"Sandy Hook + freedom of women"

[freddy]

The Court deemed abortion a fundamental right under the United States Constitution, thereby subjecting all laws attempting to restrict it to the standard of strict scrutiny:

"...right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the district court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy."​

Let me translate:

A woman has a fundamental right under the United States Constitution to decide whether or not to terminate her pregnancy.

It is as simple as that.

 

[Robin]

Yeah, the nines made a political decision that has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution, but such is the age we live in where semantics and moral relativism are the new norm.
Robin

 

[Defilade]

Let me translate:

A woman has a fundamental right under the United States Constitution to decide whether or not to terminate her pregnancy.

It is as simple as that.

To say that the fetus is a person if the mother wants it and it's not if she doesn't is not science. It's spin!

 

[freddy]

To say that the fetus is a person if the mother wants it and it's not if she doesn't is not science. It's spin!

That is not what is being said. It is a fetus before birth. Period. And when a baby is born, it is... a baby! Period.

 

[holdover]

Different stages of the same life. If a fungus was found on Mars science would say there is life in space. If a single cell animal were found on the moon, it would be declared as life. Science now recognizes that life starts at the cellular level. Even a virus is recognized as a life form.

 

[freddy]

Different stages of the same life. If a fungus was found on Mars science would say there is life in space. If a single cell animal were found on the moon, it would be declared as life. Science now recognizes that life starts at the cellular level. Even a virus is recognized as a life form.

Good Zeus almighty.

A fungus IS a separate entity. A fungus IS in fact a living thing.

A single cell 'animal' IS a separate entity. A single cell 'animal' IS in fact a living thing.

A fetus is a part of the mother. A fetus is NOT a separate entity. A fetus is in fact NOT a living thing.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Good Zeus almighty.

A fungus IS a separate entity. A living thing

A single cell 'animal' IS a separate entity. A living thing.

A fetus is a part of the mother. A fetus is NOT a separate entity. A fetus is NOT a living thing.

What?

 

[freddy]

Different stages of the same life. If a fungus was found on Mars science would say there is life in space. If a single cell animal were found on the moon, it would be declared as life. Science now recognizes that life starts at the cellular level. Even a virus is recognized as a life form.

What?

In other words, of course scientists would say a fungus or a single cell 'animal' is life. Because those are fully developed for what they are! The fungus will not grow into an elephant. The single cell 'animal' will not grow into a salmon. The fungus and ameoba are not precursors to life. They are life. A fetus is a precursor to life.

 

[Marine Cpl]

In other words, of course scientists would say a fungus or a single cell 'animal' is life. Because those are fully developed for what they are! The fungus will not grow into an elephant. The single cell 'animal' will not grow into a salmon. The fungus and ameoba are not precursors to life. They are life. A fetus is a precursor to life.

So a 6, 7, or 8 month fetus isn't a life even though it can survive outside the womb?

 

[freddy]

So a 6, 7, or 8 month fetus isn't a life even though it can survive outside the womb?

I don't see how that even matters. Though I do see what you mean Will. You cannot claim to love freedom and liberty and then turn around and force someone to do to their body something contrary to their wishes. Forcing a person in that way is attacking their right to freedom and liberty as I see it. The fetus is still a part of the woman until natural childbirth. That truth cannot be escaped.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I don't see how that even matters. Though I do see what you mean Will. You cannot claim to love freedom and liberty and then turn around and force someone to do to their body something contrary to their wishes. Forcing a person in that way is attacking their right to freedom and liberty as I see it. The fetus is still a part of the woman until natural childbirth. That truth cannot be escaped.

Except the fetus isn't her body anymore. It has its own heartbeat, brain function, ect. What about his or her body? Does that baby have the right to choose life? It will choose yes if extracted. It will try to breathe and grasp for air.

You are dead wrong on this. Anything with a heartbeat has life.

 

[spat]

Birth defines the begining of life for mammals.

That is hardly a given, and is the only point if contention that needs to be agreed upon IMHO.

Why is it that you think birth is an appropriate demarcation point for life ?

 

[freddy]

Except the fetus isn't her body anymore. It has its own heartbeat, brain function, ect. What about his or her body? Does that baby have the right to choose life? It will choose yes if extracted. It will try to breathe and grasp for air. You are dead wrong on this. Anything with a heartbeat has life.

The fetus is physically connected to the mother by a massive placenta and cord. All nutrients flow through the mother. Until childbirth the fetus is part of the mother. Ask any mother. Again and again in this thread the womans view is not taken into account.

 

[Marine Cpl]

The fetus is physically connected to the mother by a massive placenta and cord. All nutrients flow through the mother. Until childbirth the fetus is part of the mother. Ask any mother. Again and again in this thread the womans view is not taken into account.

It's 2 lives connected. What is your point. That it isn't a life? If you believe that, you are one sick individual.

 

[freddy]

That is hardly a given, and is the only point if contention that needs to be agreed upon IMHO. Why is it that you think birth is an appropriate demarcation point for life ?

