Let talk 6.5 Grendel
- Thread starter zzrguy
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ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
I typed out 'I'll take it' PMs to you three times on that setup, as I recall. Just couldn't pull the trigger due to the price of getting into another bullet diameter.
Is the .74" gas block journal a typo or is .010" the typical dimension for clearance?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
No that is the 6.5 BR. It is a bench rest cartridge that is nothing but the amazing 6mmBR but necked up to 6.5mm.
It is as simple as that. There is no need to fire-form nor do anything else, run the dies and presto.
Like the 6mm parent the 6.5 is a match winner in terms of accuracy. other variants like the 7mm BR and 30 BR
are also winners in score match competition but for the AR use I think the 6.5 offers the best performance in
terms of terminal energy and trajectory and to hunt with authority. Essentially it puts you pretty close to the 260 Rem
and 6.5 creedmore mid way between the Grendel and those. So one can tackle with authority larger game and
reach longer if long range is your thing.
I got into this when I was into the 260 Remington for the same reasons as the op because I wanted the best
possible caliber in the AR15 to use the same bullets.
Now I am more into the 6mm, 7mm and my 35 gunner so don't have time even space to deal with
all the calibers.
If someone really likes the 6.5 Grendel there is a chamber called the 6.5 LBC that is made by Les Baer
that is compatible with the 6.5 Grendel ammo but imo is a better chamber due to the optimized
throat dimensions so by design is more accurate.
With this I don't mean the 6.5 Grendel is not accurate, in fact it is but the 6.5 LBC makes a slight
change in the throat in line with Bench Rest and high precision shooting. It addresses some of the
looseness and since it is backwards compatible with the 6.5 Grendel is a win win situation.
Also if one want to improve the ballistics of the grendel in a very simple way there is a chamber that
is nothing but the grendel neck down to 6mm.
One can shoot 105-107gr bullets 200 fps faster than the grendel can launch the 120 bullets. And because
the 6mm bullets are more efficient then it quickly puts more energy and flatter trajectory and shoots
further if one is going to do target or hunting lets say coyotes at long range.
This is also a very simple one. Run the FL die and presto!
I am saying this because for the case capacity of the grendel (35-36gr) the ideal bullet would be a 108 to 110gr
and in that weight the 6mm does so much better than even the 123gr lead bullets in 6.5mm.
A good example is the 6mm nosler RDF that has a ballistics coefficient G1: .571 G7: .280
Berger, hornady, jlk, sierra, dtec, also has amazing 6mm bullets so the sky is the limit.
It is all about the bullet. Makes sense?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I think this might have happened with another barrel the day before I left and then I was away overseas on a business trip.
I am going to sell them all to make room and buy a few tools to work my other projects.
it is standard 3/4 that is not precisely .75 by a couple of thousands as expected. just a typo. I should fix and put the precise dimensions.
The price of anything made with a Krieger is higher for obvious reasons.
A bolt group that is proven and can take also 62k psi is not cheap neither.
I paid $200 just for bolts and extensions w/o the barrel to make future projects so this is
the way it is if you want something that is going to last.
This was done with the idea of competing so that is why a top quality barrel.
Same thing if one is a sniper or a competitive shooter, they are not going to give you a $150 barrel.
Even with the higher prices it pays off because with these you shoot precision and shoot slower and IMO when
one gets into reloading and shooting these they save money in the long run and also good barrels last longer
but mainly the cost of the barrel is quickly shadowed by the savings in ammo and specially true satisfaction time.
So the difference in barrel and bolt cost is nothing in the entire budget yet it is an essential and critical part and the
beating heart of the AR and the DI system.
I know a lot of people think ..oh I can dot that with a cheap kit. The reality is no, you can't.
This doesn't mean you cannot find great options as we are blessed with great deals and good balance in value but in this case and
for the objectives at hand, this is in a whole different league all together.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
... I was thinking ...
it is no secret I am passionate about ballistics and exploring new ways to get extra performance from the AR15.
One can make more powerful AR15 like my 7mm Gunner but the reason I brought up the 6.5BR is because it is
in the same bore as the grendel and IMHO the 6.5BR is the easiest way to get the most performance and
accuracy out of an AR15 w/o getting into complex brass forming and complicated wildcats that is the
reason people get tired of them.
This one is as simple as reloading a 223 remington. Run the FL sizing die once and done. No fire-forming,
no trimming if you don't want to, no nothing. I mean, if you want to load also quality match 223 loads
there is going to be some attention to detail and perhaps some annealing once in awhile but as for
the rest the lapua brass is as good as it gets and those 4-5 extra grains of powder make a huge difference.
