Open Carry (security vs. us)

[spat]

Funny. Every lawyer says differently than Spat. All of them. Every lawyer the NRA hired to build their website that has every state’s laws says and says whether a license is needed to do X says different. You will not find one lawyer that says that the open carry of handguns is legal in NY.

Now back to your ridiculous notion that carry isn’t illegal without a license. If not illegal, then why the license to carry concealed? You wouldn’t need it right? All you would need is a license to have. A Premises license would be sufficient right? Because possession is the only thing you need an exemption from.

And while we are at it, read Penal law 400. They make clear distinctions between the 2 words carry and possession in multiple places of the whole law. I spelled it out for you in previous threads but as usual you forgot.

Here’s just one paragraph of many that makes clear distinctions between carry and possess.

8. License:  exhibition and display.  Every licensee while carrying a pistol or revolver shall have on his or her person a license to carry the same.  Every person licensed to possess a pistol or revolver on particular premises shall have the license for the same on such premises.

Now come next month when this clown brings up another open carry thread, in will come Spat to say the same exact thing.

Carry is possession. You cannot carry without possessing.

Not all possession is carry. The gun in my safe is possessed, but it is not carried.

So, you've personally spoken to *all* the lawyers ? That must have cost a pretty penny.

Also, can you explain why I'm not violating the law with the guns sitting in my safe right now? I am not carrying them concealed, but I do possess them.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Carry is possession. You cannot carry without possessing.

Not all possession is carry. The gun in my safe is possessed, but it is not carried.

So, you've personally spoken to *all* the lawyers ? That must have cost a pretty penny.

Also, can you explain why I'm not violating the law with the guns sitting in my safe right now? I am not carrying them concealed, but I do possess them.

No. I haven’t spoken to all lawyers. But a google search of what’s out there written by lawyers says the opposite of what you say and the fact that it isn’t a thing in public, well... That speaks volumes.

As far a carry and possession, your license gives you the possession in your safe part with the phrase “To have” and finally the carry part with “Carry concealed”. Two totally different things and written as such in the law multiple times. It’s a given that you can do both while having it on your hip.

 

[spat]

No. I haven’t spoken to all lawyers. But a google search of what’s out there written by lawyers says the opposite of what you say and the fact that it isn’t a thing in public, well... That speaks volumes.

As far a carry and possession, your license gives you the possession in your safe part with the phrase “To have” and finally the carry part with “Carry concealed”. Two totally different things and written as such in the law multiple times. It’s a given that you can do both while having it on your hip.

But you still haven't explained why "carry" is illegal if not concealed. What do they charge you with ? The only thing prohibited is possession. There is no "carrying" charge anywhere in NYS law.

Every lawyer who recommends against OC in NY does so because they know you will get hassled and charged with something *other* than possession, like disturbing the peace or something.

Also, you are likely to piss off your licensing officer who will revoke your license.

But you *still* won't get charged criminally for a violation of PL265 or PL400.

 

[Criticalt]

Good thread, chev. Scanned real quick. Looks like still nobody has found where in the law security guards are actually allowed to open carry?

Thats not true.
Its really easy.
If I get a regular drivers licence I can drive cars, pu trucks.....
IfcI want to drive a Semi, I need a special license given by the state and show special training to get the license. Its the same license with different permissions.
You can get your NYS PP like everyone else.
Then you can get special training and the state gives you special permissions to carry open while at work.
Its all plainly pointed out in my previous posts.
The reason there is no specific wording is because once you have the training and permissions, you can carry any way you want to according to your job specifications.......open carry while guarding money......consealed while guarding a wedding.
This is not difficult.
It says right in the info I posted from NYS. The security guard certification is an "upgrade" from the regular PP offered after X amount of training.
They dont need to say open vs consealed because its common knowledge that guards carry open in many situations.
Do cops need super special NYS secret open carry licenses?? No
They have permissions given to them for their jobs due to taining and necessity.

 

[Criticalt]

You cannot just go and get a security guard job today and start carrying openly.
You must get your pistol permit, then get the training mandated by the state for these jobs.
Generally you get the training after you get hired by the security company.

 

[Criticalt]

I believe these laws are poorly written and should be gone.....but
The very LEAST the state should do is offer this training to everyone.
There are many reasons one may either prefer or need to open carry.
For instance.....
I know a guy who hangs out at a local gun shop.....hes always there.
He is in his mid 60s, is maybe 5'4" and weighs about 450lbs. He is also in a wheelchair.
He has to carry his handgun under a blanket on his lap, he has for years.
According to him, there is no possible way for him to tuck his gun anywhere under his cloths and be expected to draw it. In the colder months he uses a chest holster of sorts under a flannel shirt. But in the warm months he uses the blanket.
Now im sure we could all find ways to conceal a gun on him but he says hes tried everything.
His answer would be to carry his gun openly on his chest. He says thats the only way he can quickly draw his weapon.
Im sure there are alot of people in his shoes who open carry might be best.

