Open Carry (security vs. us)

[Chevusa]

It boils down to basic common sense. If it doesn’t say you must conceal at all times then you can do what you want.

Might you get a few calls from people with hurt feelings? Maybe.

Cops aren’t feelings enforcement officers though. They are law enforcement officers.

Another big part of not having issues is not looking like a slob jackass. Have nice clothes. Good hygiene. A clean shave. A fresh haircut. These things all apply universally in having a good OC experience no matter what state you’re in.

 

[Tisto]

You've resorted to making assumptions of what people who you do not know will do. You and everyone else for that matter has failed to cite the text that says open carry is illegal for Joe blow (except when hunting [LOL]) but legal for security and others. This is not how law works. It must be spelled out exactly. It isn't. What is not illegal is legal. This is the foundation of our laws. A cop cannot just decide he doesn't like something then charge you with a law that does not specifically have a provision defined for exactly what you were doing.

You've used this arguement several times already - that the letter of the law must explicitly define what is ( and therefore is not ) covered by said law.

I hate to break it to you, but that's just not the way laws are written. Laws are written in vague language ALL THE DAMN TIME. Let's take for example, NYSAFE. On this forum alone, there are perhaps hundreds (?) of threads debating the definition of "fixed magazine" or "pistol grip". Those are just two glaring examples of a law written in vague language. The law clearly states that in order for a certain weapon to be "legal" and therefore NYSAFE compliant, it MUST have a "fixed magazine". However, nowhere in the law does it define exactly what a "fixed magazine" is.

I don't disagree with your arguement that since the law does not expressly say that open carry is illegal that it then must be legal, but I also do not see anything that allows for it. If 265 says that "all handguns are illegal", and 400 says "except under these conditions", then why not express that open carry was also allowed in those conditions ?

Strap on your nicest nickel plated Colt Python and smile as you walk down Main St. A couple years and a few appeals later, we will finally know EXACTLY what your license allows you to do.

 

[Criticalt]

Nope. I know for a fact. I am going to work personal protective services for a friends company. I need an 8 hour course. That makes you an NY Guard. "Guard Card". There is no employment requirement or sponsorship. You can in fact start working a job right away while you send off your certificate and wait for the "Guard Card" from the state.

Step 2 is a 47 hour course to become an "Armed Guard". This is also open to the public and anyone can take it. Says so right on the website. Anyone who wants to take a police style class in shooting and A35 may attend. There is a written and shooting test. You must pass both. You then send the certificate into NY and get an "Armed Guard Card". Any ongoing yearly refreshers are moot in this conversation. They do not unlock more abilities.

At the end of the day the license is all the same as far as the pistol goes. You must have a pistol permit to attend the shooting class. The class itself offers no pistol carrying abilities.

Thats exactly what I said, almost word for word.
Im the one who posted all that info remember?
We were talking about ARMED guards, so far more than an 8 hour course.
And NOPE....the 8 hour in service training MUST be done to keep your certificate every year and the 8 hour firearms training MUST be done every year, not an option for either unless exempt because youre a cop or retired cop of not more than 10 years.

 

[Criticalt]

I dont know why im still involved in this dumb assed thread but.....try this.
Tell a 4 year old to draw a picture of an armed guard.
They will draw a guy with a gun on his side....why?
Because even 4 year olds know that armed guards open carry a gun.
Its kinda in the words....ARMED guards.

 

[Criticalt]

Dang, I wanted to start carrying a handgun in an ankle holster but I cannot find any law specifically saying I can, so I guess I cannot.

 

[Chevusa]

You've used this arguement several times already - that the letter of the law must explicitly define what is ( and therefore is not ) covered by said law.

I hate to break it to you, but that's just not the way laws are written. Laws are written in vague language ALL THE DAMN TIME. Let's take for example, NYSAFE. On this forum alone, there are perhaps hundreds (?) of threads debating the definition of "fixed magazine" or "pistol grip". Those are just two glaring examples of a law written in vague language. The law clearly states that in order for a certain weapon to be "legal" and therefore NYSAFE compliant, it MUST have a "fixed magazine". However, nowhere in the law does it define exactly what a "fixed magazine" is.

I don't disagree with your arguement that since the law does not expressly say that open carry is illegal that it then must be legal, but I also do not see anything that allows for it. If 265 says that "all handguns are illegal", and 400 says "except under these conditions", then why not express that open carry was also allowed in those conditions ?

