Help me... 9 mm vs 45 ACP

spat

spat

.700 Nitro Express
Messages
27,971
Reaction score
58,648
Location
Formerly Geneseo, NY. Now free in AZ
Criticalt said:
Of course mass matters but in slow ass pistol rounds, speed trumps mass in most cases.
The OP asked for opinions about 9mm vs 45 acp.
There is zero advatage to the 45 acp over the 9mm.
The 45 holds less rounds in most cases, the ammo is far more expensive, it has more recoil and there are many cases where the 45 fails at barrier penetration.
The 9mm generally holds more rounds, is less expensive to train, has less recoil and comes in smaller framed guns if thats important.
Ballistically they are about the same....in gel....but the 9mm with the right cartridge is better through barriers. Which may be necessary to save your life.
Like mentioned by others, shot placement is paramount.
But that wasnt the question.
Click to expand...
Shot placement is most critical, so maybe the one you can afford to practice the most with is the best.

That puts things back in the 9mm court...
 
Criticalt

Criticalt

.338 Win Mag
Messages
8,387
Reaction score
15,692
Location
WNY
Marine Cpl said:
With a low velocity pistol, hole sizes whether entry, internal, or exit is not what stops you. It’s penetration to vitals that’ll stop you.

You don’t shoot someone to die later. So a smaller hole that is a millimeter or 2 smaller with slightly lower blood loss is irrelevant. Who cares if shot in the gut with a .45 compared to a 9mm results in a death of 10 minutes later vs 8 minutes later for example. It’s just flesh bleeding. Bleeding flesh doesn’t kill you quickly.

Only vitals struck kill you quickly. And whether a vital is struck with with a diameter of .355 vs .450 is irrelevant.

Energy, shock, etc is only relevant when it comes to rifles because the shockwave is so large that it can shut down vitals that aren’t hit.
Click to expand...
100% agree.
On a side note.....
Just for kicks I bought a few boxes of Underwood 100grain Extreme Defender 10mm, with listed speed at 1825 FPS and 740 ft lbs.
Should be fun to test.
There is another company advertising a 77 grain 10mm @2420 FPS and 1015 ft lbs.
Several others saying well over 2000 FPS.
 
Nevar

Nevar

.357 mag
Messages
649
Reaction score
799
Location
Long Island NY
Lets see. Being hit with a fast moving golf ball is A better stop. than being hit with A slower moving bowling Ball.
 
71velle

71velle

.223 Rem
Messages
1,192
Reaction score
1,140
Location
Rochester
Is much fun is the old caliber debate is, the OP was asking for advice on a pistol to carry in warm months. The size and weight advantage the 9s offer over the 45 make the 9 a winner here. The lightest 10 round 45 is over 30 oz. loaded and pretty wide to boot. If you like to carry an extra mag the 45 package weighs about a half pound more a 9mm package.

If this thread was about a pistol for the home then the 45 becomes something to consider.
 
Marine Cpl

Marine Cpl

.577 Tyrannosaur.
Messages
22,049
Reaction score
20,636
Location
Orange County
Also let’s not forget the capacity issue for a subcompact gun. XDS .45 vs Sig P365 or any other subcompact 10 rd 9mm for example with an extra magazine.

9mm
Sig P365 or similar 10+1+10= 21 rds.

.45
XDS 5+1+5= 11 rds
1911 7+1+7=15 rds
Glock 36 6+1+6=13 rds
 
Edwardteach72

Edwardteach72

.475 A&M Magnum
U.S. Military
Messages
14,883
Reaction score
15,064
Location
New York
If you think 41ft/lbs of energy is going to make a difference to a person being shot, well then there is no hope in this conversation for you

(Federal HST 230g .45acp (405ft/lb vs Federal HST 124g 9mm 364ft/lbs)
 
Nevar

Nevar

.357 mag
Messages
649
Reaction score
799
Location
Long Island NY
To end of this debate.
Here in nyshit stain your gonna get to fire 10 rounds of of 9mm or 10 rounds of .45acp [ the king] Agreed that the new type of high Vis. 9mm is good. You can,t beat real world the mas of A .45 ACP . Your life, your families life you choose . ps by the grace of the GODS you never have to pull the trigger
 
Edwardteach72

Edwardteach72

.475 A&M Magnum
U.S. Military
Messages
14,883
Reaction score
15,064
Location
New York
Nevar said:
To end of this debate.
Here in nyshit stain your gonna get to fire 10 rounds of of 9mm or 10 rounds of .45acp [ the king] Agreed that the new type of high Vis. 9mm is good. You can,t beat real world the mas of A .45 ACP . Your life, your families life you choose . ps by the grace of the GODS you never have to pull the trigger
Click to expand...



Hahaha so we are just making stuff up now.. got it
 
Edwardteach72

Edwardteach72

.475 A&M Magnum
U.S. Military
Messages
14,883
Reaction score
15,064
Location
New York
Let's see navy seals up until a few years ago stocked their Armory with sig P226 but most chose to use glock 19s and have since then moved over to... glock 19s
 
Edwardteach72

Edwardteach72

.475 A&M Magnum
U.S. Military
Messages
14,883
Reaction score
15,064
Location
New York
At best there was SOCOM and the MK23 which was used in such limited applications and with extremely stout 45 ammo.

