New Federal carry ammo

[ECU Pirates]

No because a human doesn’t have bare meat with no skin and oranges inside. I think you are misunderstanding what the purpose of gel is. It isn’t to see what a bullet will do in a body. It's to see how much it penetrates so that it can be compared to others in the same repeatable medium.

When gel was created bullets were fired into animals. If X bullet reached vitals consistently in an animal it was later fired into gel. The penetration depth was measured in gel and later determined that 12 inches in gel is enough to penetrate in a real body. So now Y bullet has to penetrate 12 inches. If it doesn’t than it'sno good. If it penetrates more than it’s better than the previous X bullet.

All gel is is a consistent medium. Nothing more. It wasn’t designed to tell what it would do in a body one for one.

I know exactly what gel is for. I just prefer to see how bullets perform with ribs and skin ect. Again YouTube gel tests are not scientific. Some dude shooting outside with gel blocks of different brands and consistency (at times) and under varying conditions (temp humidity ect) is not scientific. Most of the clowns don’t calibrate. I don’t just trust a manufacturer to say it’s calibrated. Gel tests are fine and all. (Anyone who studies them would know fmj is a terrible choice) in service calibers. I prefer to see more real world tests.

Also gel is supposed to simulate living tissue. Kind of what it would do in human tissue.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I got it. You put a car door or glass in front of the bullet and you still measure it’s penetration in gel. If it does 12 or more, it’s good since we know 12 is the minimum in naked gel. If does 12 in naked gel but less than 12 through a barrier into the gel, then we know the round is no good.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Serious question, does the fbi publish their test results? I doubt it.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I know exactly what gel is for. I just prefer to see how bullets perform with ribs and skin ect. Again YouTube gel tests are not scientific. Some dude shooting outside with gel blocks of different brands and consistency (at times) and under varying conditions (temp humidity ect) is not scientific. Most of the clowns don’t calibrate. I don’t just trust a manufacturer to say it’s calibrated. Gel tests are fine and all. (Anyone who studies them would know fmj is a terrible choice) in service calibers. I prefer to see more real world tests.

Also gel is supposed to simulate living tissue. Kind of what it would do in human tissue.

Clear ballistics is always calibrated even if you melt it down yourself to start over. It’s synthetic based and not animal based that needs the proper temperature. Also in a lot of these tests, you’ll see the BB that is 3 to 4 inches in to measure calibration.

Also if you see multiple testers getting the same results within inches of one another it tells you that the gel was within spec.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Serious question, does the fbi publish their test results? I doubt it.

Don’t think so.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Serious question, does the fbi publish their test results? I doubt it.

Weirdly enough my buddy just filed a foia for their ballistics data

 

[ECU Pirates]

Weirdly enough my buddy just filed a foia for their ballistics data

Ha. I doubt it will work out for him but well done!

 

[ECU Pirates]

Clear ballistics is always calibrated even if you melt it down yourself to start over. It’s synthetic based and not animal based that needs the proper temperature. Also in a lot of these tests, you’ll see the BB that is 3 to 4 inches in to measure calibration.

Also if you see multiple testers getting the same results within inches of one another it tells you that the gel was within spec.

Aren’t you the guy that used to say you only trust a couple of YouTube gel block testers?

 

[Edwardteach72]

Ha. I doubt it will work out for him but well done!

He may be able to get it as he does firearms related media

 

[Podmonkey]

There is a lot to unpack here, as always, and frankly when @Marine Cpl and @Edwardteach72 get into it my ADHD addled attention span can't make it through 1 pages worth so forgive me if say anything that has already been said. You guys are going to have to start posting in an outline format for me to make sense of it.

Anyways, it was asked what counts in terms of bullet lethality. Its simple- Blood loss.
Blood loss leading to a drop in blood pressure which leads to unconsciousness, cardiac arrest and then brain death. The faster this happens the more lethal the bullet is said to be. A .22 LR that punches through your hand doing little damage but causing a subsequent infection leading to death weeks later is still quite lethal but forna defensive round we want incapacitation as soon as possible. So we need as much blood loss as possible. For underpowered pistol rounds the wounding effect is limited to what tissue the bullet physically touches. One mechanism is the simple displacement of tissue by the projectile so larger diameters generally cause more trauma.
Another mechanism is the cutting action that the rapidly rotating petals impart to the tissue it passes through, fragmentation achieves a similar effect as well. So expanding or fragmenting tissue has an additional mechanism to cause bleeding beyond simple displacement which FMJ pistols rounds only have therefore ball ammo is generally considered to be lacking in terminal effect. Particularly large bullets like that of the 45 ACP can cause a little extra bleeding potential by their displacement factor alone. But it's been demonstrated that a good 9mm hollopoint is more effective than .45 ball.

As for the big fat fuck in the video @Marine Cpl linked to, and has before, we can't really draw good conclusions unless we know what specific ammunition was used and what the exact locations of the hits were. For instance did the bullets expand? Did they strike any vital areas? Did they indeed actually under penetrate?
There is every chance in the world that FMJ would also have failed to stop that man. He may have been an especially resilient person, high on drugs or adrenaline. It is possible for highly motivated people to withstand tremendous trauma and continue on regardless of what they were hit with. Take the incredible case of MSG Roy Benavidez for example:

ROY P. BENAVIDEZ | Medal of Honor

Sometimes the human body, coupled with a determined/altered mind just refuses to go down.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Wait but @Marine Cpl and I didnt get into anything?

