Open Carry (security vs. us)

[Criticalt]

There is no extra section written anywhere that says open carry is allowed when working security. It is just done. There is no law saying OC when hunting is legal. It is done however. Also anyone can take the security classes. You don’t have to be hired by anyone first. You can get your “armed guard card” without being affiliated with anyone. All the class is is a test on A35 and qualifying with a target. You have to hit 70% of 250 shots at 25 yards.

We are also overlooking my points that jail guards and probation workers etc have the same wording in their license yet open carry. More evidence.

If the legislature wanted open carry to be illegal they would have put it in writing and into the law. They didn’t. They are silent on it. At the time of the CC law, open carry was the normal way for legal people to carry. CC was considered dangerous and that is what was regulated with this law.

If we forget everything we think we know and break down the wording it is simple. To have and to carry concealed. If you possess a gun in plain view you have it. If you cover it up on your person you are carrying it concealed. The word “and” grants an additional allowance. It is in addition to having. Otherwise is could just say to carry concealed as you obviously cannot carry something you do not have or own. It also could have said to only carry concealed. Or must be concealed. It does not however.

I agree thats how it should be, so try it. Start open carrying and see if you get harassed. I seriously dont know.
And, to become a security guard in NYS is more involved than what you posted.
Its multiple classes with X amount of hours and continued yearly training.
Im too lazy to go back and look but I believe you have to be hired by a company before you can get the certificate.
Maybe ill go look.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You cannot ignore one part of 400 and try to change the meanings of another part of the same law. Have and Possess are two different things. 400 2 A provides that proof. Therefore you cannot say in 400 2 F that Have just means to possess. It has been established in written law that they are different. If they were the same then in 400 2 A it would not say "have and possess". It would just say have OR possess. Not both.


My license is the same language as others who OC. Jail guards security armored cars. They all say have AND carry concealed. They carry openly and do not exercise the other additional permission of "AND concealed". You cannot move further until you overcome that by a written law distinguishing the difference. Please cite the exact text in NY law. Otherwise you are pissing into the wind. I will need to see the words openly carried in an exemption for certain types of employment or you are done and your rambling will be ignored.

Have doesn’t mean carry. You aren’t making any sense.

Let’s break this down Barney style for you.

Is possession illegal unless licensed? Yes or no.

If you are carrying it, are you possessing it? Yes or no.

If you have a gun in your safe, are you carrying it or possessing it?

What does your license say exactly? To have and carry concealed or to have and carry concealed and or openly?

What does have mean? To carry or to possess?

 

[Chevusa]

I agree thats how it should be, so try it. Start open carrying and see if you get harassed. I seriously dont know.
And, to become a security guard in NYS is more involved than what you posted.
Its multiple classes with X amount of hours and continued yearly training.
Im too lazy to go back and look but I believe you have to be hired by a company before you can get the certificate.
Maybe ill go look.

Nope. I know for a fact. I am going to work personal protective services for a friends company. I need an 8 hour course. That makes you an NY Guard. "Guard Card". There is no employment requirement or sponsorship. You can in fact start working a job right away while you send off your certificate and wait for the "Guard Card" from the state.

Step 2 is a 47 hour course to become an "Armed Guard". This is also open to the public and anyone can take it. Says so right on the website. Anyone who wants to take a police style class in shooting and A35 may attend. There is a written and shooting test. You must pass both. You then send the certificate into NY and get an "Armed Guard Card". Any ongoing yearly refreshers are moot in this conversation. They do not unlock more abilities.

At the end of the day the license is all the same as far as the pistol goes. You must have a pistol permit to attend the shooting class. The class itself offers no pistol carrying abilities.

 

[Chevusa]

Have doesn’t mean carry. You aren’t making any sense.

Let’s break this down Barney style for you.

Is possession illegal unless licensed? Yes or no.

If you are carrying it, are you possessing it? Yes or no.

If you have a gun in your safe, are you carrying it or possessing it?

What does your license say exactly? To have and carry concealed or to have and carry concealed and or openly?

What does have mean? To carry or to possess?

You have failed to answer and post exact law text and therefore I am unable to continue this with you. Be well.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You have failed to answer and post exact law text and therefore I am unable to continue this with you. Be well.

