"Sandy Hook + freedom of women"

freddy

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The flaw is that we (on the forum debating this) are not women. So we do not see it from the perspective of a woman. This us why it can be difficult for us as men to comprehend. Make no mistake about it, abortion is here to stay. That ship has sailed. There is no going back. Women will never stand for the reversal of Roe vs Wade. We can bicker endlessly. They will not allow it.
 
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freddy

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holdover said:
Yes I get it perfectly , But scince the courts made the decision in roe wade science has changed the reality of when human life begins . the information at that time was incomplete , and so law was passed with incomplete information.

In light of the recent advances in science and the medical field it can be seen that the law was in error.

However, even in that light , The law will never be changed because people find it useful to kill the unborn .
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freddy

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holdover said:
completely irrelevant , slavery was legal too , So was killing Jews in Germany, so was killing Indians in the west,blacks not being allowed to vote or have to sit in the back of the bus
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Sorry, but abortion is here to stay. That ship has sailed. There is no going back. Women will never stand for the reversal of Roe vs Wade. We can bicker endlessly. They will not allow it.
 
spat

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freddy said:
I appreciate an intelligent discussion (in stark contrast to mr holdover) so thank you for that.
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Thanks, I really do think all the laws about abortion are unnecessary. The law just needs to make a clear definition of the beginning of a human life and the rest is already written. I'm not even all that particular about the point they pick, Birth seems as arbitrary as anything else. Viability outside the womb ? maybe, but medical science will soon push that back to conception. First heartbeat ? First sign of brainwaves ? Right now it's effectively first breath of air.
 
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I never said it was going anywhere. I agree it will never go away . to many people find it usefull to kill their unborn
 
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spat said:
Viability outside the womb ? maybe, but medical science will soon push that back to conception. First heartbeat ? First sign of brainwaves ? Right now it's effectively first breath of air.
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Scientifically its not ,leaglly its conception, , its passing through the vagina
 
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freddy

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spat said:
Thanks, I really do think all the laws about abortion are unnecessary. The law just needs to make a clear definition of the beginning of a human life and the rest is already written. I'm not even all that particular about the point they pick, Birth seems as arbitrary as anything else. Viability outside the womb ? maybe, but medical science will soon push that back to conception. First heartbeat ? First sign of brainwaves ? Right now it's effectively first breath of air.
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I do hear what you are saying. But perhaps it does not completely address the viewpoint of the woman.
 
spat

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freddy said:
I do hear what you are saying. But perhaps it does not completely address the viewpoint of the woman.
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Which must be balanced with the viewpoint of the child (once it *is* a child at least).

We have already decided how to balance those viewpoints after birth, not sure why it should be any different before.
 
Defilade

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freddy

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nortatoga said:
View attachment 20760
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Sorry, not a person. Not at all. That is a photo of a fetus. That is not a baby. Two different things. The fetus is a part of the mother until birth. Then and only then is it a baby, and a separate living entity.

Everyone here is ignoring the viewpoint of the woman. They have the right to liberty and the freedom to choose what happens to their own body. If they oppose abortion that is fine of course and they should choose as they see fit. If they want to abort a fetus that is part of their body until birth - they get to decide.

I will wager that gun ownership in the USA is far more tenuous than a womans right to choose what she does with her own body. Let us see what the future holds.
 
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freddy

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Defilade said:
Defending your Masters again. Lol!
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I am simply defending the freedom of women to decide what they do with their own body. You choose to ignore the viewpoint of the woman.

You deny the woman freedom and liberty to do as she wishes with her own body. A fetus is not a living thing, it is a part of the woman. Birth defines the begining of life for mammals.
 
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Robin

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It is not a part of her body, she is hosting an entirely different being. She did not put it there but allowed it to be placed there and has a responsibility for it, and again, why doesn't the party that had an equal part in this have a say, its as much a part of him. If together they decide to terminate their progeny that is between them, not me, not you, not the government. All your are entitled to is to approve, or disapprove. It is not the business and not the right of government to finance its termination with money taken from those who disapprove.
Robin
 
freddy

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Robin said:
It is not a part of her body, she is hosting an entirely different being. She did not put it there but allowed it to be placed there and has a responsibility for it, and again, why doesn't the party that had an equal part in this have a say, its as much a part of him. If together they decide to terminate their progeny that is between them, not me, not you, not the government. All your are entitled to is to approve, or disapprove. It is not the business and not the right of government to finance its termination with money taken from those who disapprove.
Robin
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When the man physically carries the fetus for 4.5 months and suffers through 50% of labor and 50% of birth and 50% of postpartum (depression, weight gain, stretch marks) and 50% of the breast feeding (biting nipples and saggy breasts etc) then, and only then, will it be equal. Not a moment sooner. You are still ignoring the viewpoint of a woman.
 
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freddy

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Robin said:
It is not a part of her body, she is hosting an entirely different being. She did not put it there but allowed it to be placed there and has a responsibility for it, and again, why doesn't the party that had an equal part in this have a say, its as much a part of him. If together they decide to terminate their progeny that is between them, not me, not you, not the government. All your are entitled to is to approve, or disapprove. It is not the business and not the right of government to finance its termination with money taken from those who disapprove.
Robin
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Do you look at a single large oak tree in autumn and think to yourself: "look at the thousands and thousands of oaks"? After all it is bursting with acorns! That oak is hosting thousands of entirely different beings!

I bet you do not!

Until the seed is physically separate and sprouts it is not a different being.
 
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Robin

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I'm not ignoring anything. I'm am being inclusive, both parties. If that is what you believe, fine, you are winning, the new age politically correct world is unrolling before your very doorstep, relax and enjoy your victories. Why do you feel the need to force your convoluted logic on the rest of us and then pay for it to boot.
Robin
 
freddy

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Robin said:
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm am being inclusive, both parties. If that is what you believe, fine, you are winning, the new age politically correct world is unrolling before your very doorstep, relax and enjoy your victories. Why do you feel the need to force your convoluted logic on the rest of us and then pay for it to boot.
Robin
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For the same reason you post your convoluted logic. Nothing wrong with that. We can agree to disagree I should hope.
 
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