freddy
.308 Win
Isn't that precisely when you need a machine gun?
Legal non-NFA short barrel "other" or "firearm"
- Thread starter freddy
- Start date
Isn't that precisely when you need a machine gun?
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
Touche! LOL
When I had my FFL/SOT I had M16, Uzi, MP5, AC556, SWD, Thompson, Stebn and a host of others. The best was when my examiner said to me "You know you can't collect those, I want to see you selling and buying them" Good thing he said buying them!! LOL
My favorite was the MP5 and the M16. You are right though ammo costs and I could have purchased several cars!
My favorite was the MP5 and the M16. You are right though ammo costs and I could have purchased several cars!
Eddie Gunks
.338 Win Mag
@Airborneguy
A fellow dealer has a letter for the Onondaga (i think it is onondaga) sheriff stating that the shockwave 14 inch "shotgun" is legal.
I will be getting a copy of that letter shortly.
"I told .........."
A fellow dealer has a letter for the Onondaga (i think it is onondaga) sheriff stating that the shockwave 14 inch "shotgun" is legal.
I will be getting a copy of that letter shortly.
"I told .........."
freddy
.308 Win
Of course its legal. Clear as the day is long dammit!@Airborneguy
A fellow dealer has a letter for the Onondaga (i think it is onondaga) sheriff stating that the shockwave 14 inch "shotgun" is legal.
I will be getting a copy of that letter shortly.
"I told .........."
I didn't talk about that one at all. I only addressed that AR that suddenly becomes legal because it has a front grip on it.
Exonautic
.308 Win
Can we get a tldr on the loophole ar?
freddy
.308 Win
So in summary, depending on interpretation of the statutes, the thought process is as follows. The (full featured AND working mag release) Franklin Armory XO 26 R2 is compliant in NY because:
A. It is NOT a 'rifle' in NY because it was not designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder (no shoulder stock), see NY Penal Law § 265.00(11)
B. It is NOT a 'AOW' (undefined in NY, but defined in federal law) because it is longer than 26 inches, see 26 USC § 5845
C. It is NOT a 'pistol' or 'handgun' in NY (neither term is defined by NYS) because it is not designed to be held and fired by use of a single hand, and is over 26", see 18 USC § 921(29)
D. It is NOT an 'assault pistol' in NY (see NY Penal Law § 265.00(22c)) because it is does not meet the Federal definition of a pistol, see 18 USC § 921(29)
E. It is NOT an 'assault weapon' in NY because it is not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, see NY Penal Law § 265.00(22)
F. It is NOT a 'firearm' in NY because it is not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, see NY Penal Law § 265.00(3). However it is a 'firearm' by federal definition, see 18 USC § 921(3)
G. It IS therfore an 'other' (ATF form 4473) as originally built and shown (working mag release), and NY compliant if used with 10 round magazines
EDIT: adding statutes and adjusting wording to better reflect my present understanding
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Exonautic
.308 Win
Thank you so much. I did not want to read this whole thread. So what if i built myself one?
freddy
.308 Win
There is risk either way; if you build it, or, if you get the XO 26 R2.
Consult an attorney first.
I am.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Freddy is 100 percent correct but whether a cop charges you with having a unregistered pistol in an AW configuration due to the pistol grip and non registration, that is another story. At that point, you have to defend yourself.
Uzi
.308 Win
Title II (National Firearms Act) weapons restricted S 265.02, S 265.02 Ownership of machine guns, suppressors, short-barreled rifles, and short-barreled shotguns are prohibited to the average citizen. Destructive devices are permitted except for rockets with greater than 3 ounces of propellant, which are prohibited. AOW's are legal to own but are still required to be on a pistol permit. AOW's disguised as non-firearms are illegal.
Eddie Gunks
.338 Win Mag
Oh! Sorry. I cant keep all this internet shit straight......
freddy
.308 Win
The XO 26 R2 is none of these. It is established by ATF to be non-NFA. The question is can it skirt NYS laws.
Uzi
.308 Win
If an average citizen can legally own an AOW and there are no legal restrictions pertaining to it apart from one disguised as a non firearm, then yes, it would be legal for an average citizen to own in NYS. However, it's the complications that make it difficult. If you buy it, good luck getting all the approval and transfer done to add it to your >pistol< permit. Following that, if you make one yourself, make sure that the lower is not being added on as a pistol of any kind, and explain that to the clerk or officer or judge or all of them after you get an FFL that will also accept it also knows how to go about figuring it out.
Exonautic
.308 Win
As freddy said, its not an aow. Therefore shouldnt have to be on a pistol permit.
The problem being addressed is whether or not some people in our great republic of new york will see it as an illegal assault variety.
Uzi
.308 Win
Okay, So if everyone is 100% certain it's not an AOW or FIREARM, Where lies the definition of "OTHER".
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
There isn't one. NY has the most poorly written laws in the country.
Uzi
.308 Win
Well, they way I see it then would be if NY doesn't have any independent definition for that gun which exists in other states, it would resort to the federal definition or classification.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
If that is the case, then it's a firearm. Firearms are illegal in NYS unless exempted.
We debated that on another thread I believe but none of us truly know what happens in regards to lack of definitions.
Eddie Gunks
.338 Win Mag
For the feds it is a firearm.
18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions
Federal Firearm Prohibition: Gun Ban for Felonies, Misdemeanors, More
For nys.....who knows?
Uzi
.308 Win
Very confusing for me right now. If Federally it's considered a firearm, and NYS doesn't allow "firearms" it looks like it would not be legal. I don't understand it enough and I guess I thought I did at least little bit to get some idea. I do know that they're already selling those short barreled "shotguns" with the horizontal grip. I guess those are AOW's? I get headaches so easily now.
freddy
.308 Win
The 14" barrel shockwave 12 gauge are 'other' on ATF form 4473. Not an AOW. I am hoping that this an example of a legal gun that slips through the NYS definitions. If so, then there is a good chance for the XO 26 R2 to also skirt the law.
An AR with all the evil features AND working mag release (not a fixed mag)... like the good ol' days!
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freddy
.308 Win
NOT a firearm in NY because it is not a pistol, not an SBR, not an SBS.
Uzi
.308 Win
Yeah, we've established that already.
Uzi
.308 Win
The shockwave gun is already legal and being sold in NYS, so....
freddy
.308 Win
Exactly! There is hope.
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
They aren't prohibited from an average citizen. They just have to be on a Form 3 or Form 4. Uncle Sam wants their $200 vigorish. I will say one thing about Obama - before him the BATF took upwards of 3 or 4 months to get your tax stamp done. Under Obama it got down to like 2 or 3 weeks. Maybe because the office moved from Virginia to Atlanta? All I know is it got *MUCH* faster. It's bullshit that NY State feels they supersede the NFA - sub guns are a hoot.
Uzi
.308 Win
Yes, They sure are prohibited in NY for an average citizen. That's what the paragraph was citing, for NY. Those weren't my own words, that was taken off of NYS gun laws from wiki. Sub guns are fun, I know. I'm well aware of other NFA items regarding other state laws, I know that you can own them and what is required.
hoodfu
.40 S&W
So this was posted earlier today. An actual letter! It would imply that the police do follow the law, implying hope for something like what you guys have been talking about.
https://www.dark-storm.com/images/promo/0/SCPD-Shockwave-Letter-5-19-2017.pdf
https://www.dark-storm.com/images/promo/0/SCPD-Shockwave-Letter-5-19-2017.pdf