IMO this is what the grendel should have been but the bolt technology was not there at the time
so I understand that.
it is no secret I am passionate about ballistics and exploring new ways to get extra performance from the AR15.
One can make more powerful AR15 like my 7mm Gunner but the reason I brought up the 6.5BR is because it is
in the same bore as the grendel and IMHO the 6.5BR is the easiest way to get the most performance and
accuracy out of an AR15 w/o getting into complex brass forming and complicated wildcats that is the
reason people get tired of them.
This one is as simple as reloading a 223 remington. Run the FL sizing die once and done. No fire-forming,
no trimming if you don't want to, no nothing. I mean, if you want to load also quality match 223 loads
there is going to be some attention to detail and perhaps some annealing once in awhile but as for
the rest the lapua brass is as good as it gets and those 4-5 extra grains of powder make a huge difference.
IMO this is what the grendel should have been but the bolt technology was not there at the time
so I understand that.
ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
So are those Krieger's H-BAR DCM profile?
I might be persuaded to switch if someone was willing to buy my ARP Grendel barrel and 750XD bolt...
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
They are not heavy barrels. They are semi heavy that makes them much lighter but still
pretty rigid and good on harmonics. I think they are perfect for this task and in 20".
So I think yes they are a bit like DMR type of profile now that mention this.
I will post the precise dimensions.
They can afford to be 20" because even if you load them mild that will increase brass life
still is 100fps faster than the grendel with a 24" barrel.
I think on average is 200fps faster than the grendel that is perfect because the grendel is
slow and although one has still nice bullets the actual trajectory suffers a lot when starting
that slow. So there is a big difference starting at 300 yards. Plus it also takes those 125gr
and 130gr bonded like the partition and puts them to 2600-2650 fps that is almost 300 fps
faster than the grendel and for large mule deer or large black bears it does make a substantial
difference at impact and also effective range.
Again, it doesn't mean the Grendel is not good for that. What I mean is that it gives you
that extra edge when tackling that situation like a large deer or large hog or whatever and
also gives you the extra range.
I think if presented with the 300 yards situation of a challeging angle or larger animal this
I feel better and then the 6.8 spc that is amazing at delivering for hunting in the 300 yards too.
But again you have the extra reach too at long range. It is hard to decide because everyone
is different. I always though about competing long range to be honest otherwise I don't know...
But it turns out to produce lots of power for hunting obviously that is also optional.
I guess is like we always say... it is better to have it and don't need it than to need it and
don't have it.
So I keep some rounds boxed and loaded really hot with the 125gr partition and the TSX solids
that will blast almost like a 260. These are not the most accurate for precision but they are powerful
hunting rounds. Think of buffalo bore type of pressures and energy. It leaves the typical 308W
behind in terms of trajectory too.
For target one can comfortably run a milder load and like I said will preserve the brass and parts
because the Grendel will have to run full pressure and still cannot shoot that fast and flat.
It is simple physics. I mean, I cannot load the full 10 rounds magazines because of the larger case
but I don't need 10 rounds to kill a deer! For me these are a 5 round repeater that is more
than plenty as I never load more for anything. In target I only shoot 5 rounds strings so I never
worried about modifying a magazine to take more than 6 or 7. Don't need them.
Nobody should need even more than 1 or 2 rounds for a deer otherwise they better find other sport. LOL
...even the 35 gunner I can load 10 rounds but the magazines get heavy and what for so still shoot
5 at the time. That one one bullet will kill 3 white tails in a row if needed lol.
ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
This seems like an appropriate place for this quote.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You are going to give Meke a stroke posting this. This upper might get 2moa compared to another one that'll get 1 moa.
I have to ask because I've been pretty smitten with the 6.8. So my question is out of a standard AR .... let's say carbine is one caliber better than the other?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
LOL. No intention to cause Meke to stroke out but would like to hear his opinion on the setup. Sure they're inexpensive but I have a BCA barrel (.223 Wylde) that I'm pretty happy with so far. Still have to give it a real test with good ammo to see how it performs.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
It seems to be a wash between the 2 until about 500 yards according to the article. After that, the Grendel wins. It's maximum effective range is longer and it drifts and drops less. The Grendel also has much cheaper ammo if that is a concern to you.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
6.8 is a better cartrige to hunt at the distances one average hunts and should hunt with these calibers out to 300 yards maximum (give or take).
