Legal non-NFA short barrel "other" or "firearm"

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pmcjuryny

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Airborneguy said:
I'd bet an entire paycheck on a conviction for CPW regarding this weapon. Find a case and we'll follow it and my bet stands.
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I'm not going to bet on some ones misfortune, one could argue that no one getting arrested for this type of gun, could be proof that it is legal.

Also as to your claim that simply adding a foregrip to a pistol can not change its classification, take a look at this. It might be informative. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...wVHJ6T0MQZoZd2MDg&sig2=hm9rabw8wvaCto6vtBK_3g

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Airborneguy

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That link proves my point. It does not legalize a firearm to simply add a front grip. That paper details the steps necessary to make it legal.

Again, illegal. End of story. Sucks but true.
 
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pmcjuryny

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Airborneguy said:
That link proves my point. It is not legal to simply add front grip to a firearm. That paper details the steps necessary to make it legal.

Again, illegal. End of story. Sucks but true.
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No the link points out exactly the opposite of what you claimed. You claimed adding a foregrip can not change the definition of a gun. The pdf shows that adding a fore grip does in fact change the classification of a gun, and if certain steps aren't followed you can break nfa law in the process.

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There is another atf letter saying that if the over all length is over 26" making the gun unconcealable according the the atf, and with the addition of a fore grip, making it designed to be fired with two hands, that the resulting gun would be considered an "other" similar to the classification of a pistol grip only shotgun.

I have the letter on my pc, but you should be able to Google it, or I may have even posted it in a separate thread.
 
Airborneguy

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Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough:

It's a firearm by NYS law. You will be charged with CPW firearm for that gun, as I said from the start. More precisely, I mean that slapping on a front grip doesn't put you in some "awe shucks, he beat us" realm in regards to the law.
 
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Airborneguy said:
Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough:

It's a firearm by NYS law. You will be charged with CPW firearm for that gun, as I said from the start. More precisely, I mean that slapping on a front grip doesn't put you in some "awe shucks, he beat us" realm in regards to the law.
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Maybe you should go back to the beginning of the thread and reread the whole thread. Even Willjr75 agrees that the resulting gun wouldn't be a pistol, and there for not a "firearm" per nys law. He just says you will be arrested and convicted regardless.

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Airborneguy

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Its a pistol in NY. A pistol with removeable front grip. No need to go back and forth. Good luck if you get one. Cheers.
 
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pmcjuryny said:
That was in regards to the forward grip on a glock, although I guess if you did an 80% frame, but attached the forward grip before you put the slide on, the same could be applied. Although then it wouldn't be a glock either.

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If you lived in Tennessee where there are no gun laws really except federal ones, that would work. The ATF isn't looking for you and the local cops aren't either. SBR's and other stuff is a norm. They aren't concerned about if you added a grip first or later to a pistol and got the stamp or didn't.

However, you live in NY where all firearms are Illegal unless exempted. Most cops are looking for gun collars. Not all but most. The jury will be composed of Fudds, liberals, people who have been conditioned to think cops should only have certain guns, and the plain ignorant.

When the ADA reads to the jury that you were arrested for the possession of a pistol in an AW configuration, and defines an AW pistol, they will just vote for it to go to trial. At the trial you will go through all the arguments you have had here. Whether it's a judge or jury that decides, chances are they will be anti gun slanted.

That is the truth. They aren't going to care if you added the grip before it was built or after. They aren't going to care that there is no NY definition of a pistol. They will show the definition of an Assault Weapon in a pistol configuration and perhaps pictures to the jury of what AR pistols with features are and then they will show them what you have. It will look the same to them. I'd be really surprised if you weren't convicted.

I agree with you that it isn't a pistol. Yet it probably wouldn't work out that way in trial. I know it should be innocent until proven guilty but dollars to donuts says otherwise. You aren't going to be dealing with progun guys and gals there. They will be told it's a pistol, it will look like a pistol so it will be a pistol.

Just my 2 cents. NY is anti gun.
 
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pmcjuryny

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Willjr75 said:
If you lived in Tennessee where there are no gun laws really except federal ones, that would work. The ATF isn't looking for you and the local cops aren't either. SBR's and other stuff is a norm. They aren't concerned about if you added a grip first or later to a pistol and got the stamp or didn't.

However, you live in NY where all firearms are Illegal unless exempted. Most cops are looking for gun collars. Not all but most. The jury will be composed of Fudds, liberals, people who have been conditioned to think cops should only have certain guns, and the plain ignorant.