So you quit hey? No haha emoji? What wouldn’t you like me to post? Looks like the failure is one who cannot read and answer simple questions.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Good luck on your Armed Guard endeavors. You cannot be a cop which you so desperately want so at least this can strike your ego a little.

 

[Chevusa]

Good luck on your Armed Guard endeavors. You cannot be a cop which you so desperately want so at least this can strike your ego a little.

I could be a cop if I wanted. I don't want to take a pay cut though. I like my 6 figure income. Bye now! Enjoy the train.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I could be a cop if I wanted. I don't want to take a pay cut though. I like my 6 figure income. Bye now! Enjoy the train.

So that’s why you need to do the armed guard thing. You are like a kid looking to do something cool. It all makes sense now. When you get your uniform, don’t spend too much time in front of the mirror.

 

[Xae289]

I wonder if there's any case law that shows someone otherwise licensed caught up printing or openly carrying in NY. I would be curious to see what crime that person was charged with.

I currently agree with Marine Cpl in that the law as written seems to me to outlaw all carry except licensed, concealed carry, meanwhile everyone just looks the other way in the face of armed security guards and hunters despite what they're doing actually being illegal. I'll look for a relevant case, but I doubt I'll find anything. If I do, I'll follow up and post it.

 

[Chevusa]

So that’s why you need to do the armed guard thing. You are like a kid looking to do something cool. It all makes sense now. When you get your uniform, don’t spend too much time in front of the mirror.

What a cuck fool you are. My friend owns the company and they get great gig's. They have Trump affiliated gigs. Boy I wish I could upload the pics. Pretty amazing. Helping a good friend in my spare time, getting paid good, and getting to rub elbows with some great people. Stick to your train nonsense. You'll be alright!

 

[Chevusa]

I wonder if there's any case law that shows someone otherwise licensed caught up printing or openly carrying in NY. I would be curious to see what crime that person was charged with.

I currently agree with Marine Cpl in that the law as written seems to me to outlaw all carry except licensed, concealed carry, meanwhile everyone just looks the other way in the face of armed security guards and hunters despite what they're doing actually being illegal. I'll look for a relevant case, but I doubt I'll find anything. If I do, I'll follow up and post it.

The words "Printing" and "Open carry" exist nowhere in NY law and therefore have no definitions of such.

 

[nortatoga]

What a cuck fool you are. My friend owns the company and they get great gig's. They have Trump affiliated gigs. Boy I wish I could upload the pics. Pretty amazing. Helping a good friend in my spare time, getting paid good, and getting to rub elbows with some great people. Stick to your train nonsense. You'll be alright!

I wonder if the Secret Service monitors sites like this for unstable people??

 

[Marine Cpl]

What a cuck fool you are. My friend owns the company and they get great gig's. They have Trump affiliated gigs. Boy I wish I could upload the pics. Pretty amazing. Helping a good friend in my spare time, getting paid good, and getting to rub elbows with some great people. Stick to your train nonsense. You'll be alright!

Do you even know what cuck means? You are using it out of context. Anyway, it’s evident why you want to do it. Any chance to open carry, you try to do so and then you come on here to brag about it. Since you for some reason can’t do it here in NYS even though it’s legal like you say, you print on purpose so that others still know you have a gun. You aren’t fooling anyone.

 

[Chevusa]

Do you even know what cuck means? You are using it out of context. Anyway, it’s evident why you want to do it. Any chance to open carry, you try to do so and then you come on here to brag about it. Since you for some reason can’t do it here in NYS even though it’s legal like you say, you print on purpose so that others still know you have a gun. You aren’t fooling anyone.

cuck
/kək/
noun
1. a weak or servile man

You are a gun cuck. Scared and afraid. You proclaim 2A ALL THE WAY then when it comes time for action you shit your pants and run and hide!

*Cover it quick! Someone might get mad!*

Sorry little cuck. Walking on eggshells every day going to and from a worthless job. SAD!

 

[Jchrisls]

I can't believe I read 7 pages of this.

 

[nortatoga]

I can't believe I read 7 pages of this.

You're new here huh LOL!!!