Because birth is real. Birth is when the father cries at the real miracle of life. Birth is when the real labor ends for the mother. Birth is the real jubilation for the parents. Not the 2nd trimester, that is a meaningless number. There is nothing remotely real about week #38. No one celebrates the 8th month. Real is the birth as it has happened for thousands and thousands of years. Natural birth. For humans and for all animals birth is the begining of life. Always has been. Always will be. Birth is real. Only birth can mark the begining of life. Only death can mark the end. There is no ambiguity possible. Birth and death. Precisely the same is true of death - it is real. There is no ambiguity possible here too. Birth is the begining, death is the end. They are real.

A miscarriage is sad and painful. But nobody will compare the pain and sadness of a miscarriage to that of the death of a baby child. Why? Because the baby is real as a function of birth, and vice versa. Not so with a fetus. Birth is what defines the start of life.

 

[freddy]

It's 2 lives connected. What is your point. That it isn't a life? If you believe that, you are one sick individual.

Still ignoring the woman. Again.

Madness is an inexorable trait of humankind. I am sick. And so are you.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Still ignoring the woman. Again.

Madness is an inexorable trait of humankind. I am sick. And so are you.

Looks like you are ignoring the baby.

 

[freddy]

Looks like you are ignoring the baby.

A baby comes from birth, not a moment before. Before birth there is only the woman. You fail to acknowledge this. You are ignoring the woman in your posts.

 

[Airborneguy]

I have no problem “ignoring the woman”. No one has a right to murder. Appealing to identity politics doesn’t change that.

 

[Marine Cpl]

A baby comes from birth, not a moment before. Before birth there is only the woman. You fail to acknowledge this. You are ignoring the woman in your posts.

Incorrect. If pulled out of the wound it lives. At 6 months and above it can survive without the woman.

 

[Darth]

Different stages of the same life. If a fungus was found on Mars science would say there is life in space. If a single cell animal were found on the moon, it would be declared as life. Science now recognizes that life starts at the cellular level. Even a virus is recognized as a life form.

Life != "a person."

 

[ManrisFrack]

Abby and Brittany Hensel - Wikipedia

One person or two?

 

[freddy]

Incorrect. If pulled out of the wound it lives. At 6 months and above it can survive without the woman.

There you go again! Pulling tissue out of a human is ignoring her right to freedom and liberty and privacy. You are denying a basic right. That is her choice and you have no case to interfere with her body by "pulling out of the wound"! If she chooses so be it. But you?

 

[freddy]

Abby and Brittany Hensel - Wikipedia

One person or two?

I am voting 'one person'.

 

[Marine Cpl]

There you go again! Pulling tissue out of a human is ignoring her right to freedom and liberty and privacy. You are denying a basic right. That is her choice and you have no case to interfere with her body by "pulling out of the wound"!

Yeah okay. Do you wear a pussy hat?

 

[freddy]

Yeah okay. Do you wear a pussy hat?

Only when you and I do 69 baby. But you know that.

 

[spat]

Because birth is real. Birth is when the father cries at the real miracle of life. Birth is when the real labor ends for the mother. Birth is the real jubilation for the parents. Not the 2nd trimester, that is a meaningless number. There is nothing remotely real about week #38. No one celebrates the 8th month. Real is the birth as it has happened for thousands and thousands of years. Natural birth. For humans and for all animals birth is the begining of life. Always has been. Always will be. Birth is real. Only birth can mark the begining of life. Only death can mark the end. There is no ambiguity possible. Birth and death. Precisely the same is true of death - it is real. There is no ambiguity possible here too. Birth is the begining, death is the end. They are real.

A miscarriage is sad and painful. But nobody will compare the pain and sadness of a miscarriage to that of the death of a baby child. Why? Because the baby is real as a function of birth, and vice versa. Not so with a fetus. Birth is what defines the start of life.

But medical science could deliver that baby and it could grow into an adult weeks, even months before the natural birth. If it's capable of surviving on it's own, isn't it a human, just trapped inside another human ?

And the law considers it a separate human if a crime is committed that harms it. Can't have that both ways without being a massive hypocrite.

 

[spat]

The fetus is physically connected to the mother by a massive placenta and cord. All nutrients flow through the mother. Until childbirth the fetus is part of the mother. Ask any mother. Again and again in this thread the womans view is not taken into account.

After it's born all nutrients flow through the mother too. Maybe we should allow abortion right up until the child stops breastfeeding. It would certainly eliminate a bunch of crime.....

 

[freddy]

And the law considers it a separate human if a crime is committed that harms it. Can't have that both ways without being a massive hypocrite.

Fetal homicide laws are criminal statutes, Roe v. Wade concerns a constitutional right

 

[freddy]

After it's born all nutrients flow through the mother too. Maybe we should allow abortion right up until the child stops breastfeeding. It would certainly eliminate a bunch of crime.....

No, not all nutrients. No world to see or smell before birth. No parents or siblings to see before birth. Birth is the start. Death is the end.