occurrence; by rapid and unpredictable movement of both officer and adversary; by limited
and partial target opportunities; by poor light and unforeseen obstacles; and by the life or death stress of sudden, close, personal violence.

(Ok I think we all agree with one too)

no law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun.

(Nor should civilians) Just a good ol reminder from the FBI.

Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing lethal blood
loss. To the extent the wound components cause or increase the effects of these two mechanisms, the
likelihood of incapacitation increases.

the crush mechanism, the result of penetration and permanent cavity, is the only
handgun wounding mechanism which damages tissue.


Goddard amply proves the fallacy of "knock-down power" by calculating the heights (and
resultant velocities) from which a one pound weight and a ten pound weight must be dropped to equal the
momentum of 9mm and .45ACP projectiles at muzzle velocities, respectively. The results are revealing.

In order to equal the impact of a 9mm bullet at its muzzle velocity, a one pound weight must be dropped
from a height of 5.96 feet, (6FEET!) achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps. To equal the impact of a .45ACP bullet, the
one pound weight needs a velocity of 27. 1 fps and must be dropped from a height of 1 1 .4 feet.(1,1feet!) A ten
pound weight equals the impact of a 9mm bullet when dropped from a height of 0.72 inches (velocity
attained is 1.96 fps), and equals the impact of a .45 when dropped from 1.37 inches (achieving a velocity
of 2.71 fps). 30 ( almost double the height!)

A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would
be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been
known for hundreds of years.

The definitions of knock down power and incapacitation are not equal or the same . Although the term may have been used interchangeably on here by mistake, the differences were thought to be clearly understood by everyone.

Permanent cavity can be increased by the use of expanding bullets, and/or larger diameter bullets, which have adequate penetration.

Bullet selection should be determined based on penetration first, and the unexpanded diameter of the bullet .

Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness.
It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss.


a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so.

ENERGY! It gives up a great deal of ENERGY .

The round which destroys 0.07% of the target will incapacitate more often
than the one which destroys 0.04%.

(And there you have it)

The differences between bullets may be small, but science can give us the means of identifying
that difference. The result is the edge all of law enforcement should be looking for.
Even if that edge is only 1%, it is not insignificant because
the guy trying to kill you could be in that 1%, and you won’t know it until it is too late.

Severity is a function of location, depth, and amount of tissue destroyed.

I have an issue with this statement:

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock"
of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration.

The bullet cannot leave the barrel without Kinetic energy, it cannot penetrate a target without Kinetic energy, and certainly cannot wound anything without Kinetic energy.

the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound
by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet.

Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs
from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs
from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

Full text of "fbi handgun wounding factors and effectiveness"
Click to expand...
Did you see this picture?

9mmvs40vs45.gif

Bigger bullet. Okay. Now tell me how much of a difference the .45 will make compared to a 9mm. Is it worth the loss in capacity? No. All your shots have to count since the capacity is so small. Now add multiple targets into the equation and....

Now tell me if that minut size difference (see picture above again) is also worth the loss in barrier penetration. What's better, a minut size increase that isn't really that much bigger that may not make it through a barrier or a slightly smaller one that makes it through and hits the person?

You like to deal with percentages. So why do you think it's better to have less bullets and less barrier penetration. Even more so if carrying a subcompact carry pistol with less capacity and less velocity.

I can understand if you forgo the decreased barrier penetration (well not really. I can't understand that.) for whatever reason but the percentages are way down on hits on target unless you carry a full sized 1911 with a 10 round extended magazine here in New York. We all know that's not ideal. More so in a free state. What good is a slightly bigger bullet if you don't have the capacity or barrier penetration? The size invalidates that argument and that's why law enforcement arm their officers with 9mm and .40 S&W. For that very reason. Also you fail to take into account that most hollow points expand to the same diameter as a slow moving .45 after expansion.

You have issue with kinetic energy that's been debunked because you refuse to see past your blindness. It's been evidenced in real life situations where people have survived wounds from larger calibers that expanded and dumped all their energy next to vital organs. What did that energy do in those cases?
 
71velle

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Willjr75 said:
Did you see this picture?

View attachment 30348

Bigger bullet. Okay. Now tell me how much of a difference the .45 will make compared to a 9mm. Is it worth the loss in capacity? No. All your shots have to count since the capacity is so small. Now add multiple targets into the equation and....