 

[Calculon]

This is an interesting discussion, infighting aside. If we accept NYS Penal law as the baseline vs other sources (eg NY unSAFE act website has info not contained in law) then why accept the common understanding that open carry is prohibited when it’s not specifically called out in the law?

I think it’s a fair question that @spat and @Chevusa are raising. Even though security guards get extra mandatory training, if the law doesn’t say “no open carry unless you have mandated security training “ then why do we accept it as legal just because it’s commonplace?

I’m no expert here and have no plans to walk down Main Street open carrying but I think the questions are valid.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Does part of this have to do with the fact that i.e. Brinks guys may have to walk into a bank with a firearm on them?

 

[Criticalt]

This is an interesting discussion, infighting aside. If we accept NYS Penal law as the baseline vs other sources (eg NY unSAFE act website has info not contained in law) then why accept the common understanding that open carry is prohibited when it’s not specifically called out in the law?

I think it’s a fair question that @spat and @Chevusa are raising. Even though security guards get extra mandatory training, if the law doesn’t say “no open carry unless you have mandated security training “ then why do we accept it as legal just because it’s commonplace?

I’m no expert here and have no plans to walk down Main Street open carrying but I think the questions are valid.

I agree this topic should be covered in the law but this is NYS.
As far as the "why do we accept it as legal?"
There are millions of things that are legal that are not specifically spelled out in the law......most legal things infact.
Nowhere does it say we can carry 11 bullets in our guns, but we can.
There are many licences that require specialized training for extra perks......cops, taxi drivers, nurses, doctors, veterinarians.....
With these "special" licenses there isnt a comprehensive list of legal vs illegal actions. You learn your privileges in the training.
There are hundreds of things you can do with a gun that arent specifically spelled out in the law.
I realize this topic not being covered in the law is ridiculous but here we are.
Security guards can open carry due to their training.
We cannot because the training isnt offered.
Just anothet infringement to add to the list.

 

[Chevusa]

I agree this topic should be covered in the law but this is NYS.
As far as the "why do we accept it as legal?"
There are millions of things that are legal that are not specifically spelled out in the law......most legal things infact.
Nowhere does it say we can carry 11 bullets in our guns, but we can.
There are many licences that require specialized training for extra perks......cops, taxi drivers, nurses, doctors, veterinarians.....
With these "special" licenses there isnt a comprehensive list of legal vs illegal actions. You learn your privileges in the training.
There are hundreds of things you can do with a gun that arent specifically spelled out in the law.
I realize this topic not being covered in the law is ridiculous but here we are.
Security guards can open carry due to their training.
We cannot because the training isnt offered.
Just anothet infringement to add to the list.

There is no extra section written anywhere that says open carry is allowed when working security. It is just done. There is no law saying OC when hunting is legal. It is done however. Also anyone can take the security classes. You don’t have to be hired by anyone first. You can get your “armed guard card” without being affiliated with anyone. All the class is is a test on A35 and qualifying with a target. You have to hit 70% of 250 shots at 25 yards.

We are also overlooking my points that jail guards and probation workers etc have the same wording in their license yet open carry. More evidence.

If the legislature wanted open carry to be illegal they would have put it in writing and into the law. They didn’t. They are silent on it. At the time of the CC law, open carry was the normal way for legal people to carry. CC was considered dangerous and that is what was regulated with this law.

If we forget everything we think we know and break down the wording it is simple. To have and to carry concealed. If you possess a gun in plain view you have it. If you cover it up on your person you are carrying it concealed. The word “and” grants an additional allowance. It is in addition to having. Otherwise is could just say to carry concealed as you obviously cannot carry something you do not have or own. It also could have said to only carry concealed. Or must be concealed. It does not however.

 

[Marine Cpl]

But you still haven't explained why "carry" is illegal if not concealed. What do they charge you with ? The only thing prohibited is possession. There is no "carrying" charge anywhere in NYS law.

Every lawyer who recommends against OC in NY does so because they know you will get hassled and charged with something *other* than possession, like disturbing the peace or something.

Also, you are likely to piss off your licensing officer who will revoke your license.

But you *still* won't get charged criminally for a violation of PL265 or PL400.

They charge you with a misdemeanor. Penal law 400 says that any violation of its provisions is a misdemeanor. I suggest you read it and remember it. It was mentioned in other threads. But you forgot again.

15. Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a class A misdemeanor

17. Applicability of section.  The provisions of article two hundred sixty-five of this chapter relating to illegal possession of a firearm, shall not apply to an offense which also constitutes a violation of this section by a person holding an otherwise valid license under the provisions of this section and such offense shall only be punishable as a class A misdemeanor pursuant to this section.  In addition, the provisions of such article two hundred sixty-five of this chapter shall not apply to the possession of a firearm in a place not authorized by law, by a person who holds an otherwise valid license or possession of a firearm by a person within a one year period after the stated expiration date of an otherwise valid license which has not been previously cancelled or revoked shall only be punishable as a class A misdemeanor pursuant to this section.

 

[nortatoga]

New York Menacing Laws - FindLaw

In many ways, the menacing laws in New York are similar to general assault crimes in other states, in that they involve conduct intended to cause fear in others. New York's laws are also a little more expansive as they can also incorporate certain forms of stalking. Perhaps no place sees the...

statelaws.findlaw.com

2nd Degree Menacing: A person is guilty of 2nd degree menacing when he or she either:

1. Intentionally places or attempts to place another person in reasonable fear of injury or death by displaying a deadly weapon or instrument; or
2. Repeatedly following or engaging in repeated conduct to intentionally place or attempt to place another person in reasonable fear of injury or death; or
3. Commits the crime of menacing in the 3rd degree in violation of a protective or other court order.

 

[Marine Cpl]

They charge you with a misdemeanor. Penal law 400 says that any violation of its provisions is a misdemeanor. I suggest you read it and remember it. It was mentioned in other threads. But you forgot again.

15. Any violation by any person of any provision of this section is a class A misdemeanor

17. Applicability of section.  The provisions of article two hundred sixty-five of this chapter relating to illegal possession of a firearm, shall not apply to an offense which also constitutes a violation of this section by a person holding an otherwise valid license under the provisions of this section and such offense shall only be punishable as a class A misdemeanor pursuant to this section.  In addition, the provisions of such article two hundred sixty-five of this chapter shall not apply to the possession of a firearm in a place not authorized by law, by a person who holds an otherwise valid license or possession of a firearm by a person within a one year period after the stated expiration date of an otherwise valid license which has not been previously cancelled or revoked shall only be punishable as a class A misdemeanor pursuant to this section.

What is so funny about what’s actually written in Penal Law 400?

 

[Chevusa]

New York Menacing Laws - FindLaw

In many ways, the menacing laws in New York are similar to general assault crimes in other states, in that they involve conduct intended to cause fear in others. New York's laws are also a little more expansive as they can also incorporate certain forms of stalking. Perhaps no place sees the...

statelaws.findlaw.com

2nd Degree Menacing: A person is guilty of 2nd degree menacing when he or she either:

1. Intentionally places or attempts to place another person in reasonable fear of injury or death by displaying a deadly weapon or instrument; or
2. Repeatedly following or engaging in repeated conduct to intentionally place or attempt to place another person in reasonable fear of injury or death; or
3. Commits the crime of menacing in the 3rd degree in violation of a protective or other court order.

Whoops! You only highlighted the part you selectively wanted to.

Intentionally places or attempts to place another person in reasonable fear of injury or death

is the part you left out. It is also the most important part. In no way shape or form could you be charged with this unless you are telling people that you’re going to a shoot them.

According to your incorrect argument a police officer could also be charged with this as they are in no way exempt from menacing laws.

A swing and a miss!

 

[Chevusa]

What is so funny about what’s actually written in Penal Law 400?

Open carry would need to be outlawed in writing in the penal law 400 for there to be a violation thereof. There cannot he unwritten violations. That is not how law works. Nowhere does open carry appear in 400 therefore no violation of such.

 

[GOPerfect]

I did not read through the all of this. Have we come up with the answer? Why can Security open carry? What allows them to be able to?

 

[nortatoga]

Whoops! You only highlighted the part you selectively wanted to.

Intentionally places or attempts to place another person in reasonable fear of injury or death

is the part you left out. It is also the most important part. In no way shape or form could you be charged with this unless you are telling people that you’re going to a shoot them.

According to your incorrect argument a police officer could also be charged with this as they are in no way exempt from menacing laws.

A swing and a miss!

I pasted the whole law if you think some other part is important, I didn't hide it did I !

 

[Chevusa]

I did not read through the all of this. Have we come up with the answer? Why can Security open carry? What allows them to be able to?

There is nothing in writing anywhere. What allows them to be able to is the fact that they just do it without a thought or care. Their license is the same as everyone else’s. In fact the language of the licensing law is the same for corrections, wardens etc etc and they also open carry. Have AND carry concealed is the language used for everyone so it would not hold water that I cannot when others can with the same language used for all licenses.

 

[Chevusa]

I pasted the whole law if you think some other part is important, I didn't hide it did I !

No but you highlighted the second limited sentence only. The sentence before was the important one and those actions must occur for the second highlighted area to be valid. Without the first the second does not exist.

 

[nortatoga]

No but you highlighted the second limited sentence only. The sentence before was the important one and those actions must occur for the second highlighted area to be valid. Without the first the second does not exist.