The grendel is better at longer ranges using a long barrel and for paper punching or hitting steel and also at coyotes far away like those who live in the plains. Both can take the role of the other with careful selection of bullets and reloading.
The 6.8 works best in average barrel lengths too of 16" and 18".
IMHO in the 16" inches is the one that makes more sense of all easy AR calibers for hunting and extra power.
Ammo for the 6.8 is loaded rader mild but still have some good loads from Hornady, Federal, SSA, S&B etc... (No steel case yet).
6.5G has steel ammo from tula that is a nice thing but do not expect great accuracy and it is quite dirty.
The main issue with the grendel is that one cannot find one with a good strong bolt for low prices. I have yet to see one with
a quality bolt that will last for bottom deals. If one doesn't use it that much the bolt might last but eventually it will break unless
is one bolt well made and beefed up like those offered by top tier manufacturers. Those barrels and bolts are more expensive
for a reason and on average more accurate and reliable.
Same thing applies to the 7.62x39 AR uppers. Quality bolts and barrels are not the cheapest deals one can find.
Cheap deals from Model1, primary arms, stoner, etc... have been breaking bolts left and right. Alexander arms with the grendel
had his shared of problems too. Things are getting better slowly but if one wants trouble free setups one needs to look for the ones
that have been proven to be durable and not necessarily spend a fortune in the LWRC.
Even LWRC and LMT had their share of broken bolts but things are getting better. But there are others that are much better.
That is why I always advice on this subject.
The 6.8 is a stronger bolt by design because there is more material around the lugs due to the slightly smaller bolt face.
But even here I like to buy the ARP products because of their additional extrength. I am one of the early customers but
ask others in this and other forums. Now don't ask in the Grendel forums because they are totally biased and push a lot
for AA. ... but do a bit of homework if you know what I mean.
I think if someone has already bullets in one caliber then one should look for that caliber if they want to consolidate that
is something that makes total sense. Just find a good product.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
That study is not that accurate because they are testing with ammo under the Spec1 and not body
with common sense would test with the mildest possible ammo one can find.
With the Spec 2 (SPC II) chambers that are the one that one most likely find in the market the
people either find hotter factory ammo or they reload.
Manufacturers do not even properly maintain their 6.8 Data in their websites.
Hornady has the slower possible speed with the 24" barrel that is a mistake.
Their new website has been out for a while and they do not fix it.
It is like the blackout fanatics they always compare $40 high performance ammo with the typical
el cheapo 223 55gr M193.
Obviously the marketing and fanatics do not want to compare to a high performance 75-85gr 223 Bullet
because it leaves the blackout in the dust. Even the most expensive of those is cheaper than the whisper
and blackout.
So these articles are fun but they have to be read with some fact checking on the side.
IMO a great load for a lot of things for the 6.8SPC II is the popular 95gr TTSX that can be lauched at
2900fps using AA2230 / Xterminator.
that is a lightning bolt. Speed is what gets the job done.
I mean, nothing wrong with the hornady 120gr SST as it is a great white tail round and proven
hog hammer but I am just saying in case one wants to really get to experience the 6.8 SPC II as
it stands today and not with the limitation of the Spec 1 / SAAMI spec.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
So which one is greater at a distance comparing the best loads of the 2?
Last edited:
kev74
20×102mm Vulcan
Sometimes 2 moa is good enough.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Especially for the money. You don't always need match grade.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
In terms of factory the Grendel but IMO needs a long barrel better for that.
But if one reloads one can take comparable bullets and longer 6.8 barrels and produce virtually the same trajectories.
SSA used to make this round but then Since they are Nosler now they stopped making some of the best ammo in
exchange for more "popular" one and more expensive anyway.
6.8 SPC Ammunition for Sale. Silver State Armory 140 Grain Hollow-Point (HP) - 200 Rounds
This with a 19" upper produces 2,450 fps avg. With a 22" upper expect 2,550fps that is amazing. The grendel can shoot the 120gr
faster but the 140 are better and have more momentum on the target. not a huge difference though.
Of course for this one needs ASC, PRI or Six8 mags that allow for the full 2.3 coal w/o problems.
Those are the mags one should buy anyway and ASC as very cheap and durable.
I also suggest these mags for the grendel and reloading.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I think more times than not even budget AR uppers produce decent accuracy.
Unlike the 5.56, the worry is reliability and durability specially with the added bolt issues.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
What about wind drift and drop?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Grendel shoots a tad flatter but not much. not even a mil difference. Drop doesn't matter that much because it is predictable.