 

[Edwardteach72]

There is a lot to unpack here, as always, and frankly when @Marine Cpl and @Edwardteach72 get into it my ADHD addled attention span can't make it through 1 pages worth so forgive me if say anything that has already been said. You guys are going to have to start posting in an outline format for me to make sense of it.

Anyways, it was asked what counts in terms of bullet lethality. Its simple- Blood loss.
Blood loss leading to a drop in blood pressure which leads to unconsciousness, cardiac arrest and then brain death. The faster this happens the more lethal the bullet is said to be. A .22 LR that punches through your hand doing little damage but causing a subsequent infection leading to death weeks later is still quite lethal but forna defensive round we want incapacitation as soon as possible. So we need as much blood loss as possible. For underpowered pistol rounds the wounding effect is limited to what tissue the bullet physically touches. One mechanism is the simple displacement of tissue by the projectile so larger diameters generally cause more trauma.
Another mechanism is the cutting action that the rapidly rotating petals impart to the tissue it passes through, fragmentation achieves a similar effect as well. So expanding or fragmenting tissue has an additional mechanism to cause bleeding beyond simple displacement which FMJ pistols rounds only have therefore ball ammo is generally considered to be lacking in terminal effect. Particularly large bullets like that of the 45 ACP can cause a little extra bleeding potential by their displacement factor alone. But it's been demonstrated that a good 9mm hollopoint is more effective than .45 ball.

As for the big fat fuck in the video @Marine Cpl linked to, and has before, we can't really draw good conclusions unless we know what specific ammunition was used and what the exact locations of the hits were. For instance did the bullets expand? Did they strike any vital areas? Did they indeed actually under penetrate?
There is every chance in the world that FMJ would also have failed to stop that man. He may have been an especially resilient person, high on drugs or adrenaline. It is possible for highly motivated people to withstand tremendous trauma and continue on regardless of what they were hit with. Take the incredible case of MSG Roy Benavidez for example:

ROY P. BENAVIDEZ | Medal of Honor

Sometimes the human body, coupled with a determined/altered mind just refuses to go down.

Juggernaut in the video was on PCP or meth I cant remember

 

[Podmonkey]

To follow up my previous point and to tie back into the original topic, the fragmenting petals of the new Federal round does introduce the potential for increased blood loss but the low mass and borderline penetration of those petals makes it seem a little chancy to me. But maybe not, I just dunno.

 

[Podmonkey]

Wait but @Marine Cpl and I didnt get into anything?

I am very sorry, I love you both (platonically) but when I see the two of you alternate posts back and forth for more than one page I just kinda tune it out. Sorry.

 

[Edwardteach72]

To follow up my previous point and to tie back intonthe original topic, the fragmenting petals of the new Federal round does introduce the potential for increased blood loss but the low mass and borderline penetration of those petals makes it seem a little chancy to me. But maybe not, I just dunno.

No I agree with this.. I was hoping that maybe the pedals penetrated more (I'd even think 10-12" would be nice) and that base was maybe closer to 124g vs the typical .380 weight

 

[Podmonkey]

Juggernaut in the video was on PCP or meth I cant remember

Well there you have it. Such an individual may not show any response to even critical hits until their blood pressure has dropped low enough to start effecting the brain. And that can seem to take a hot minute.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I am very sorry, I love you both (platonically) but when I see the two of you alternate posts back and forth for more than one page I just kinda tune it out. Sorry.

I have come to the decision I am only going to interact with @Marine Cpl if its something we both agree with. As I dont have any against the dude, borderline like the guy but if we dont agee it's not worth it anymore

 

[Podmonkey]

No I agree with this.. I was hoping that maybe the pedals penetrated more (I'd even think 10-12" would be nice) and that base was maybe closer to 124g vs the typical .380 weight

My other concern is the 138gr weight. Most pistols seem to be regulated for lighter projectiles with 147gr often requiring a hold to hit where you want. I don't really like that since in the heat of a defensive shooting that kind of discipline usually goes right out the window.

 

[Podmonkey]

I have come to the decision I am only going to interact with @Marine Cpl if its something we both agree with. As I dont have any against the dude, borderline like the guy but if we dont agee it's not worth it anymore

I'm not saying not to debate but just to make your points then agree to disagree if necessary.
Once you two went on for 3 pages and it devolved into name calling a little bit.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I'm not saying not to debate but just to make your points then agree to disagree if necessary.
Once you two went on for 3 pages and it devolved into name calling a little bit.

Yeah but that's fun

 

[Edwardteach72]

My other concern is the 138gr weight. Most pistols seem to be regulated for lighter projectiles with 147gr often requiring a hold to hit where you want. I don't really like that since in the heat of a defensive shooting that kind of discipline usually goes right out the window.

