Yes. Special forces and also Secret Service have both adopted the Glock 19.
Help me... 9 mm vs 45 ACP
- Thread starter SigFan
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
The different bullet weights of the same caliber matter under certain conditions.
For example, let’s use a human chest against a bear chest. In a human chest, both the 185 and 230 will be a complete pass through of the same diameter if using ball rounds. The extra weight of the 230 is not being used. On a bear chest that is a different matter. The extra tissue and bone is much more. Neither will pass through the bear chest but the extra weight of the 230 will cause more penetration.
Now let’s talk hollow points on a human chest. Hollow points have trouble penetrating because they have a larger surface area and parachute to a stop after expanding. The extra weight of the 230 will make it penetrate further than a 185 in theory but it depends on the bullet construction. Some 185’s are made more robust and expand slower than some 230’s so the 185 may penetrate further. It all depends on how the bullet is constructed but in theory, the 230’s will penetrate further due to the extra weight given all bullets are constructed the same. Not all bullets are constructed the same however. That’s why some 230 gr hollow points expand more and penetrate less than some 230 gr hollow points from a different brand.
Now let’s talk hard targets like metal. A faster moving 185 will penetrate the metal better than a slower moving 230. A 124 gr 9mm will penetrate the metal better than both the grains of the .45.
Depending on the construction and hardness of the target, sometimes the speed and smaller frontal area of the 9mm penetrates more than the bigger and heavier frontal area of a 45. That’s why you see in wood sometimes that a 9mm will out-penetrate a .45.
At the end of the day, the bullet you choose has to be tested. Some 9mm’s actually expand more than some .45’s and vice versa and some 9mm’s actually expand bigger than some .45’s and vice versa. It all depends on bullet construction and powder charge. But what is a definite is that on a human body, the wounds are negligible compared to one another. Both have to hit vitals to make an immediate stop. The size of the actual wounds are very close. So close that they do not make a difference. That’s why many agencies have gone to the 9mm since it without a doubt penetrates hard barriers better, recoils less, and the platform holds more rounds for extra chances if vitals aren’t hit.
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Those studies are flawed since shot placement would have to be identical for those results to matter and those shot would have to give up at the same rate if they aren’t killed immediately. At the end of the day, a bullet has to reach a vital organ to stop someone quickly. A shot to the gut with a .45 compared to a shot to the heart with a 9mm would provide a different result and vice versa. Also, someone shot in the gut with a .45 could keep fighting because he just doesn’t care and someone else with a shot to a leg with a 9mm could stop immediately because he doesn’t want to bleed out and die and wants medical attention.
Read my article I linked to in the post above yours. You might be surprised what real world examples have shown. It's interesting.
All good points. I have no dog in this fight. I've said from the 3rd or 4th post, they all perform about the same. Carry whatever you'd like. There are as many studies out there as there are opinions. This debate will go on forever. No one can prove they are right, so no one has to be wrong.
Every study has a different result. There are too many moving pieces and no control group, which is necessary for conclusive results.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
At the end of the day, all service calibers will kill you if vitals are hit. Some expand more than others and some penetrate more than others. Sometimes that extra penetration makes a difference because it just reached a vital and sometimes the extra expansion makes all the difference because the extra expansion just grazed a vital.
But vitals must be hit to stop someone quickly. For those vitals to be hit, capacity and recoil management could make the difference if a vital is struck as well. That’s why many go with more controllable calibers that hold more compared to a 44 Magnum that holds less and recoils more decreasing accurate hits.
But vitals must be hit to stop someone quickly. For those vitals to be hit, capacity and recoil management could make the difference if a vital is struck as well. That’s why many go with more controllable calibers that hold more compared to a 44 Magnum that holds less and recoils more decreasing accurate hits.
And even hitting vitals isnt always a instant or "quick" stop
the ones I worked with in 2014 were carrying sigs chambered in 40 S&W
Taking out the Brain stem is the only guaranteed one shot stop. A broken pelvis tends to stop them from moving forward.
Can still shoot back even with a broken pelvis
True but they are semi stationary targets At that point.
Oh I'm not disagreeing with you on any of this, I just know there are people who may be reading this and think someone on the ground cant still be a threat
we also don’t want people to confuse the meaning of one shot stop.
The one shot stop standard doesn’t mean the threat is neutralized it means the gun fight or the attack ended after one shot..
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Could be skewed by the fact that certain calibers are preferred by people who train more.
If gang bangers who only shoot 1 box of ammo in their lives all prefer 9mm, it's going to throw those statistics off.
The guy carrying a 10mm is more likely to spend at least one day a month at the range with it. That is likely to have a bigger effect than the fact that it has better ballistics.
