New Federal carry ammo

[Marine Cpl]

Bullet RPM Calculator — Spin & Stability within AccurateShooter.com

Using their formula I calculated 82,800 RPM for a 9mm bullet @ 1,150fps from a 1:10 twist which are typical parameters from a Glock 19.
Sounds pretty fast to me.


Now imagine those bullets spinning through your innards with sharp metal edges splayed out.

Blood loss kills you, period. How fast it kills you is just a matter of how badly you are bleeding.
Hollow points and Fragmenting ammunition will make you bleed more than FMJ. Its that simple. The main variable is the penetration. If hollowpoint/ fragment penetration is too shallow then I agree it is less lethal. However FMJ, particularly smaller bullets, don't do much either unless it happens to bisect a major blood vessel. Its about total trauma. We want the maximum amount of trauma in tissue and that means balance wound depth with wound width, we want an ideal middle ground.

Even if those numbers are correct, l’ll assume that they are for the sake of discussion, tell me why so many people survive getting hit with hollow points. Tell me why the FBI didn’t kill that man in Miami in 1986 when he got hit with multiple winchester silver tips that buzz sawed through. Tell me why when people have accidental discharges they survive the bullet wound to the leg and ass cheek if these buzzsaws cut and spin when entering the flesh.

I’ll tell you why. Because you don’t immediately die from wounds like that. You just bleed. That’s it. Whether the hole is .355 in diameter or .586 in diameter, you just bleed until you bleed out which takes a long time. One isn’t going to make you bleed substantially more to make it an instant or near instant death like a shot to vital organs do.

 

[Marine Cpl]

In my experience we are potentially talking inches at 10 yards. That is not insignificant.
It may not be a determing factor at close range but I value consistancy.

I just went to Federals Ballistics Calculator website. I did a 124 vs a 147. They are dead nuts all the way out to 25 yards within .1 of each other.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Massive blood loss in a short period of time equals body going into shock and shutting down.. outside of hitting the brain box or the spinal cord, massive drop in blood pressure is what stop threats

Massive is the key word there. You can fight for many minutes or even hours with a gun shot to a non vital. Ever wonder why gut shots are said to be the worst. No vital organs there. You can bleed and live for a long time if left for dead there where you sit.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I just went to Federals Ballistics Calculator website. I did a 124 vs a 147. They are dead nuts all the way out to 25 yards within .1 of each other.

That's on paper. Each gun will shoot each ammo differently. You can have a G19 out of the box that just wont shoot 147g for shit at 10 yards, but cloverleaf 124g all day

 

[Edwardteach72]

Massive is the key word there. You can fight for many minutes or even hours with a gun shot to a non vital. Ever wonder why gut shots are said to be the worst. No vital organs there. You can bleed and live for a long time if left for dead there where you sit.

This is why you dont train to put one hole in someone, follow up shots are a thing and should be trained. This is also why training "double taps" is more of a training scar than anything

 

[Marine Cpl]

That's on paper. Each gun will shoot each ammo differently. You can have a G19 out of the box that just wont shoot 147g for shit at 10 yards, but cloverleaf 124g all day

I’m talking about the bullet itself not whether a barrel fails to stabilize a heavier bullet. Most high quality guns can shoot and stabilize a 124 and a 147 no problem. I’m sure your do.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I’m talking about the bullet itself not whether a barrel fails to stabilize a heavier bullet. Most high quality guns can shoot and stabilize a 124 and a 147 no problem. I’m sure your do.

And I'm saying both me and my buddy can have glock 19s and mine might not shoot 147s all that well and his can put them in the same hole all day... each gun is different and some guns shoot certain loads and weights better even compared to the same model

 

[Podmonkey]

Even if those numbers are correct, l’ll assume that they are for the sake of discussion, tell me why so many people survive getting hit with hollow points. Tell me why the FBI didn’t kill that man in Miami in 1986 when he got hit with multiple winchester silver tips that buzz sawed through. Tell me why when people have accidental discharges they survive the bullet wound to the leg and ass cheek if these buzzsaws cut and spin when entering the flesh.

I’ll tell you why. Because you don’t immediately die from wounds like that. You just bleed. That’s it. Whether the hole is .355 in diameter or .586 in diameter, you just bleed until you bleed out which takes a long time. One isn’t going to make you bleed substantially more to make it an instant or near instant death like a shot to vital organs do.

C'mon dude! Don't throw strawman arguments at me.
Why have so many people survived wounds from hollowpoints? Probably because the survival rate for handgun shots collectively is around 70%. Why have so many people survived 9mm FMJ? I'd bet you $1000 that you are way more likely to survive a hit from a 9mm FMJ than a 9mm JHP.

