Lets talk Red Dots on handguns

[Marine Cpl]

And while this thread is on the subject of red dots, the best weapon light you can use is one that is bright enough to illuminate a target but not so bright that it doesn’t wash out the dot or make the dot harder to see because you just ruined your night vision with the latest candela 15000 lumen 3 lb torchlight that extends 4 inches past your barrel that takes 3 batteries marketed to people who have never trained before.

 

[Marine Cpl]

So in low light you can perfectly identify? You can tell if someone has something in their hands. You can tell if that thing you see in their hands is a knife or just a phone? Darkness only happens in the home? Not outside? Or do you not go outside after dusk?

Missed this one. So when someone forcibly breaks your door or window down in your home, you need to illuminate to see if they have a weapon? You aren’t serious are you? And if you do, it has to be an overpowered torch that’ll compromise your night vision.

And when someone is walking towards you in a parking lot at night, you are going to draw, shine your light on him to see if he has a gun and not a phone in his hand also walking to his car?

You watch too many movies. Maybe after you do see the gun and blast him with your neutered 10 rd Glock 17 that weighs a carried like a brick in your appendix, you can provide first aid with your ankle holstered first aid kit that you admitted to actually wearing here.

 

[MikeyCNY]

I must have subscribed to the wrong thread, I thought this was talking about red dots, not bickering about lights. Two pages since last night??

 

[Will556]

What I find comical is how a discussion of needing light to be able to see in a possible self defense situation turned into this, lol. Not to mention being told how “SWAT” or “ Special Forces” don’t use white light, which is literally the furthest from the truth. Though I will say I’ve never seen any “SWAT” members running a rinky dink TLR-6 on a duty weapon they have. Also, who ever said anything about going out with every member of a patrol with their white lights set to constant on??? NVG’s and IR light/lasers is an entirely different subject so that part of the discussion has nothing to do with this. We were literally talking about anyone as an individual person. I didn’t realize when a situation presents itself at an unknown place or time, we all have an entire team waiting to go on patrol with their white lights constantly on. So you’re going to tell me that you always have plenty of light in your house to do whatever task you need to do, let alone it being a stressful life or death situation? Your electric bill must be real cheap since you don’t have any light switches installed! Maybe you live by yourself and if you see someone in your house, you know they 100% don’t belong there. But the majority of people don’t live alone and would like to make sure that who they are pointing a weapon at isn’t a family member or loved one.

 

[Will556]

I must have subscribed to the wrong thread, I thought this was talking about red dots, not bickering about lights. Two pages since last night??

I literally have no idea how the discussion turned into this...boys will be boys haha.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I must have subscribed to the wrong thread, I thought this was talking about red dots, not bickering about lights. Two pages since last night??

I mean I tried to get it back on track with that Glock 48 post ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Edwardteach72]

And while this thread is on the subject of red dots, the best weapon light you can use is one that is bright enough to illuminate a target but not so bright that it doesn’t wash out the dot or make the dot harder to see because you just ruined your night vision with the latest candela 15000 lumen 3 lb torchlight that extends 4 inches past your barrel that takes 3 batteries marketed to people who have never trained before.

Wait so the x300 washes out the red dot now? Damn man for someone with no hands on experience with I'm guessing either product (I know you don't have experience with a Trijicon RMR atleast) you sure are making a whole hell of a lot of claims

 

[Edwardteach72]

I must have subscribed to the wrong thread, I thought this was talking about red dots, not bickering about lights. Two pages since last night??

I mean I tried to get it back on track with that Glock 48 post ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Speaking of which.. glock 48, with Holosun 507k ringing steel at 100 yards

 

[Will556]

Speaking of which.. glock 48, with Holosun 507k ringing steel at 100 yards

Just watched this a little bit ago. Nice viable option.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Just watched this a little bit ago. Nice viable option.

Especially if you are a "privileged person" or live in a free state and you add the Shield Arms magazines. Now you have a slime line G19 (minus a rail, but as seen in the video there are some lights that can be added) with 15 rounds in a flush fit magazine

That magazine I believe is a plus 4 or 5.. so a Glock 48 with 20 rounds on tap

 

[Will556]

Especially if you are a "privileged person" or live in a free state and you add the Shield Arms magazines. Now you have a slime line G19 (minus a rail, but as seen in the video there are some lights that can be added) with 15 rounds in a flush fit magazine

That magazine I believe is a plus 4 or 5.. so a Glock 48 with 20 rounds on tap

I had been thinking about getting a Glock 43 but with the release of the 48 I’d probably go that route. Especially with the 48 having a slightly shorter overall length than a 19 but still having a slightly longer barrel than a 19 as well. Then you throw in the S15 mag and a 507K and you have a pretty nice setup.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I had been thinking about getting a Glock 43 but with the release of the 48 I’d probably go that route. Especially with the 48 having a slightly shorter overall length than a 19 but still having a slightly longer barrel than a 19 as well. Then you throw in the S15 mag and a 507K and you have a pretty nice setup.