Great points
We also don't want people getting training scars thinking x or y caliber hit place A or B is going to always stop every threat
I find the “One shot stop” studies fascinating but, they are irrelevant for choosing what is best for one’s self.
The 45 used to be king, then it was the 10 and the 40. I am not sure what is king of the caliber wars now, nor do I follow the studies like a schoolgirl follows the latest boy band.
If one uses it for a reference they can make informed choices but if one follows it like a religion they will be apt to make poor choices.
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@Marine Cpl unfortunately a shooting happened today.
But some silver lining. I know you like penetration (lol) and I am also a fan I personally feel that if it's on the FBI approved list than it has adequate penetration (as they have multiple things not just bare gel and heavy denim)
But when the two of us talk about barrier penetration and people laugh thinking 12-18" is crazy deep or over penetration and point out things like the size of an average person, there are other things to consider (and I know you as well as I and some others do consider the following)
Such as not ideal situations. Thankfully an armed individual was able to take a shot and stop the threat at the church today. Here is a screen grab from the shooting, if you look closely it appears that the gunman has turned sideways meaning the good guy had to shoot broadside and still penetrate deep enough for those vitals..
(Not sure what he was shooting, rumor is he was ex FBI, someone said they read it was a Sig 226 in .357sig but I cant comment on what he used and what caliber or round was used)
But some silver lining. I know you like penetration (lol) and I am also a fan I personally feel that if it's on the FBI approved list than it has adequate penetration (as they have multiple things not just bare gel and heavy denim)
But when the two of us talk about barrier penetration and people laugh thinking 12-18" is crazy deep or over penetration and point out things like the size of an average person, there are other things to consider (and I know you as well as I and some others do consider the following)
Such as not ideal situations. Thankfully an armed individual was able to take a shot and stop the threat at the church today. Here is a screen grab from the shooting, if you look closely it appears that the gunman has turned sideways meaning the good guy had to shoot broadside and still penetrate deep enough for those vitals..
(Not sure what he was shooting, rumor is he was ex FBI, someone said they read it was a Sig 226 in .357sig but I cant comment on what he used and what caliber or round was used)
That's why I asked for a source since the chances of it being .357sig is slim to none.
Especially if the claims of him being retired FBI aka not using 357sig
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
People need to realize that anything can happen.
All you need is a 6 shot revolver. Yeah. Well what happens when he’s behind cover and shooting back at you?
11 and 3/4’s inches of gel penetration isn’t enough for you? No. If it does below the bare minimum what will it do if it goes through a wooden pew first and then strikes him boradside?
For me 18 isn’t enough.
Or hits him in the shoulder, or if this was just the first guy and you fired 4 shots from a 6 shot revolver.
Oh let's not forget (if anyone saw the video) not being good with their draw, a man is dead today because he was carrying small of back and couldnt draw his gun proficiently
garyv350
.357 mag
So get one and buy a conversion barrel for it.
BMF JK
.44 mag
.357 sig ? Great more than ever I’ll certainly hear from my BIL how superior the .357 sig is !
On a serous note , thankfully this shooting wasn’t much worse .
Not to criticize a dead man , however the first victim made some fatal errors everyone can learn from .
Standing and drawing attention from the shooter while fumbling for his gun was a BIG mistake . In this scenario had he stayed seated while drawing his weapon his chance of opportunity to make a shot would have increased greatly . If you can’t draw your weapon while seated your carrying method is useless PERIOD !
Practice clearing your cover garment . Every time you strap up go through the motion to ensure that if need be you can get your gun without fumbling with shit ! Another reason to dress around your gun . Practice with an unloaded gun drawing and dry firing ( build muscle memory ) . If your lucky enough to have a place where you can clear draw and fire live DO IT !
On a serous note , thankfully this shooting wasn’t much worse .
Not to criticize a dead man , however the first victim made some fatal errors everyone can learn from .
Standing and drawing attention from the shooter while fumbling for his gun was a BIG mistake . In this scenario had he stayed seated while drawing his weapon his chance of opportunity to make a shot would have increased greatly . If you can’t draw your weapon while seated your carrying method is useless PERIOD !
Practice clearing your cover garment . Every time you strap up go through the motion to ensure that if need be you can get your gun without fumbling with shit ! Another reason to dress around your gun . Practice with an unloaded gun drawing and dry firing ( build muscle memory ) . If your lucky enough to have a place where you can clear draw and fire live DO IT !
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Your tactical points are all valid, but there is one thing you're missing.
If this guy hadn't drawn the fire, it's likely someone else would have been killed instead.
It's also possible that this guy drawing the attention of the attacker is what allowed the guy who stopped him to get a shot.
I'm not saying any of what you said is wrong, just that we shouldn't discount the contribution of this guy who gave his life defending his fellow churchgoers just because he could have done better.