Wind is the same both are nice match bullets.
the key is that the 140gr is a hunting bullets and also puts more momentum on the target.
But right now it requires reloading and testing.
IMO a 6.8 is ideal in 18 inches and then look for the top performing bullets.
There is a new bullet called cavity back bullets that are specially designed for the 6.8 but that was
so successful with all sort of game that now people want more calibers so they just released some 30 caliber
and 6.5. These are bullets for actual results folks who hunt every other day and use the 6.8 all the time.
I see it more like a tool for getting down game with authority from the AR15.
Because I reload I look at all the aspects of ballistics and I am not restricted by the things only found in factory ammo that
in nys is harder every day anyway. so it is also the reason I got in the 6.5BR. That is a true 6.5mm powerhouse!
Wind is the same both are nice match bullets.
the key is that the 140gr is a hunting bullets and also puts more momentum on the target.
But right now it requires reloading and testing.
IMO a 6.8 is ideal in 18 inches and then look for the top performing bullets.
There is a new bullet called cavity back bullets that are specially designed for the 6.8 but that was
so successful with all sort of game that now people want more calibers so they just released some 30 caliber
and 6.5. These are bullets for actual results folks who hunt every other day and use the 6.8 all the time.
I see it more like a tool for getting down game with authority from the AR15.
Because I reload I look at all the aspects of ballistics and I am not restricted by the things only found in factory ammo that
in nys is harder every day anyway. so it is also the reason I got in the 6.5BR. That is a true 6.5mm powerhouse!
ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
As I said earlier, inch for inch with bullets of similar weight, the 6.8 will generally throw 'em faster. The Grendel has a few bullets with very good BC (.5+). This allows the Grendel to surpass the 6.8 in velocity, energy, wind drift and drop at longer ranges with commercial ammo.
I did a comparison earlier with loads from Hornady - the 6.5 123gr SST vs the 6.8 120gr SST and compensated the listed data to 20" barrels in both (25fps per inch). The 6.8 has more energy over the first 100 yards and more velocity out to 150 yards. The drop is the same for the two rounds out past 300 yards and the 6.5 drop at 500 yards (56.1") is only 2" less than the 6.8.
I personally think that bullet selection tips the scales for the 6.8. There are reliable, proven hog and deer killing bullets for the 6.8 at 90, 95, 100, 105, 110, 115 and 120gr weights. All of these, except the 105, can be had in commercial ammo (though a lot of it might be difficult to obtain in NY). Several weights have more than one bullet type available in commercial ammo. That selection of reliable killers just doesn't exist for the Grendel. If you're hunting with a 6.8 you have legitimate choices for copper solid, bonded lead, cup and core lead, light and fast or heavy and slow depending on your task and/or preference.
In 18" or less barrels out to 300 yards, 6.8 is generally better. It is the better carbine round.
I did a comparison earlier with loads from Hornady - the 6.5 123gr SST vs the 6.8 120gr SST and compensated the listed data to 20" barrels in both (25fps per inch). The 6.8 has more energy over the first 100 yards and more velocity out to 150 yards. The drop is the same for the two rounds out past 300 yards and the 6.5 drop at 500 yards (56.1") is only 2" less than the 6.8.
I personally think that bullet selection tips the scales for the 6.8. There are reliable, proven hog and deer killing bullets for the 6.8 at 90, 95, 100, 105, 110, 115 and 120gr weights. All of these, except the 105, can be had in commercial ammo (though a lot of it might be difficult to obtain in NY). Several weights have more than one bullet type available in commercial ammo. That selection of reliable killers just doesn't exist for the Grendel. If you're hunting with a 6.8 you have legitimate choices for copper solid, bonded lead, cup and core lead, light and fast or heavy and slow depending on your task and/or preference.
In 18" or less barrels out to 300 yards, 6.8 is generally better. It is the better carbine round.
FrankenCub
.338 Win Mag
Just gonna watch this thread for now. Been wanting to put together another upper for deer hunting and was originally thinking 6.5G seems I'm always on a tight budget. But I see some interesting options....if I can step away from that damn budget.
Catskillkid
.450/400 Nitro Ex
So for either a 20" or a 22" barrel what do you think would be the best twist rate?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
1:8 or 1:8.5
Catskillkid
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Thanks!
Ok just pick up my NYGF upper and lower today it look very nice. I'll be ordering my part this week. I'm going with the Grendel hunter Barrel, BCG, and gas block and tube. Pictures to come.