And this is why I like red dots.. they can be zeroed much better and standard iron sights.. (still know poa/poi for the irons just in case but know they are a separate tool from the dot)

 

[BMF JK]

Pffff Underwood 9mm extreme defender is where it’s at gents .

 

[Podmonkey]

Pffff Underwood 9mm extreme defender is where it’s at gents .

See my previous post. I am not at all convinced that these types of bullets will cause any more trauma than FMJs. They show a tremendous temporary stretch cavity but I am likewise not convinced this actually ruptures tissue. Not with the kind of energy your big 3 pistol rounds have behind them.

 

[Marine Cpl]

@Podmonkey . Blood loss doesn’t kill you now. It kills you later. So in order to kill you know, a vital has to be struck. The only blood loss that kills you now is when a vital artery is struck and even then it’s minutes later. So all that stuff about a bullet expanding and spinning and cutting is hogwash. A bullet doesn’t even spin that fast. It spins at the same rate of a barrel which in a 9mm’s case is 1 full revolution in 10 inches.

Most people stop when shot. Only the extremely determined or drugged up like the guy in the video continue to fight back. So since we do not have an autopsy to study, we can only go by the cop’s words. They thought he was wearing body armor with the amount of rounds that he took. Based on their words alone, one can conclude that the bullets didn’t penetrate enough on his fat chest or they did but no vitals were struck.

Oh. And @Edwardteach72 and I weren’t arguing. I have no issues with him and have no problem disagreeing with him and chatting on here as long as insults aren’t being thrown my way. He hasn’t in a long time and I haven’t as well.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Aren’t you the guy that used to say you only trust a couple of YouTube gel block testers?

No. Never me. I may have said that I trust certain guys but I never said that I distrust others. The only one’s I distrust is luckygunners. All their tests have inflated numbers that no one can seem to replicate. No one can get an HST to penetrate 18 plus inches like they say.

 

[Marine Cpl]

See my previous post. I am not at all convinced that these types of bullets will cause any more trauma than FMJs. They show a tremendous temporary stretch cavity but I am likewise not convinced this actually ruptures tissue. Not with the kind of energy your big 3 pistol rounds have behind them.

Correct. In that same video or the other one Mac shoots a pig. No huge stretch cavity like in gel. In gel people wrongly measure the stretch cavity to see how big it is. They shouldn’t. Gel stretches easier than muscle does. You can rip a chunk of gel out with your fingers with little force. Try that with a body.

Whatever pistol round you use whether hollow or ball, the size of the hole is the size of the bullet itself. It only works differently if using rifle ammo.

 

[Marine Cpl]

My other concern is the 138gr weight. Most pistols seem to be regulated for lighter projectiles with 147gr often requiring a hold to hit where you want. I don't really like that since in the heat of a defensive shooting that kind of discipline usually goes right out the window.

That doesn’t matter in self defense distances. Even at longer distances, we are talking inches at 100 yards.

 

[Podmonkey]

@Podmonkey . Blood loss doesn’t kill you now. It kills you later. So in order to kill you know, a vital has to be struck. The only blood loss that kills you now is when a vital artery is struck and even then it’s minutes later. So all that stuff about a bullet expanding and spinning and cutting is hogwash. A bullet doesn’t even spin that fast. It spins at the same rate of a barrel which in a 9mm’s case is 1 full revolution in 10 inches.

Most people stop when shot. Only the extremely determined or drugged up like the guy in the video continue to fight back. So since we do not have an autopsy to study, we can only go by the cop’s words. They thought he was wearing body armor with the amount of rounds that he took. Based on their words alone, one can conclude that the bullets didn’t penetrate enough on his fat chest or they did but no vitals were struck.

Oh. And @Edwardteach72 and I weren’t arguing. I have no issues with him and have no problem disagreeing with him and chatting on here as long as insults aren’t being thrown my way. He hasn’t in a long time and I haven’t as well.

Bullet RPM Calculator — Spin & Stability within AccurateShooter.com

Using their formula I calculated 82,800 RPM for a 9mm bullet @ 1,150fps from a 1:10 twist which are typical parameters from a Glock 19.
Sounds pretty fast to me.


Now imagine those bullets spinning through your innards with sharp metal edges splayed out.

Blood loss kills you, period. How fast it kills you is just a matter of how badly you are bleeding.
Hollow points and Fragmenting ammunition will make you bleed more than FMJ. Its that simple. The main variable is the penetration. If hollowpoint/ fragment penetration is too shallow then I agree it is less lethal. However FMJ, particularly smaller bullets, don't do much either unless it happens to bisect a major blood vessel. Its about total trauma. We want the maximum amount of trauma in tissue and that means balance wound depth with wound width, we want an ideal middle ground.

 

[Podmonkey]

That doesn’t matter in self defense distances. Even at longer distances, we are talking inches at 100 yards.

In my experience we are potentially talking inches at 10 yards. That is not insignificant.
It may not be a determing factor at close range but I value consistancy.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Massive blood loss in a short period of time equals body going into shock and shutting down.. outside of hitting the brain box or the spinal cord, massive drop in blood pressure is what stop threats