Strap on your nicest nickel plated Colt Python and smile as you walk down Main St. A couple years and a few appeals later, we will finally know EXACTLY what your license allows you to do.

What if the safe act made no mention at all of magazines? Then you’d have a fair comparison.

 

[Chevusa]

Thats exactly what I said, almost word for word.
Im the one who posted all that info remember?
We were talking about ARMED guards, so far more than an 8 hour course.
And NOPE....the 8 hour in service training MUST be done to keep your certificate every year and the 8 hour firearms training MUST be done every year, not an option for either unless exempt because youre a cop or retired cop of not more than 10 years.

The training or recertification he nothing to do with your pistol license. It is an occupational license. They are totally separate things. The guard card doesn’t unlock a new set of laws anymore than a dog catcher or electrician license unlocks new gun laws.

 

[Chevusa]

Dang, I wanted to start carrying a handgun in an ankle holster but I cannot find any law specifically saying I can, so I guess I cannot.

Funny except that just backfired on you. Now you’ve exposed the entire point. You tried to be silly but in doing so realized that the law is silent on it therefore obviously you may do so. Just as it is silent on OC. Nice job.

 

[Chevusa]

I dont know why im still involved in this dumb assed thread but.....try this.
Tell a 4 year old to draw a picture of an armed guard.
They will draw a guy with a gun on his side....why?
Because even 4 year olds know that armed guards open carry a gun.
Its kinda in the words....ARMED guards.

Then ask him to draw a picture of a man that “has” a pistol on him or with him. It will be a visible pistol. This is what “To Have” is in the law.

 

[Criticalt]

Funny except that just backfired on you. Now you’ve exposed the entire point. You tried to be silly but in doing so realized that the law is silent on it therefore obviously you may do so. Just as it is silent on OC. Nice job.

I never said you couldnt open carry in NYS.
Ha!! Backfire!!
There is nithing in the law that specifically says you cannot carry openly. I even sugfested you do it as a social experiment and see what happens. Im sure you would get mixed results.
I told the story here before that a friend of mine was on his motorcycle when a sheriff pulled up beside him at a red light. The sheriff motioned that my friends handgun was showing.
My friend covered his gun with his jacket and apologized to the cop. The cop gave him a smile and a thumbs up.
Not a single word, no pull over, no ticket, no lecture.
I think the point here is the definition of an ARMED guard is a guard who carties a gun.....no mention of how.
Also, in most cases an armed guard is hired as a highly visible deterrent and a visible gun completes the look.
I believe its just common knowledge that an armed guard carries openly.
I sure wouldnt hire an ARMED guard who doesnt appear armed.

 

[Criticalt]

Then ask him to draw a picture of a man that “has” a pistol on him or with him. It will be a visible pistol. This is what “To Have” is in the law.

Where is NYS definition of "to have".

But tell the child to draw a concealed carrier. They will not know what to draw in most cases.
The point is that even a child understands what an ARMED guard is.

 

[nortatoga]

Where is NYS definition of "to have".

But tell the child to draw a concealed carrier. They will not know what to draw in most cases.
The point is that even a child understands what an ARMED guard is.

Not this child!!

 

[Criticalt]

Not this child!!

Now im sorry I never had kids.
I think ill bortow my nieces 4 year old and force him to draw pictures.
Im sure he has heard the term concealed carrier but it would be interesting to see what he would draw.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Now im sorry I never had kids.
I think ill bortow my nieces 4 year old and force him to draw pictures.
Im sure he has heard the term concealed carrier but it would be interesting to see what he would draw.

Probably the Nimitz behind a tree.

 

[Criticalt]

Probably the Nimitz behind a tree.

That would be one hell of a tree!

 

[Chevusa]

I never said you couldnt open carry in NYS.
Ha!! Backfire!!
There is nithing in the law that specifically says you cannot carry openly. I even sugfested you do it as a social experiment and see what happens. Im sure you would get mixed results.
I told the story here before that a friend of mine was on his motorcycle when a sheriff pulled up beside him at a red light. The sheriff motioned that my friends handgun was showing.
My friend covered his gun with his jacket and apologized to the cop. The cop gave him a smile and a thumbs up.
Not a single word, no pull over, no ticket, no lecture.
I think the point here is the definition of an ARMED guard is a guard who carties a gun.....no mention of how.
Also, in most cases an armed guard is hired as a highly visible deterrent and a visible gun completes the look.
I believe its just common knowledge that an armed guard carries openly.
I sure wouldnt hire an ARMED guard who doesnt appear armed.