 

[Marine Cpl]

cuck
/kək/
noun
1. a weak or servile man

You are a gun cuck. Scared and afraid. You proclaim 2A ALL THE WAY then when it comes time for action you shit your pants and run and hide!

*Cover it quick! Someone might get mad!*

Sorry little cuck. Walking on eggshells every day going to and from a worthless job. SAD!

Can you give examples of your allegations?

Here are mine to you. A servile man. You are a cuck because you support king’s men in stripping your freedoms. Time and time again in every thread you support excessive force, forced entry into one’s homes, ect for crimes that aren’t supposed to be crimes.

 

[Xae289]

The words "Printing" and "Open carry" exist nowhere in NY law and therefore have no definitions of such.

In my search, I found some free legal advice from actual attorneys. I'm sure they've taken all relevant laws into account before publishing this advice since any errors in their interpretation could open them up to liability.

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www.nyccriminallawyers.com

Now as for my non-lawyer opinion, NYPL Article 265.01-b makes possession of any firearm a Class E felony. A "firearm" is defined under 265.00 (2)(a) partially as "any pistol or revolver; ". In my opinion, that by default outlaws ALL possession by default. However, when you apply for and receive a license under NYPL Article 400.00 (2), Article 400 now covers you and overrides Article 265 in the specific circumstances that your license covers. I, personally, am licensed under Article 400 (2)(f), so I can "have and carry concealed [a firearm]". Unless I'm missing another relevant law, if I were to carry in a manner other than concealed, I'd no longer be protected by my license issued under Article 400 and would be open to prosecution under Article 265. The law does not define "open carry" or "printing" because it doesn't have to. All possession of a firearm is made illegal by Article 265, with the only exemptions relying on a license issued under Article 400. Now, I don't see any exemptions for hunting in Article 400 nor for armed security. So yes, I think it's probably technically illegal to open carry in public places unless preempted by a different law I'm not familiar with that specifically permits it. If no such laws preempting Article 265's blanket ban on all possession of a firearm, in those specific situations, exist, then I think it's technically a Class E felony that just never gets enforced because enforcing it would make no sense.

 

[Celt]

I have the same class as pretty much everyone else who OC’s. To have AND to carry concealed. And is in addition to. Tell the probation officers and jail guards to conceal. The legal language is exactly the same.

I find you line of thinking on this topic interesting, although in regards to corrections, etc, they are classified as peace officers, iirc, so they are different than us 2nd class citizens.

 

[Chevusa]

I find you line of thinking on this topic interesting, although in regards to corrections, etc, they are classified as peace officers, iirc, so they are different than us 2nd class citizens.

Read their classification as peace officers. I quoted it here. It clearly says that while they are peace officers they are still subject to PL 400.
they are peace officers and in the same paragraph it says the following.
"provided, however, that nothing in this subdivision shall be deemed to authorize such employee to carry, possess, repair or dispose of a firearm unless the appropriate license therefor has been issued pursuant to section 400.00 of the penal law ."

 

[Chevusa]

In my search, I found some free legal advice from actual attorneys. I'm sure they've taken all relevant laws into account before publishing this advice since any errors in their interpretation could open them up to liability.

Don't be so sure. These websites are not personally written by lawyers and do not constitute legal advice. I have even seen on website that says NY does not require a pistol license if the gun is possessed in the home. We know this to be absolutely false but they still say it on their website. They misunderstood the section of NY law that says a loaded gun in the home isn't an automatic felony but ignored that it still is a 4th degree criminal possession crime.

Unless I'm missing another relevant law, if I were to carry in a manner other than concealed, I'd no longer be protected by my license issued under Article 400

Not true. You missed the first part of the license. The "To Have" part. Once a license is issued you cannot be charged with 265. Period. Says so in black and white.

The law does not define "open carry" or "printing" because it doesn't have to. All possession of a firearm is made illegal by Article 265, with the only exemptions relying on a license issued under Article 400.

So you assert that printing is a violation of 265? Not a chance. If something is not explicitly forbidden in law and clearly defined it is legal and non enforceable.

You can't charge someone for felony drugs because it looks like "a lot". The law says it must weigh ___ ounces. It is precisely defined. It's not make it up as you go.

