Pistol lower to Rifle

[Marine Cpl]

I'll try this again.

Suppose I buy this 80 percent lower with no grip and finish it into a rifle. I'd have a compliant rifle with a Mechtech upper. As long as I never turn it into a pistol, I'm good and never have to register it
right?

FULL CONCEAL FC-G17 80% Glock Receiver - The Firearm Blog




For those that don't know, a Mechtech with a standard Glock frame is this.



So whether I build it myself as a rifle from an 80 percent Glock lower or someone from out of state builds one from a regular Glock Frame but fixes the magazine somehow and I find an FFL willing to transfer it, being that they are now rifles, you wouldn't have to register the lower. Right?

 

[fnfalguy]

That is my understanding.

 

[cgrutt]

How do you build that as a rifle without a pistol grip, or is the "grip" a "mag"?

 

[Graptor]

Wouldn't that grip still protrude below the trigger? Or are you planning on pinning the mag?

 

[Uzi]

Don't even try a fixed magazine version. As soon as you get a hang up on that you'll have a dangerous and difficult gun to deal with. Plus loading 9mm rounds from the top might not even be possible let alone time consuming through such a small ejection port on the upper. Your 80% is actually a really good idea though, but like anything new and not being well known be the general public yet (unlike AR setups) you'll be risking thrown up interpretations and from law enforcement by the definition of "pistol grip", especially one that is being extended to a normal length when the magazine is inserted even though it's not part of the frame. It still will be the "pistols grip"... But that's my opinion. It would be cool to see it done though.

 

[cgrutt]

Also will the stock be attached to the lower receiver or is it part of the upper receiver as shown in picture above?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Also will the stock be attached to the lower receiver or is it part of the upper receiver as shown in picture above?

The stock is attached to the upper receiver. If have to replace it with a Magpul fixed stock to be legal.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Don't even try a fixed magazine version. As soon as you get a hang up on that you'll have a dangerous and difficult gun to deal with. Plus loading 9mm rounds from the top might not even be possible let alone time consuming through such a small ejection port on the upper. Your 80% is actually a really good idea though, but like anything new and not being well known be the general public yet (unlike AR setups) you'll be risking thrown up interpretations and from law enforcement by the definition of "pistol grip", especially one that is being extended to a normal length when the magazine is inserted even though it's not part of the frame. It still will be the "pistols grip"... But that's my opinion. It would be cool to see it done though.

I know. I'm against fixed magazines even for AR rifles for the reasons you stated. I've personally had double feeds prior to Unsafe that were only able to be cleared with the magazine removed since they were hung up on top of the feed lips.

This is more of an importation of a receiver without having to register it kind of thing.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Wouldn't that grip still protrude below the trigger? Or are you planning on pinning the mag?

How do you build that as a rifle without a pistol grip, or is the "grip" a "mag"?

There is no grip. The way I see it, it's the same as the AR Spur. It doesn't protrude conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.

The magazine however does but the magazine is not a grip just the same as a mounted flashlight is not a grip on a handguard. It wasn't designed as such.

If I get an AR, Mini 14, ect with a legal 10 round magazine that is long and I hold it from there from within the magazine well, it isn't a forward grip. Right? I think not.

 

[cgrutt]

From link you posted...

Sporting a virtually non-existent grip, the design includes a magazine pouch affixed to the light rail. When drawn, the pistol is deployed by inserting the magazine into the magazine well, thereby creating a grip.

(emphasis added). But hey, if it's not a grip it's not a grip, right? Good luck!

 

[Marine Cpl]

From link you posted...

(emphasis added). But hey, if it's not a grip it's not a grip, right? Good luck!

I get what you are saying. I believe it to not be but anyway. It's just an idea.

How about making a Glock rifle straight pull? Other than removing the recoil spring, is it possible any other way?

I have this idea too.



The point is regardless if it works or not is the ability to legally have a lower that doesn't need registration that can be stashed somewhere.

 

[cgrutt]

Interesting idea but why not just go with an AR lower with a compliant stock (or a compliant rifle such as a mini 14, etc.) and not try and reinvent the wheel?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Interesting idea but why not just go with an AR lower with a compliant stock (or a compliant rifle such as a mini 14, etc.) and not try and reinvent the wheel?

If things ever get bad....IE SHTF, lose pistol permit, confiscations, what have you. I want to have a legal Glock lower that isn't registered that they do not know about just like the rest of America has.

That is why I'm coming up with these ridiculous ideas. I'm a law abiding citizen and cannot risk buying a Glock from the trunk of a car. The only way for me to get one is by legally registering it which defeats the purpose or legally bringing it in as a rifle and keeping it as such until it doesn't matter anymore.

 

[cgrutt]

Got ya.

 

[Gunner57]

"I want to have a legal Glock lower that isn't registered that they do not know about just like the rest of America has."

 

[Marine Cpl]

I don't care. If it's legal they can't say squat. Just like the 10/30 Hexmag. They cannot say squat.

I'll be breaking no laws keeping it as a rifle buried somewhere.

 

[Magnus]

I say if its for a lawless time have at it. Under NY's current draconian laws the receiver is considered to be the actual weapon, so technically you would be in possession of an unregistered pistol. That being said, what you do in your own home should be your business as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

 

[spat]

I say if its for a lawless time have at it. Under NY's current draconian laws the receiver is considered to be the actual weapon, so technically you would be in possession of an unregistered pistol. That being said, what you do in your own home should be your business as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

Is an AR lower an unregistered pistol ? Lots of people make pistols out of them. Why is a glock lower any different ?

 

[Magnus]

Is an AR lower an unregistered pistol ? Lots of people make pistols out of them. Why is a glock lower any different ?