Guess what its 2020 (pretty much) not 1960s anymore maybe you should get with the times and use actual relative information not shit you are making up
 
Marine Cpl

Marine Cpl

.577 Tyrannosaur.
Messages
22,049
Reaction score
20,636
Location
Orange County
Nevar said:
To end of this debate.
Here in nyshit stain your gonna get to fire 10 rounds of of 9mm or 10 rounds of .45acp [ the king] Agreed that the new type of high Vis. 9mm is good. You can,t beat real world the mas of A .45 ACP . Your life, your families life you choose . ps by the grace of the GODS you never have to pull the trigger
Click to expand...
To understand how handguns rounds work, you have to understand how rifle rounds work. Rifle rounds going over 2000 fps create a huge shockwave upon impact and that shockwave stretches the tissue past it's point of elasticity tearing a hole about 3 to 4 times the size of the bullet itself. That shockwave can also disrupt organs that are near the wound path.

Handgun rounds do not do that. Due to the slow velocities, the shockwave is small. Handgun rounds only make a wound track the size of the bullet itself. So if lets say a FMJ is used in 9mm and .45, the 9mm hole will be about .355 of an inch and the .45 would be about .450 of an inch. If using hollow points, the wound tracks will be the size of the expanded bullet. .623 for the 9mm for example and .729 for the .45 for example. There is no big shockwave to disrupt organs since the velocity is slow. Thats why handgun rounds suck. They are too slow to cause damage beyond the size of the bullet diameter itself.

So mass has nothing to do with anything for wounding. You can use a 185 gr FMJ or a 230 gr FMJ and the wound would be the same sized diameter. If using a smaller sized diameter like a 9mm, the wound size would only be .0095 of an inch smaller compared to a .45 ACP.
 
Last edited:
S

stuckhere

9mm
Messages
71
Reaction score
43
Location
Rensselaer
Marine Cpl said:
To understand how handguns rounds work, you have to understand how rifle rounds work. Rifle rounds going over 2000 fps stretch the tissue past it's point of elasticity tearing a hole about 3 to 4 times the size of the bullet itself. It also creates a big shockwave that disrupts organs that are near the wound path.

Handgun rounds do not do that. Due to the slow velocity, they only make a wound track the size of the bullet itself. So if lets say a FMJ is used in 9mm and .45, the 9mm hole will be about .355 of an inch and the .45 would be .450 of an inch. If using hollow points, the wound tracks will be the size of the expanded bullet. .623 for the 9mm for example and .729 for the .45 for example. There is no big shockwave to disrupt organs since the velocity is slow. Thats why handgun rounds suck. They are too slow to cause damage beyond the size of the bullet diameter itself.

So mass has nothing to do with anything for wounding. You can use a 185 gr FMJ or a 230 gr FMJ and the wound would be the same sized diameter. If using another small sized diameter like a 9mm, the wound size would only be .0095 of an inch smaller.
Click to expand...

I'll bite again...

We all know (should know) that real rifle rounds work, and handgun rounds (even out of a rifle barrel) generally suck.

But momentum, tied to bullet construction, from your specific handgun at terminal distance has everything to do with wounding when you don't (won't) know what the circumstances of the event will be. Generalizations of bullet diameters, expanded and not, along with weights are correct and agreeable if one is looking for good numbers in gel, water jugs, or meat targets. If the combination of specific handgun and cartridge selection with its (actually tested) velocities and historical performance of projectile are as optimal as can be predicted, than that combination will likely be a much more effective defensive tool that a randomly selected handgun and cartridge that by chance end up with poor penetration, poor expansion or lack of penetration (or deflection) while passing through random objects (hands, feet, clothes, wood, metal, glass etc.) on the way to the intended destination.

So 185FMJ vs 230FMJ in the same 45acp handgun being of the same effectiveness, I would personally disagree with. 147FMJ 9mm, 180FMJ .40, 230FMJ .45acp I would agree with being all sub-optimal, and kind of a toss up for defensive performance in a NYS-based caliber debate, I could go along with that, with obviously the 9mm being the most "shootable" of them.
 
Drinkthekoolaid

Drinkthekoolaid

.475 A&M Magnum
U.S. Military
Messages
15,664
Reaction score
27,649
Location
Unfortunately, NY
Not to derail the conversation but I remember reading this study awhile back.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

by Greg Ellifritz I've been interested in firearm stopping power for a very long time. I remember reading Handguns magazine back in the late 1980s when Evan Marshall was writing articles about his stopping power studies. When Marshall's first book came out in 1992, I ordered it immediately...
www.buckeyefirearms.org www.buckeyefirearms.org

Here is real world examples of caliber usage, % hits, % fatal, #of hits to stop threats etc..

It's worth a read. Also, the .22lr results may surprise you. Size isn't everything.
 
Chevusa

Chevusa

.338 Win Mag
Messages
6,718
Reaction score
7,644
Location
Erie
I remember hearing from one of those firearms guys on YouTube that there was a study done with real life shootings over a long period of time, and .40 and .357 mag had the highest fatal 1 shot hits with something around 96%. Just sayin.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top