New Federal carry ammo

[Marine Cpl]

Not a fan of horniday, critical duty requires a 4" barrel minimum (most people bitch about to big of a gun)

Yeah. I used to think that too until I saw this test out of the Glock 26. Guess the extra half inch makes a difference. I would like to see how the faster 124 gr does. There’s another test with the same result but that tester is annoying.

 

[Podmonkey]

Since I will never own a tiger, let alone a Dragunov, I hope to one day get my hands on a true PSL, and will even be ok with a vepr in x54r

Oh and if only if only there wasnt an import ban on SVT-40s .

Similar concept there was an Egyptian Hakim at the local gun shop 8mm mauser, great condition and second 10rnd magazine 1,000 I wish I could have taken home

The PSL is a mediocre rifle whose only appeal is it's resemblance to the superior Dragunov.
I assume you are fantasizing about post GTFONY purchases, fornthe money you'd spend on one of the recent PSL imports ($1,800ish from Atlantic, $2,300 for the Century imports) you could get a Galil Ace 308 which will shoot a PSL's lights out.
SVTs strike me more as a collector's item, they are somewhat fragile and a little finicky. I don't think I would do high volume shooting with one.
Aside from the Galils the best thing going in a full caliber AK would have been a VEPR.

 

[Edwardteach72]

The PSL is a mediocre rifle whose only appeal is it's resemblance to the superior Dragunov.
I assume you are fantasizing about post GTFONY purchases, fornthe money you'd spend on one of the recent PSL imports ($1,800ish from Atlantic, $2,300 for the Century imports) you could get a Galil Ace 308 which will shoot a PSL's lights out.
SVTs strike me more as a collector's item, they are somewhat fragile and a little finicky. I don't think I would do high volume shooting with one.
Aside from the Galils the best thing going in a full caliber AK would have been a VEPR.

SVT is purely a collection want

 

[ECU Pirates]

Yeah. I used to think that too until I saw this test out of the Glock 26. Guess the extra half inch makes a difference. I would like to see how the faster 124 gr does. There’s another test with the same result but that tester is annoying.

is the gel the proper temp and calibrated?

 

[Marine Cpl]

is the gel the proper temp and calibrated?

I don’t know. Would you like another video?


And this one is from Clear Ballistics Gel. No calibration needed.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I know the newest stuff 124g +p did well

 

[Marine Cpl]

I

I know the newest stuff 124g +p did well

I like that one better than the 135. More consistent.

 

[Podmonkey]

This is all academic anyways as we all know this stuff is the best defensive ammo:



Anyone that says otherwise is a heathen.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I’m a heathen. I don’t like that it only does 12 to 13 inches.

 

[Podmonkey]

I’m a heathen. I don’t like that it only does 12 to 13 inches.

Yes you are. All the tests I have seen demonstrated considerably more pen than that anyway.
To be clear the reason I use the +p is to ensure adequate expansion out of my 3.1" barreled Shield and I go with 124gr over 147gr because the latter shoots low while the former shoots POA on my guns. 9mm 115gr seems to under penetrate in most loads.
I also appreciate the low flash of the HSTs.

 

[Marine Cpl]

All the tests I have seen demonstrated considerably more pen than that anyway.

From a 3 inch barrel.

 

[ECU Pirates]

The Paul Harrell meat target is a better test in my opinion than gel tests. Most high price ammo doesn’t perform better than the Walmart stuff.

 

[Podmonkey]

From a 3 inch barrel.

From a 3 inch barrel.

Interesting. Either one is good though and especially impressive from such a short barrel.
I remain confident in my choice.

 

[Marine Cpl]

The Paul Harrell meat target is a better test in my opinion than gel tests. Most high price ammo doesn’t perform better than the Walmart stuff.

It isn’t consistent. Some cuts of meat are thicker than others. Some have bone and some don’t. Some oranges are bigger than others. Some targets fit more oranges than others causing the bullet to go through more orange skin than the previous target. Some targets depending on the orange placements have gaps that the bullet will go through.

With calibrated gel or always calibrated gel from Clear ballistics, the results are repeatable.

 

[Podmonkey]

It isn’t consistent. Some cuts of meat are thicker than others. Some have bone and some don’t. Some oranges are bigger than others. Some targets fit more oranges than others causing the bullet to go through more orange skin than the previous target. Some targets depending on the orange placements have gaps that the bullet will go through.

With calibrated gel or always calibrated gel from Clear ballistics, the results are repeatable.

This is all true. It's just another data point among other data points. That said Mr. Harrel does take multiple shots into the target in an attempt to average out variables, and it is a far more representative test of actual real life bad guys compared to gel.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Interesting. Either one is good though and especially impressive from such a short barrel.
I remain confident in my choice.