I was originally thinking of picking up a G43 frame when I saw Victory 1st came out with a G43 long slide and barrel (this was just before the G43x and 48 came out)

 

[OnSight Firearms Training]

I had been thinking about getting a Glock 43 but with the release of the 48 I’d probably go that route. Especially with the 48 having a slightly shorter overall length than a 19 but still having a slightly longer barrel than a 19 as well. Then you throw in the S15 mag and a 507K and you have a pretty nice setup.

Keep in mind,..."tiny guns = big problems".
I find 90% of the people that show up to classes with sub compact guns have a hell of a time shooting them accurately. The bigger the gun, the more grip you can get on it, and the more recoil control you will have. The main "excuse" i hear is.... "I need a small gun to conceal when I carry".
I carry a Glock 17 with a Holosun 508T-GR in a Raven Concealment Eidolon AIWB Holster. T-Shirt and shorts or pants. No Issues. It's more about the holster than the gun. I'll take a bigger gun anyday if my life depends on it.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Keep in mind,..."tiny guns = big problems".
I find 90% of the people that show up to classes with sub compact guns have a hell of a time shooting them accurately. The bigger the gun, the more grip you can get on it, and the more recoil control you will have. The main "excuse" i hear is.... "I need a small gun to conceal when I carry".
I carry a Glock 17 with a Holosun 508T-GR in a Raven Concealment Eidolon AIWB Holster. T-Shirt and shorts or pants. No Issues. It's more about the holster than the gun. I'll take a bigger gun anyday if my life depends on it.

When I first started carrying I didnt think I could carry an adult size gun. Picked up a G19 day I got my license. carried it just fine but i had that new owner "omg I'm printing" feeling. I ended up chopping that G19 down to take G26 mags.

Carried just fine, hated trying to get a draw on the gun, fumbled like a MF, and shooting it was meh. Started carrying it with the G19 mags.

Eventually got a CZ P-07 and was carrying that for a while, was even my first dot gun.. then I realized it was essentially the same size as a G17. Ordered a new G19 frame and got my slide milled for my RMR and went back to the 19 as an actual 19, still have the chopped frame if I ever needed it.

Realize i hate the hump on the 19, loved the feel of my G17 so I ordered a G45 frame and tossed my 19 slide on it.

I'm 5' 5" 140lbs and I comfortably carry my G45 every day, with a spare magazine and well shown in the above picture a red dot and x300u. If I ever need my gun which is super rare, I want it to be a fighting gun and give me any advantages I may need at any given time (got the RMR way before holosun stepped up their game with the 407/507 line and now even more so with the 508 and 509

Oh and that is carried in either cargo shorts but mostly jeans and a tshirt, sometimes a hoody. But even my more "slim" fit t-shirts dont give me an issue with carrying a full size gun

 

[Will556]

Keep in mind,..."tiny guns = big problems".
I find 90% of the people that show up to classes with sub compact guns have a hell of a time shooting them accurately. The bigger the gun, the more grip you can get on it, and the more recoil control you will have. The main "excuse" i hear is.... "I need a small gun to conceal when I carry".
I carry a Glock 17 with a Holosun 508T-GR in a Raven Concealment Eidolon AIWB Holster. T-Shirt and shorts or pants. No Issues. It's more about the holster than the gun. I'll take a bigger gun anyday if my life depends on it.

Absolutely agree. My philosophy is to carry the largest gun I can get away with concealing. That’s why I carry my comp’d 19 w/ an RMR and X300U or my 34 w/ 1,000lm TLR-1 HL (slide is already milled, just waiting time get my hands on the 508Tv2) in a Tier 1 Axis Elite. It baffles my mind sometimes when I see someone choose the smallest sub compact they can find chambered in .40!

 

[Will556]

One of my favorite quotes is by Clint Smith, who I think said it best “Carrying a gun is not supposed to be comfortable; it’s supposed to be comforting”. Obviously the more comfortable it is, the easier it is to carry but I’ll take as much of an advantage that I can get if that moment ever does come. Make whatever works for you the best it can be.