 

[Xae289]

Don't be so sure. These websites are not personally written by lawyers and do not constitute legal advice. I have even seen on website that says NY does not require a pistol license if the gun is possessed in the home. We know this to be absolutely false but they still say it on their website. They misunderstood the section of NY law that says a loaded gun in the home isn't an automatic felony but ignored that it still is a 4th degree criminal possession crime.

Not true. You missed the first part of the license. The "To Have" part. Once a license is issued you cannot be charged with 265. Period. Says so in black and white.

So you assert that printing is a violation of 265? Not a chance. If something is not explicitly forbidden in law and clearly defined it is legal and non enforceable.

You can't charge someone for felony drugs because it looks like "a lot". The law says it must weigh ___ ounces. It is precisely defined. It's not make it up as you go.

Working backwards – I didn't assert anything about printing. I honestly doubt printing can get you in much legal trouble as long as you're obviously making an effort to conceal it. I can imagine printing badly enough that a cop could argue it's no longer concealed, but it doesn't seem to me like it's something that happens in the real world. I just wondered if there's case law about that or open carry.

As far as "to have", that's where I disagree with you. I think that even if you had a license under 400(2)(f), if you were open carrying in public, you could still be charged under Article 265.01-b because 400 protects you in the case of "having" or "carrying concealed". What does it mean to "have"? Does the definition of "having" include carrying openly? I don't think so. In this context, I can confidently say that I don't know what the law means when it says "to have". However, I don't think it encompasses open carry for this reason: I think the fact that (2)(f) specifies "carry concealed" is meant to explicitly outline the only way you're allowed to carry to not violate 265. By comparison, 400(2)(g) permits you to "have, possess, collect and carry antique pistols which are defined as follows:". In the case of antique pistols, it seems to me that open carry would be legal because it just says "carry" with no specification as to the manner of carrying like you have in (2)(f).

Edit: and if these aren't violations of 265, it would be a violation of whatever law you would be violating when you violate the provisions of 400.

As to the website, fair enough. Maybe for curiosity's sake we could all pool some cash and hire some lawyers to answer our obscure legal questions with a professional opinion. I'd throw $20 into the pool. Twenty more guys throw in 20, and we could maybe get a lawyer to have a paralegal look into it for an hour and have him spend 15 minutes shooting us an e-mail with the paralegal's findings.

 

[BDinPutnam]

"Trump affliated gigs".

 

[Chevusa]

I think that even if you had a license under 400(2)(f), if you were open carrying in public, you could still be charged under Article 265.01-b

Totally incorrect. Look up exemptions in 265. Anyone with a license is exempt from 265. Period. It may not be charged in any way shape or form. The license under 400 makes 265 moot.

What does it mean to "have"? Does the definition of "having" include carrying openly? I don't think so.

Well "to have" cannot just mean to own, because 400 2 A says so. It lists "to have" and "to possess" separately, therefore they do not mean the same thing.

think the fact that (2)(f) specifies "carry concealed" is meant to explicitly outline the only way you're allowed to carry

You left out the first part of the law. The first part is "To have". The second part is additional. It says AND.... It allows for an additional permission which was historically outlawed (OC was not) and it was the dangerous type of carry.

As to the website, fair enough. Maybe for curiosity's sake we could all pool some cash and hire some lawyers to answer our obscure legal questions with a professional opinion.

I'm not so concerned with one persons opinion. I am more concerned with what the DA, Judge, AG say. They are calling the shots.

I earlier said the ultimate would be to ask your own Judge and see what he says. He is the one that issued and can take away the license.

We have seen here where I posted court letters stating pistols may be carried open or concealed. The evidence keeps adding up that it is not illegal.

 

[Chevusa]

"Trump affliated gigs".

Not everyone gets SS you dummy.

 

[Chevusa]

 

[Marine Cpl]

If I cannot be a cop, I’ll be a secret service agent for Trump.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Not everyone gets SS you dummy.

Thats not what I was laughing at.

 

[Chevusa]

Thats not what I was laughing at.

okayyyyyyyy. night.

 

[Marine Cpl]

View attachment 83715

I stand corrected. That gives you permission right there to open carry. It says so in clear English on the 4th paragraph.