Not knocking you. I just don’t think that penetration is enough in all circumstances. Remember, the Silvertip that failed the FBI did between 10 and 11 inches in calibrated gel. HST’s from short barrels do 12 ro 13. Is it enough? Most likely if you are at 10 ft like these tests are conducted. But what if you are farther than 10 ft in the winter and shoot a big boy like Darth through a car door where it slows down and through an arm wearing a leather jacket?

Not speaking for you but for me, I’d rather have more penetration. Thats why I stick with ball. 22 inches with a 124 gr Nato round. If I had to use a HP, it would be the Critical Duty with 18 inches of penetration like the FBI.

 

[Podmonkey]

Not knocking you. I just don’t think that penetration is enough in all circumstances. Remember, the Silvertip that failed the FBI did between 10 and 11 inches in calibrated gel. HST’s from short barrels do 12 ro 13. Is it enough? Most likely if you are at 10 ft like these tests are conducted. But what if you are farther than 10 ft in the winter through a car door and through an arm wearing a leather jacket?

Not speaking for you but for me, I’d rather have more penetration. Thats why I stick with ball. 22 inches with a 124 gr Nato round.

FBI protocol calls for 12" minimum so yes I am satisfied with 13".
I consider the logic behind that protocol sound as the idea is that 12" of pen will get you to the center of the average human torso from any angle.
Modern militaries have long complained about the ineffectiveness of 9mm ball which ice picks straight through the human body doing very little damage if it does not strike anything vital.
When using a submachine gun to pepper a target with bursts imagine it's less of an issue but in a pistol the consensus seems to be that 9mm ball is inadequate. Brass Fetcher did a comparison that suggests that .45 ACP ball ammunition actually is somewhat effective compared to 9mm BTW. No I can't find the video, I have been searching for months and it seems to be gone, shame that.

 

[Podmonkey]

Also, I don't rely exclusively on gel tests, or tests of any sort to select my defensive/practical ammo. I start with real world use and then cross reference that use with testing. The HST is in use with many departments and agencies and it has garnered an excellent reputation on the streets, testing backs this up.
All the ammo I buy for practical use from the 9mm HST line to 77gr Mk262 to the 62/64gr 223 Gold Dots have been selected due to an abundance of positive real world data.

 

[Edwardteach72]

The Paul Harrell meat target is a better test in my opinion than gel tests. Most high price ammo doesn’t perform better than the Walmart stuff.

Not even a little bit, it's not scientific and not repeatable

 

[Edwardteach72]

Interesting little video showing ballistic gell being shot at 100 yards.

Practical probably not. But if you see the numbers it will show how specific loads while meeting the standards at the fbi protocol of 10' are actually still performing almost identically at 100 yards (I'm looking at you 147g hsts) but while the faster lighter stuff (still good choices) actually lose out at distance even if the performance was just as good or even a bit better at the 10ft mark..

 

[Marine Cpl]

FBI protocol calls for 12" minimum so yes I am satisfied with 13".
I consider the logic behind that protocol sound as the idea is that 12" of pen will get you to the center of the average human torso from any angle.
Modern militaries have long complained about the ineffectiveness of 9mm ball which ice picks straight through the human body doing very little damage if it does not strike anything vital.
When using a submachine gun to pepper a target with bursts imagine it's less of an issue but in a pistol the consensus seems to be that 9mm ball is inadequate. Brass Fetcher did a comparison that suggests that .45 ACP ball ammunition actually is somewhat effective compared to 9mm BTW. No I can't find the video, I have been searching for months and it seems to be gone, shame that.

What kills a person, a piercing through something important or expansion into something not important?

If I shoot 2 identical twins one with a ball round to the heart and the other with a hollow point to the stomach, who will die quicker?

Now reverse it and the heart gets the hollow point and the stomach gets the ball, who will die quicker?

Shot placement is everything. A HP doesn’t kill you more. It only makes the bullet slightly larger increasing the chances of nicking a vital conpared to a complete miss of a vital.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Interesting little video showing ballistic gell being shot at 100 yards.

Practical probably not. But if you see the numbers it will show how specific loads while meeting the standards at the fbi protocol of 10' are actually still performing almost identically at 100 yards (I'm looking at you 147g hsts) but while the faster lighter stuff (still good choices) actually lose out at distance even if the performance was just as good or even a bit better at the 10ft mark..

Good test. So maybe heavier is better out of a shorter barrel?