Now tell me if that minut size difference (see picture above again) is also worth the loss in barrier penetration. What's better, a minut size increase that isn't really that much bigger that may not make it through a barrier or a slightly smaller one that makes it through and hits the person?

You like to deal with percentages. So why do you think it's better to have less bullets and less barrier penetration. Even more so if carrying a subcompact carry pistol with less capacity and less velocity.

I can understand if you forgo the decreased barrier penetration (well not really. I can't understand that.) for whatever reason but the percentages are way down on hits on target unless you carry a full sized 1911 with a 10 round extended magazine here in New York. We all know that's not ideal. More so in a free state. What good is a slightly bigger bullet if you don't have the capacity or barrier penetration? The size invalidates that argument and that's why law enforcement arm their officers with 9mm and .40 S&W. For that very reason. Also you fail to take into account that most hollow points expand to the same diameter as a slow moving .45 after expansion.

You have issue with kinetic energy that's been debunked because you refuse to see past your blindness. It's been evidenced in real life situations where people have survived wounds from larger calibers that expanded and dumped all their energy next to vital organs. What did that energy do in those cases?
Click to expand...

By my math a 45 is 25% larger that a 9mm to me that is substantial.

Capacity of a Glock 21 is 14 rounds and a Glock 17 is 18 rounds. Yes more but 14 rounds should be able to handle multiple threats, imo.

And your obsession point of barrier penetration that doesent seem to be a stated point for any agency that switched to 9mm. Its not like 45 bounces off car doors and 9mm zips through cinder block walls.
 
Marine Cpl

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71velle said:
By my math a 45 is 25% larger that a 9mm to me that is substantial.

Capacity of a Glock 21 is 14 rounds and a Glock 17 is 18 rounds. Yes more but 14 rounds should be able to handle multiple threats, imo.

And your obsession point of barrier penetration that doesent seem to be a stated point for any agency that switched to 9mm. Its not like 45 bounces off car doors and 9mm zips through cinder block walls.
Click to expand...
You can play with numbers and percentages until you are blue in the face but look at the picture below! Look at it. 2 millimeters is 50 percent larger than 1 millimeter as well but that isn't valid based on the actual size of these calibers when all is said and done. Look at that picture and tell me that the .45 is significantly larger to make a difference that it's worth losing barrier penetration and capacity. 17x3 magazines equals 51 rounds vs 14x3 being 42 rounds. The numbers increase even further and the reloads increase even further as you add more magazines.

9mmvs40vs45.gif

And yes. Barrier penetration is a factor. A bullet that doesn't penetrate a barrier is a miss. Now add the lower capacity to that.

And who said barrier penetration isn't a stated point. It goes hand in hand when choosing a caliber. Ever wonder why back in the days average officers had. 38's but Highway Patrol had .357 Magnums?

Why after the 1986 FBI shooting after testing didn't they just call it a day and go with the .45? I'm sure barrier penetration was a huge factor. That's why the 10mm was created. Than the .40 S&W with less recoil and than afterwards back to 9mm since advancements in bullet construction and powders made the 9mm penetrate an expand to the same depth and circumference as the .40 S&W while retaining a few extra rounds.

You are talking .095 of a an inch smaller with a 9mm. Is .095 of an inch larger with the .45 worth losing capacity and barrier penetration? Not to me. Especially with a carry pistol with a 3 inch barrel that makes the .45 go 750 fps to further degrade barrier penetration and the short grip to further degrade capacity.
 
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ECU Pirates

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Willjr75 said:
You can play with numbers and percentages until you are blue in the face but look at the picture below! Look at it. 2 millimeters is 50 percent larger than 1 millimeter as well but that isn't valid based on the actual size of these calibers when all is said and done. Look at that picture and tell me that the .45 is significantly larger to make a difference that it's worth losing barrier penetration and capacity. 17x3 magazines equals 51 rounds vs 14x3 being 42 rounds. The numbers increase even further and the reloads increase even further as you add more magazines.

View attachment 30354

And yes. Barrier penetration is a factor. A bullet that doesn't penetrate a barrier is a miss. Now add the lower capacity to that.

And who said barrier penetration isn't a stated point. It goes hand in hand when choosing a caliber. Ever wonder why back in the days average officers had. 38's but Highway Patrol had .357 Magnums?