So an armed guard is a deterrent but an armed citizen OC is not? I know you didn’t say that I am just making the point.

As for armed guards carrying openly, if it was a special set of rules allowing them to do so it would be in writing and there would be guidelines. So either it is legal for them and everyone with a carry license or it is illegal and the legislature fucked up and didn’t include it in writing anywhere. In either case there is nothing to charge someone with. You can’t just make something up.

If the law said you cannot wear blue shirts and someone was wearing a red shirt and you didn’t like it, you couldn’t just charge them with wearing a blue shirt and call it close enough. The facts would not support the charge.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It’s so silly that this guy thinks that “To Have” means to open carry. No definition in any dictionary says that “Have” means carry. You would think that if it meant carry, then when they wrote the law, it would say “To have and have concealed without regard to employment or place of possession.”

Also, if just being able to “Have it” via being licensed through Penal Law 400 meant that you can open carry it, then why would you need to have a license that says to “Carry Concealed”? Concealed carry would be exempted as well to begin with just by being licensed via Penal Law 400 to “Have it” like some here are trying to say. No need for a specific clarification on concealed carry unless there was a law that specifically banned concealed carry.

Obviously that isn’t the case.

 

[Elwood]

 

[spat]

It’s so silly that this guy thinks that “To Have” means to open carry. No definition in any dictionary says that “Have” means carry. You would think that if it meant carry, than when they wrote the law, it would say “To have and have concealed without regard to employment or place of possession.”

If the law said "to have and wear green shirts" would you say it was illegal for a handgun owner to wear any other color shirt ?

 

[Marine Cpl]

If the law said "to have and wear green shirts" would you say it was illegal for a handgun owner to wear any other color shirt ?

If there was another law that said that the possession of shirts was illegal unless exempted, then the answer would be yes.

 

[REF]

I like dogs

 

[Elwood]

I like dogs

 

[stokes]

Mi huevos es muy grande......donde esta la biblioteca

 

[Marine Cpl]

I like guys who fantasize about protecting Trump.

 

[Xae289]

Mi huevos es muy grande......donde esta la biblioteca

He said "my eggs is very big... where is the library?"

 

[Chevusa]

So here's the final nail in the coffin for the people who say OC is not lawful but is magically somehow for armed guards.

"provided, however, that nothing in this subdivision shall be deemed to authorize such guard to carry, possess, repair or dispose of a firearm unless the appropriate license therefor has been issued pursuant to §400.00 of the Penal Law."

Here's everything if you want to search through. It says we all have the same license to possess and carry (type F).

https://www.dos.ny.gov/licensing/lawbooks/PIBailWtchGuard.pdf

 

[byron]

I know when I first got my permit about 50 years ago I open carried most of the time most all my friends did there were no questions as to if it were legal the question just never came up, many times would run into police on the street never did any say anything not even a second look, well except once one did ask me if I had a permit my reply was do you think I'd be dumb enough to carry one out in the open if I didn't, his reply guess not see ya and that was it , but them again back then people weren't scared at the sight of a gun most thought nothing of it. my permit says nothing about concealed.all it says is, licence to carry pistol is hereby granted to

 

[Marine Cpl]

So here's the final nail in the coffin for the people who say OC is not lawful but is magically somehow for armed guards.

"provided, however, that nothing in this subdivision shall be deemed to authorize such guard to carry, possess, repair or dispose of a firearm unless the appropriate license therefor has been issued pursuant to §400.00 of the Penal Law."

Here's everything if you want to search through. It says we all have the same license to possess and carry (type F).

https://www.dos.ny.gov/licensing/lawbooks/PIBailWtchGuard.pdf

Is that penal law 400?

 

[Justincase]

I saw this guy open carrying in Wegman's one time. He had an XD mod .2. Not sure if any departments issue those or not. I paid close attention cuz he just didn't have that cop vibe to him. He didn't carry himself like you typically see cops do. I'm almost certain he was just a regular dude open carrying. Nobody really paid him any attention (even the soccer mom's as far as I could tell) which surprised me.

 

[Chevusa]

I saw this guy open carrying in Wegman's one time. He had an XD mod .2. Not sure if any departments issue those or not. I paid close attention cuz he just didn't have that cop vibe to him. He didn't carry himself like you typically see cops do. I'm almost certain he was just a regular dude open carrying. Nobody really paid him any attention (even the soccer mom's as far as I could tell) which surprised me.

You were probably one of the only ones to notice. People don't even see it.