I didn't hide anything again did I ? Do you think your nit picking will hold up in Court?

 

[Chevusa]

I didn't hide anything again did I ? Do you think your nit picking will hold up in Court?

It’s not nitpicking. It is either outlawed and put into writing specifically or it is legal. That is how law works. It is clearly defined. There are no guesses. There are no maybes. It is defined specifically or it is legal.

 

[BDinPutnam]

For a dude who thinks we're a country "literally at war!!!" you sure spend a lot of time and energy arguing and answering your own questions on the Internet.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Open carry would need to be outlawed in writing in the penal law 400 for there to be a violation thereof. There cannot he unwritten violations. That is not how law works. Nowhere does open carry appear in 400 therefore no violation of such.

Incorrect. All possession and carry is outlawed in Penal law 265. Penal law 400 gives you an exemption depending on what class license you have and the class of license you do have is carry concealed.

 

[Chevusa]

Incorrect. All possession and carry is outlawed in Penal law 265. Penal law 400 gives you an exemption depending on what class license you have and the class of license you do have is carry concealed.

I have the same class as pretty much everyone else who OC’s. To have AND to carry concealed. And is in addition to. Tell the probation officers and jail guards to conceal. The legal language is exactly the same.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I have the same class as pretty much everyone else who OC’s. To have AND to carry concealed. And is in addition to. Tell the probation officers and jail guards to conceal. The legal language is exactly the same.

To HAVE means possess. IE Have in car not on your person. Have in home in safe or on night table.

Carry means on your person. And the only exemption you do have is concealed.

And do not mistake non enforcement of OC for guards and hunters as legality. Lots of things aren’t enforced because of poorly written laws. If it were indeed legal, ADA’s and police would officially say so. OC would be a very common thing in public areas. Obviously it is not. Take a wild guess why? Take a wild guess why someone like you who craves attention and wants everyone to know that he has a gun that goes as far as to deliberately print so that people see it, doesn’t do so?

 

[stokes]

You keep referring to "peace officers" as an example.i.e jail guards etc.You say they have the same license as you.Unless a department requires it,peace officers and police dont have carry permits,they are exempt from weapons laws.In fact,when I was hired in '83 I had to surrender my NYC rifle permit and others who had one, had to turn in their pistol licenses.Carry on.

 

[Chevusa]

You keep referring to "peace officers" as an example.i.e jail guards etc.You say they have the same license as you.Unless a department requires it,peace officers and police dont have carry permits,they are exempt from weapons laws.In fact,when I was hired in '83 I had to surrender my NYC rifle permit and others who had one, had to turn in their pistol licenses.Carry on.

Wrong. License type is E. It’s right above F. It clearly lists the professions in plain English. Peace officers are not exempt the way police officers are. You have to dig deep but the law is there. Look up exemptions in 265. It clearly states a license under 400 is needed for peace officers. The language under 400 is the same for E as it is for F. Don’t make statements that you don’t know as absolute fact

 

[Chevusa]

To HAVE means possess. IE Have in car not on your person. Have in home in safe or on night table.

Carry means on your person. And the only exemption you do have is concealed.

And do not mistake non enforcement of OC for guards and hunters as legality. Lots of things aren’t enforced because of poorly written laws. If it were indeed legal, ADA’s and police would officially say so. OC would be a very common thing in public areas. Obviously it is not. Take a wild guess why? Take a wild guess why someone like you who craves attention and wants everyone to know that he has a gun that goes as far as to deliberately print so that people see it, doesn’t do so?

If a pistol is in my possession I have it. If it’s covered up it’s concealed. Two separate things. That is what the word AND means. It is additional.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If a pistol is in my possession I have it. If it’s covered up it’s concealed. Two separate things. That is what the word AND means. It is additional.

No. Possession and carry are 2 different things. Possession alone is having it. Possession on your body is still possessing it as well as carrying it. That’s why if you read Penal law 400, the words aren’t interchangeable. That’s why they are mentioned separately in multiple sentences all over Penal Law 400. There is a clear distinction between the two. That’s why premises licenses only give you an exemption to possess. If open carrying was legal, then anyone with a premises license would be able to OC it. That clearly isn’t the case.

 

[Chevusa]

No. Possession and carry are 2 different things. Possession alone is having it. Possession on your body is still possessing it as well as carrying it. That’s why if you read Penal law 400, the words aren’t interchangeable. That’s why they are mentioned separately in multiple sentences all over Penal Law 400. There is a clear distinction between the two. That’s why premises licenses only give you an exemption to possess. If open carrying was legal, then anyone with a premises license would be able to OC it. That clearly isn’t the case.

Nope. A premises license says to possess in a household specifically.

Edit. Have and possess. If possess was the same as have as you suggest there would be no need to state have and possess for household permit. The have implies to carry at home.