 

[Marine Cpl]

FBI protocol calls for 12" minimum so yes I am satisfied with 13".
I consider the logic behind that protocol sound as the idea is that 12" of pen will get you to the center of the average human torso from any angle.
Modern militaries have long complained about the ineffectiveness of 9mm ball which ice picks straight through the human body doing very little damage if it does not strike anything vital.
When using a submachine gun to pepper a target with bursts imagine it's less of an issue but in a pistol the consensus seems to be that 9mm ball is inadequate. Brass Fetcher did a comparison that suggests that .45 ACP ball ammunition actually is somewhat effective compared to 9mm BTW. No I can't find the video, I have been searching for months and it seems to be gone, shame that.

I agree with you. Real world testing is real world testing. It works most of the time. But there are times it doesn’t and doesn’t penetrate enough. Look at this fat fuck. I don’t know what the load was but I was able to google that the department uses .40 S&W. He took multiple shots to his fat chest. It wasn’t until he got shot in the leg that he went down. Then he got peppered with more shots.


Seven of the officers then fired at least 69 shots at Watson, striking him multiple times. The officers told investigators that they feared Watson was wearing body armor due to the fact that he appeared to have sustained several gunshot wounds but was still standing. The officers said they continued to fire at Watson until they determined he was no longer a threat.

 

[Podmonkey]

I gotta get to work now. I'll get back with y'all 'round midnightish.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Good test. So maybe heavier is better out of a shorter barrel?

I'm running 147g hst. I wish gold dots were avail around my area. And I wish I had the video Aaron Cowen did on his carry loads.

He uses gold dots and cant remember if its 124 or 147 standard or +p

But while his word isnt law I trust him based on how data driven he is and how he talks about all the barriers he shoots with those loads and how he runs classes specifically based around shooting through barriers and chose whatever gold dots based on the countless amount of rounds he has shot and watched be shot and the data he has collected along with others

 

[Darth]

Not knocking you. I just don’t think that penetration is enough in all circumstances. Remember, the Silvertip that failed the FBI did between 10 and 11 inches in calibrated gel. HST’s from short barrels do 12 ro 13. Is it enough? Most likely if you are at 10 ft like these tests are conducted. But what if you are farther than 10 ft in the winter and shoot a big boy like Darth through a car door where it slows down and through an arm wearing a leather jacket?

Not speaking for you but for me, I’d rather have more penetration. Thats why I stick with ball. 22 inches with a 124 gr Nato round. If I had to use a HP, it would be the Critical Duty with 18 inches of penetration like the FBI.

Tag me next time. Kthxbai.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Not even a little bit, it's not scientific and not repeatable

It’s a way better representation of how a bullet will perform on a living target. Most YouTube gel tests are far from scientific by the way.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It’s a way better representation of how a bullet will perform on a living target. Most YouTube gel tests are far from scientific by the way.

No because a human doesn’t have bare meat with no skin and oranges inside. I think you are misunderstanding what the purpose of gel is. It isn’t to see what a bullet will do in a body. It's to see how much it penetrates so that it can be compared to others in the same repeatable medium.

When gel was created bullets were fired into animals. If X bullet reached vitals consistently in an animal it was later fired into gel. The penetration depth was measured in gel and later determined that 12 inches in gel is enough to penetrate in a real body. So now Y bullet has to penetrate 12 inches. If it doesn’t than it'sno good. If it penetrates more than it’s better than the previous X bullet.

All gel is is a consistent medium. Nothing more. It wasn’t designed to tell what it would do in a body one for one.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Here is the thing. A dense piece of mass, let's say metal, let's call it a bullet does what it does in a body and what it does is the same thing it has done for hundreds of years, and we know exactly how metal at a given speed will interact on a human body because well there have been more than a few people that have been shot with guns.


What needs to be tested, and replicated by a standard, is how a combination of metal and powder will penetrate.. will that companies combination be consistent from one lot to another lot, or even the same box...

Some companies put out "defensive ammo" and in that box of 20 if you shoot all 20 into the same calibrated gel all 20 will behave differently. Or maybe 15 act the same but 5 dont work as designed/advertised.

But another company puts out "defensive ammo" and all 20 in that box are near identical after being shot in calibrated gel... and that test was done in NY, but another person in arizona 4 years later does the same test with the same ammo and what do you know it acts the same way and penetrates the same 13 or 14" every round.

Well we know that the second company is consistent and is always (obviously some make it through that fail)

Now the only thing we need to add is barriers. Because that is what ammo companies are trying to fix the issue of, and by sticking with calibrated gel with a set limits of penetration we can add all kinds of standardized repeatable barriers infront of the gel, shoot them and see how the bullet reacts. And if its still 12" penetration we learned something

 

[Edwardteach72]

Sorry for that probably incoherent rambling. I had a point I wanted to make and i dont think I did it right