I'm just a man trying to make sense of the laws myself, you'd have to ask the morons that made the laws. In NY you cannot possess a handgun without it being on your permit right? I know this to be true because NY seems to arrest people for having unregistered handguns and such. We don't have that for rifles and shotguns at least anywhere outside the city.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I'm just a man trying to make sense of the laws myself, you'd have to ask the morons that made the laws. In NY you cannot possess a handgun without it being on your permit right? I know this to be true because NY seems to arrest people for having unregistered handguns and such. We don't have that for rifles and shotguns at least anywhere outside the city.

Right. But what we are saying is that the Glock lower is not a handgun. By the ATF and NYS laws of it has a 16 inch barrel and a stock, it is a rifle.

 

[dsdmmat]

Right. But what we are saying is that the Glock lower is not a handgun. By the ATF and NYS laws of it has a 16 inch barrel and a stock, it is a rifle.

A complete Glock receiver is a handgun it leaves the factory designated as a pistol. An 80% receiver is nothing until it is completed. Where you would run into issues is how the state or the ATF classifies this grip-less receiver when it is completed.

I would write the ATF a letter and ask them. If they respond that the receiver once completed and built into a rifle first is a rifle then you have a get out of jail card when and if the state gives you problems.

 

[Marine Cpl]

So the safest route is an 80 percent. That makes sense since it was nothing. Just a piece of plastic.

 

[cgrutt]

IMO ATF would still consider it a pistol that has been converted to a rifle.

[EDIT] But not sure about 80% issue; agree with DSDMMAT safest bet is to get an interpretation from ATF

ATF Rul. 2011-4 The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received requests from individuals to classify pistols that are reconfigured into rifles, for personal use, through the addition of barrels, stocks, and other parts and then returned to a pistol configuration by removal of those components. Specifically, ATF has been asked to determine whether such a pistol, once returned to a pistol configuration from a rifle, becomes a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined under the National Firearms Act (NFA). Some manufacturers produce firearm receivers and attachable component parts that are designed to be assembled into both rifles and pistols. The same receiver can accept an interchangeable shoulder stock or pistol grip, and a long (16 or more inches in length) or short (less than 16 inches) barrel. These components are sold individually, or as unassembled kits. Generally, the kits include a receiver, a pistol grip, a pistol barrel less than 16 inches in length, a shoulder stock, and a rifle barrel 16 inches or more in length. - 2 - Certain parts or parts sets are also designed to allow an individual to convert a pistol into a rifle without removing a barrel or attaching a shoulder stock to the pistol. These parts consist of an outer shell with a shoulder stock into which the pistol may be inserted. When inserted, the pistol fires a projectile through a rifled extension barrel that is 16 inches or more in length, and with an overall length of 26 inches or more. Other parts sets require that certain parts of the pistol, such as the pistol barrel and the slide assembly, be removed from the pistol frame prior to attaching the parts sets. Typically, a separate barrel is sold with the parts set, which is 16 inches or greater in length. The barrel is installed along with an accompanying shoulder stock. The resulting firearm has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an overall length of 26 inches or more. The NFA, Title 26, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 53, requires that persons manufacturing, importing, transferring, or possessing firearms as defined in the NFA comply with the Act’s licensing, registration, and taxation requirements. The NFA defines the term “firearm” at 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) to include “(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;” (“short-barreled rifle”) and “(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length” (“weapon made from a rifle”). The term “rifle” is defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c) and 27 CFR 479.11 as “a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.” Although not defined in the NFA, the term “pistol” is defined by the Act’s implementing regulations, 27 CFR 479.11, as “a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)” (emphasis added).

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

 

[dsdmmat]

So the safest route is an 80 percent. That makes sense since it was nothing. Just a piece of plastic.

Yes anytime you have a serial numbered part you have to find out how it left the factory. AR stripped receivers are classified as other by the ATF, I have never seen a 1911 pistol frame classified as other from the factory or the ATF. So I can imagine the same holds true for a serial numbered glock frame.

 

[dsdmmat]

IMO ATF would still consider it a pistol that has been converted to a rifle.



https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

Not sure that letter would apply to this case. T/C sold kits that could convert their frame from a pistol to a rifle. Therefore it had to be classified as a pistol so it could be legally switched back and forth at will. An 80% receiver is nothing so it can be built into a rifle or a pistol, if it is built as a rifle first it can never legally become a pistol. The best bet would be to write the ATF with a specific question, and include pictures of what you are talking about, then you will have a legal answer from the authority.

 

[cgrutt]

Yeah, I posted before I saw your post on 80% then edited my post to say I agreed with you before seeing your last response, LOL... Bottom line I agree that best course of action is to get a letter ruling from ATF.

 

[Magnus]

Right. But what we are saying is that the Glock lower is not a handgun. By the ATF and NYS laws of it has a 16 inch barrel and a stock, it is a rifle.

I think the problem will be centered around it being detachable. Speaking law, " It has the ability to become a pistol." If it is permanently attached to the upper than yes I would say its a rifle. If not then you have one of them trans-firearms.

 

[dsdmmat]

I think the problem will be centered around it being detachable. Speaking law, " It has the ability to become a pistol." If it is permanently attached to the upper than yes I would say its a rifle. If not then you have one of them trans-firearms.

anything has the ability to become a pistol.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I think the problem will be centered around it being detachable. Speaking law, " It has the ability to become a pistol." If it is permanently attached to the upper than yes I would say its a rifle. If not then you have one of them trans-firearms.

I'm not sure I agree with that. An AR rifle receiver has the ability to become an AR pistol. An AR pistol receiver and an AR rifle receiver are identical. Neither are permanently fused together.

 

[dsdmmat]

You may want to write the firearms goon squad as well to see what they say. The PRNY is FUBAR when it comes to definitions.