Why after the 1986 FBI shooting after testing didn't they just call it a day and go with the .45? I'm sure barrier penetration was a huge factor. That's why the 10mm was created. Than the .40 S&W with less recoil and than afterwards back to 9mm since advancements in bullet construction and powders made the 9mm penetrate an expand to the same depth and circumference as the .40 S&W while retaining a few extra rounds.

You are talking .095 of a an inch smaller with a 9mm. Is .095 of an inch larger with the .45 worth losing capacity and barrier penetration? Not to me. Especially with a carry pistol with a 3 inch barrel that makes the .45 go 750 fps to further degrade barrier penetration and the short grip to further degrade capacity.
Click to expand...
Is that the expanded bullet picture?
 
Marine Cpl

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holdover said:
Click to expand...
That's not accurate. This is!

entry-wounds-45-10mm-40-357mm-22-380-mam-38-22996996.png
 
Bullcreek_Strategic

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holdover said:
I was in Federal law enforcement years ago, everyone in the BP was issued .40 cal with hot loaded hollow points ,
Click to expand...
Yes BP gets issued 40 still, they arent specialized or on any kind of "special team" that we were referring too. BP is kinda like the coast guard lol. Jk nothing but love here.
 
GOPerfect

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Bullcreek_Strategic said:
@GOPerfect who knew this could go on this long?
Click to expand...


In the past, these "conversations" have gone on for weeks at a time.

Some, like @Willjr75 are adamant about choices of EDC ammo. Others, like myself, are just stuck on what we are comfortable using.

Sometimes it is like an unstoppable train hitting and unmovable wall.

But, still we conversate about it, over and over and over and over and over....
 
Marine Cpl

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GOPerfect said:
In the past, these "conversations" have gone on for weeks at a time.

Some, like @Willjr75 are adamant about choices of EDC ammo. Others, like myself, are just stuck on what we are comfortable using.

Sometimes it is like an unstoppable train hitting and unmovable wall.

But, still we conversate about it, over and over and over and over and over....
Click to expand...
That's what gun forums are for. I enjoy talking guns and calibers rather than Pelosi or Cuomo said xyz.

Some may actually get something out of this and not go by comfort alone. I did years ago. First carry was a 1911.
 
Marine Cpl

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holdover said:
Click to expand...
And just in case someone casually reading this takes this picture above as fact because I know some are gullible enough to believe it, it was created on a meme generator website. A Google image search shows that. It's a joke.

9mm, .380, .38 Special, and .357 Magnum should have the same entry holes since they are the same diameter. The exit holes should be based on the expansion. The picture doesn't show that.
 
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holdover

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Sorry will didnt mean to offend you. But the fact still remains the45 is a larger round, with larger entry and exit hole with a larger permanent cavlity. It's fact you refuse to except. Even your FBI report stated, that the larger round is preferred even if the difference is one percent . I happen to agree With the them
 
Marine Cpl

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holdover said:
Sorry will didnt mean to offend you. But the fact still remains the45 is a larger round, with larger entry and exit hole with a larger permanent cavlity. It's fact you refuse to except. Even your FBI report stated, that the larger round is preferred even if the difference is one percent . I happen to agree With the them
Click to expand...
Larger by how much Holdover? How many fractions of an inch? Enough that capacity limitations and less barrier penetration are good thing to forego? Enough that in a subcompact the bullet traveling 750 fps is a good thing?
 
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Ok Will I pulled these up from the interwebs, I cannot vouch for their legitimacy but they appear to be accurate.



Roughly 12% larger .





The difference is not massive. but is hardly insignificant.

You sound silly when you ""LOL"" at your own source. Cherry pick much?
 
Marine Cpl

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holdover said:
Ok Will I pulled these up from the interwebs, I cannot vouch for their legitimacy but they appear to be accurate.



Roughly 12% larger .





The difference is not massive. but is hardly insignificant.

You sound silly when you ""LOL"" at your own source. Cherry pick much?
Click to expand...
It's very insignificant. That particular load is a .12 of an inch difference. Some 9mm's expand to that same circumference of .70 and above. What do you think that extra. 12 in that particular load actually does in the body? It's beyond ridiculous. At this point you are just trying to find any way to win an argument.

So you are saying that a bullet that expands to .62 will kill but one that expands to .74 still kill even more? Does that extra .12 steal your soul? Lol. I'm lol ing at you Holdover. Talk about cherry picking. Some 9mm's expand to beyond .70.
 
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