 

[Edwardteach72]

One of my favorite quotes is by Clint Smith, who I think said it best “Carrying a gun is not supposed to be comfortable; it’s supposed to be comforting”. Obviously the more comfortable it is, the easier it is to carry but I’ll take as much of an advantage that I can get if that moment ever does come. Make whatever works for you the best it can be.

I just watched a recent video clip of him doing his speech about carrying guns designed for fighting .. cant remember where it was though.. just a quick 30 second or so clip of him going over why to choose a real gun over those baby guns

 

[Phazer]

Iron sights are the AOL INSTALL DISC w/ DIAL UP of the optics world.
Embrace technology.

I just found a "100 hours free" AOL CD ROM in a closet of old stuff. It's still wrapped and unused. Now...just a nice coaster.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Results of a 4 Year Handgun Red Dot Study by Sage Dynamics | Locked Back Training

In short, quality modern red dots are durable, handgun mounted red dots allow the shooter's focal point to remain on target, and handgun mounted red dots drastically improve accuracy.

lockedback.com

***edit*** I believe that article is old, as I know Aaron doesnt recomend the DPP as a duty grade optic. And they dont mention the Holosun line (which the 3 optics Aaron does recomend are in no particular order are Trijicon Holosun and Aimpoint.)

 

[Edwardteach72]

Alright. So in the past (and still in some ways still am) I have been very very critical of the Glock MOS... I believe my usual terms for the MOS is "trash" and generally speaking I stick to that statement.

What makes the MOS trash, well mainly the plates that glock makes and uses.

Reasons the glock plates suck.

1) they are a MIM part (metal injected molding) so they are not as strong as other options such as aluminum.

2) the universal optical cut is large and leaves a fair amount of space infront of and behind the optic. This is an issue because of G-forces and can cause excessive stress on mounting screws (usually causing them to break off and having the optic fly off)

3) speaking of screws, thread engagement, or lack there of, there is next to no thread engagement for the screws that mount the optics to the mounting plate.. add in the amount of force generated from a slide reciprocating well refer to issue #2 above.

So are there any better options (other than getting a non MOS and having it direct milled)

Yes there are 2 options (that I know of) that will turn the MOS from subpar/iffy to a duty grade option

1st option real quick gloss over (not the point of this post) is Agency Arms AOS, this is their multi optic mill they offer and they offer this service for MOS guns as well..

Or for a much more reasonable price (I think like $70 vs the agency milling which can cost about $240) the C&H Precision optics plate.. they have the V3 plates for like $50 or there is the new V4 version..

Here is a good run down on why the C&H plates are such a good option and save the MOS platform from being just a subpar option

 

[Edwardteach72]

Well the cats out of the bag hahaha

I just ordered a Glock 34 Gen 5... I sold my CZ P-07.

The Gen 5 G34 only come in MOS. I could have bought the V3 plate from C&H but the V4 just came out and should be stocked on June 8th, I pre ordered one. The v3 is a quality option for the MOS but the V4 adds a few more features to fix the MOS...

This will be my new carry gun

 

[Edwardteach72]

Well I know preorders are waiting to ship. But looks like it's going to be an awesome option for small/slim guns.

Fuck the shield RMSc and sig romeo line of dots.

If you have a gun milled for those be patient...

 

[togmaster]

I've been waiting for this, actually the 407K, since they announced it was coming out. First they said May then June now they are saying early July. We will see...

 

[Defilade]

 

[Edwardteach72]

Glock MOS to Agency Arms AOS.. (eventually ill have this done)

 

[Xae289]

Speaking of which.. glock 48, with Holosun 507k ringing steel at 100 yards

Glad you pointed me back to this thread. I forgot about this G48 with a red dot mounted. If the MOS isn't worth it and it's better to get it milled anyway, I'd much rather go for a G48 than a 19.

 

[OnSight Firearms Training]

https://oftllc.us/event/precision-red-dot-pistol/

 

[MikeyCNY]

https://oftllc.us/event/precision-red-dot-pistol/

Oooh.. wonder if the P365XL will be a little small for this. 600 rounds! In this ammopocalypse??

Almost 4 hours away though.. (one way)

 

[togmaster]

https://oftllc.us/event/precision-red-dot-pistol/

I'll be there.

 

[OnSight Firearms Training]

I'll be there.

Lookin forward to it. Always a pleasure to have you in class!