As for the RPM numbers, if you read the article I linked to you will see the equations in there and you can play around with them yourself.
1 rotation in every 10" is quite a rotational speed when your forward velocity is 1150fps. Imagine how fast a 5.56 is spinning through a 1:7 twist at 2650fps! I wonder what the fastest spinning bullet is?

 

[Marine Cpl]

This is why you dont train to put one hole in someone, follow up shots are a thing and should be trained. This is also why training "double taps" is more of a training scar than anything

That’s not my point. My point is that one shot from a hollow point to a non vital compared to another from a solid to a non vital yields the same result. Slow bleeding. Only a shot to a major artery from either gets you that massive blood loss that you gentlemen are speaking of.

 

[Edwardteach72]

C'mon dude! Don't throw strawman arguments at me.
Why have so many people survived wounds from hollowpoints? Probably because the survival rate for handgun shots collectively is around 70%. Why have so many people survived 9mm FMJ? I'd bet you $1000 that you are way more likely to survive a hit from a 9mm FMJ than a 9mm JHP.

As for the RPM numbers, if you read the article I linked to you will see the equations in there and you can play around with them yourself.
1 rotation in every 10" is quite a rotational speed when your forward velocity is 1150fps. Imagine how fast a 5.56 is spinning through a 1:7 twist at 2650fps! I wonder what the fastest spinning bullet is?

 

[Podmonkey]

View attachment 51897

Indeed!
I haven't any idea whatsoever how a person survives a hit to the face with an exploding 7.62x54 bullet. You would think that would be a guaranteed kill shot.

 

[Marine Cpl]

C'mon dude! Don't throw strawman arguments at me.
Why have so many people survived wounds from hollowpoints? Probably because the survival rate for handgun shots collectively is around 70%. Why have so many people survived 9mm FMJ? I'd bet you $1000 that you are way more likely to survive a hit from a 9mm FMJ than a 9mm JHP.

As for the RPM numbers, if you read the article I linked to you will see the equations in there and you can play around with them yourself.
1 rotation in every 10" is quite a rotational speed when your forward velocity is 1150fps. Imagine how fast a 5.56 is spinning through a 1:7 twist at 2650fps! I wonder what the fastest spinning bullet is?

It’s not a straw man argument at all. You said it yourself. Handguns suck. I agree. Only those that get hit in something important are the ones that die immediately or almost immediately. Everything else is just bleeding. Not immediate. That’s my point. A hollow point to a non vital isn’t going to quicken that to the point where one can say, “ You see. If I would have used a hollow point in that dude’s stomach, he’d be dead already in seconds compared to minutes later with a ball round.” It just doesn’t work that way. If it did, people would die immediately from birdshot loads that destroys a lot of tissue compared to a pistol round that penetrates deeply. That shallow birdshot wound bleeds a hell of a lot from way more tissue damage than a .355 hole but we all know it isn’t enough to instant kill someone assuming all the shot is in a non vital area.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Indeed!
I haven't any idea whatsoever how a person survives a hit to the face with an exploding 7.62x54 bullet. You would think that would be a guaranteed kill shot.

Simo Häyhä is not human plain and simple hahhaha

 

[Marine Cpl]

And I'm saying both me and my buddy can have glock 19s and mine might not shoot 147s all that well and his can put them in the same hole all day... each gun is different and some guns shoot certain loads and weights better even compared to the same model

But that wasn’t the argument. The argument was that their was a substantial poi shift with a 124 vs a 147. I have shot my PCC at 100 with both and the difference was negligible. Inches.

 

[Edwardteach72]

It’s not a straw man argument at all. You said it yourself. Handguns suck. I agree. Only those that get hit in something important are the ones that die immediately or almost immediately. Everything else is just bleeding. Not immediate. That’s my point. A hollow point to a non vital isn’t going to quicken that to the point where one can say, “ You see. If I would have used a hollow point in that dude’s stomach, he’d be dead already in seconds compared to minutes later with a ball round.” It just doesn’t work that way. If it did, people would die immediately from a birdshot load that destroyed a lot of tissue compared to a pistol round that penetrated deeply.

No but a hollow point increases odds of hitting something important, and if it doesn't it still creates a larger hole.

If you had the choice A or B. Option A stays the same size option B gets slightly bigger

Both miss vitals I'll still take option B because it left a slightly larger hole

 

[Podmonkey]

It’s not a straw man argument at all. You said it yourself. Handguns suck. I agree. Only those that get hit in something important are the ones that die immediately or almost immediately. Everything else is just bleeding. Not immediate. That’s my point. A hollow point to a non vital isn’t going to quicken that to the point where one can say, “ You see. If I would have used a hollow point in that dude’s stomach, he’d be dead already in seconds compared to minutes later with a ball round.” It just doesn’t work that way. If it did, people would die immediately from a birdshot load that destroyed a lot of tissue compared to a pistol round that penetrated deeply.