When the ADA reads to the jury that you were arrested for the possession of a pistol in an AW configuration, and defines an AW pistol, they will just vote for it to go to trial. At the trial you will go through all the arguments you have had here. Whether it's a judge or jury that decides, chances are they will be anti gun slanted.

That is the truth. They aren't going to care if you added the grip before it was built or after. They aren't going to care that there is no NY definition of a pistol. They will show the definition of an Assault Weapon in a pistol and perhaps pictures to the jury of what AR pistols with features are and then they will show them what you have. It will look the same time them. I'd be really surprised if you weren't convicted.

I agree with you that it isn't a pistol. Yet it probably wouldn't work out that way in trial. I know it should be innocent until proven guilty but dollars to donuts says otherwise. You aren't going to be dealing with progun guys and gals there. They will be told it's a pistol, it will look like a pistol so it will be a pistol.

Just my 2 cents. NY is anti gun.
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I was trying to think through how you could have an aow, without first being in possesion of a pistol in ny.

Either way, I think I found the reason for our vastly different opinions, according to your profile your from orange county, I live in genesee county, things are different out here. For the most part the cops aren't looking to make there mark with gun arrests.

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pmcjuryny said:
I was trying to think through how you could have an aow, without first being in possesion of a pistol in ny.

Either way, I think I found the reason for our vastly different opinions, according to your profile your from orange county, I live in genesee county, things are different out here. For the most part the cops aren't looking to make there mark with gun arrests.

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Don't fool yourself into thinking that. No they aren't going to ranges and the like. But if ever stopped and searched for whatever reason, they aren't going to reclose your trunk and send you on your way.

Chances are that they do not even know generic firearms exist as per the ATF or whether it is over 26 inches or needs a grip or not. It will look like a pistol with a foregrip on it.

NYS Troopers definitely won't know. And don't fool yourself about Orange. I'm surrounded by farms and we voted red just like you did.
 
spat

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Airborneguy said:
It's not.

The near-instantaneously removeable front grip does not change any legal definition. It's like slapping a Cobra on a Prius and well, you know...
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Except you could now get a nasty federal charge of an unregistered AOW.

If someone had a legally registered pistol and added the foregrip, tthey could not be charged under ny law because it is a legal pistol and could be charged under federal law because it is not....

Assuming they decide to prosecute both charges in the case where the base gun wasnt on a permit they would be in the dubious position of arguing that it both is and isn't a pistol at the same time, and unlike "firearm" they do not have 2 definitions to use to explain the discrepancy.

In a reasonable system the whole bunch of laws would be thrown out for being ambiguous before the 2A challenge even started, but we all know it isnt a reasonable system....
 
freddy

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Airborneguy said:
You will be charged with CPW firearm for that gun, as I said from the start. More precisely, I mean that slapping on a front grip doesn't put you in some "awe shucks, he beat us" realm in regards to the law.
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Does "CPW" stand for compact personal weapon? I am not finding any NY statutes on this. Would you mind pointing me to the laws you are referring to? Or are you talking about the NY defined "assault pistol" that @Willjr75 has already posted in this thread?
 
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Airborneguy

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Exactly. When arrested, you aren't charged under the definitions. You're charged using whichever penal law section fits the facts of the case.
 
freddy

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Willjr75 said:
Don't fool yourself into thinking that. No they aren't going to ranges and the like. But if ever stopped and searched for whatever reason, they aren't going to reclose your trunk and send you on your way.
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Good reason to use a locking pelican hard case. At least if it is true that LE cannot force you to open it unless arrested, correct?
 
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Do you have a pistol permit Freddy? If so, why not go fixed mag pistol and unfix the mag at a PA range and avoid all this nonsense?
 
Airborneguy

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Yup. I'd have to review because I don't do that stuff any more, but any removeable container (ie, not th is gloce box or truck) would require a warrant.
 
freddy

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Willjr75 said:
Do you have a pistol permit Freddy? If so, why not go fixed mag pistol and unfix the mag at a PA range and avoid all this nonsense?
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I do have a permit, and I agree with your solution Will. What taunts me is the possibility that we can say FUAC (really say FUAC) by playing his own game of legalities. I mean wouldn't that be something to have what (to the layman) appears to be a full featured SBR with working mag release? And then, if it came down to it, win in court? C'mon, party in the streets! I will consult an attorney before going further with this.
 
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