I disagree with your assertion. I am saying a hollowpoint is more likely to cause a greater amount of trauma (bleeding) than an FMJ of the same caliber and that this will lead to a greater chance of lethality and over a shorter period of time. There are no absolutes, as
@Edwardteach72 pointed out in his Simo post and terminal ballistics as a whole are somewhat random.

I have said my peace and made my points and I decline to debate the matter further.

 

[Edwardteach72]

But that wasn’t the argument. The argument was that their was a substantial poi shift with a 124 vs a 147. I have shot my PCC at 100 with both and the difference was negligible. Inches.

Most companies zero their guns at the factory with 124g at 15 or 25 yards, there would be a difference

 

[Edwardteach72]

And I'm just now getting home from work so I may or may not pop back in from time to time

 

[Podmonkey]

And I'm just now getting home from work so I may or may not pop back in from time to time

I am having a non lunch. I am going to have to start bringing a snack or a sandwich along, I am starving! But I don't have enough time on my clock to get to a place with food!

 

[Edwardteach72]

I am having a non lunch. I am going to have to start bringing a snack or a sandwich along, I am starving! But I don't have enough time on my clock to get to a place with food!

I just started carrying a backpack to work and now will be starting to bring lunchbagain

 

[Marine Cpl]

No but a hollow point increases odds of hitting something important, and if it doesn't it still creates a larger hole.

If you had the choice A or B. Option A stays the same size option B gets slightly bigger

Both miss vitals I'll still take option B because it left a slightly larger hole

That’s the only benefit. A nick with a hollow point on something important is a miss with a solid.

But then you have the other argument. A miss due to under penetration with a hollow point is a hit with a solid.

It goes both ways.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I disagree with your assertion. I am saying a hollowpoint is more likely to cause a greater amount of trauma (bleeding) than an FMJ of the same caliber and that this will lead to a greater chance of lethality and over a shorter period of time. There are no absolutes, as
@Edwardteach72 pointed out in his Simo post and terminal ballistics as a whole are somewhat random.

I have said my peace and made my points and I decline to debate the matter further.

If that greater lethality is within seconds compared to minutes when someone is shooting at you, your point would have merit. But that isn’t the case. We are talking many minutes here if not hours in some cases.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Most companies zero their guns at the factory with 124g at 15 or 25 yards, there would be a difference

Even then the numbers are close. Points of an inch from one another. Look it up.

 

[Edwardteach72]

That’s the only benefit. A nick with a hollow point on something important is a miss with a solid.

But then you have the other argument. A miss due to under penetration with a hollow point is a hit with a solid.

It goes both ways.

This is why finding a solid preforming hollowpoint is a good thing

 

[Edwardteach72]

And HST and Gold Dots (and a select few others) do a good job with that balancing act

 

[Marine Cpl]

This is why finding a solid preforming hollowpoint is a good thing

I agree. So does the FBI. That’s why they are seeking something that penetrates further than 12. Unfortunately there isn’t technology yet that achieves that with service calibers yet. So you are left with big expansion and shallow penetration or minimal expansion and more penetration. They chose the latter with the critical duty that only expands a little. About the only hollow points today that both expand and penetrate a massive amount is chambered in the big bore revolvers.

 

[Marine Cpl]

And HST and Gold Dots (and a select few others) do a good job with that balancing act

I wouldn’t say 12 inches is a good balance. They work in most cases but not all. It’s the absolute minimum and that’s what most of these loads do. 13 inches sometimes. To me, the Critical Duties show balance. 18 inches of penetration expanded to .45 something compared to 12 or 13 .5 inches expanded to .60 something.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I wouldn’t say 12 inches is a good balance. They work in most cases but not all. It’s the absolute minimum and that’s what most of these loads do. 13 inches sometimes. To me, the Critical Duties show balance. 18 inches of penetration expanded to .45 something compared to 12 or 13 .5 inches expanded to .60 something.

Hst will penetrate mid 13 to 14 inches sometimes more. Gold dots will be closer to 16 iirc And both perform well against all the barriers that the fbi tests against

 

[Edwardteach72]

 

[Marine Cpl]

Hst will penetrate mid 13 to 14 inches sometimes more. Gold dots will be closer to 16 iirc And both perform well against all the barriers that the fbi tests against

Short barrel.