Schenectady man appeals revocation of permit after losing gun

[Marine Cpl]

I don't think anyone here thinks that the guy should lose his permit for losing the gun. If they do, then they are stupid and don't understand the Constitution.

What most are saying is that the guy is stupid for putting the gun up there in the first place and his punishment should be a knock on his noggin for being stupid.

A gun is valuable. You wouldn't put your wife's 8000 dollar engagement ring up there would you? Or you wouldn't put your pet in a carrier up there either. (Yes. Someone actually did that!) So why would you put your gun up there? That's stupid. Now you may say what if you don't consider your gun valuable? Your freedom in jeopardy if some asshat in black robe takes it away is valuable or the life of someone killed with your gun that you negligently stowed away where it can fall off is valuable.

 

[kev74]

There is no Constitutional Right in NY, as permit holders must jump through the hoops to be "honored" to receive.

IF a banger found that rooftop handgun and did your family harm, at the least, I believe your thinking would change. I treat my handguns as I did my Children: I know where they are, all the time. AND, even if there were no permits, the rooftop owner should be penalized. Just plain @$$ stupid.

The right to bear arms - almost the exact wording as the 2nd amendment - is in the New York state constitution. It just gets trampled on more regularly here.

What makes this guys handgun more inherently dangerous than anything else he might have had secured to the roof of his vehicle? An axe? You can kill people with those. A camp stove with pressurized fuel? You could do some harm with that too.

Don't buy into the anti gunners argument that guns are so much more dangerous than other commonly available household items that they need to be banned and over regulated. Its not true. Before 1968 a 10 year old could make money mowing lawns and walk to the local hardware store and buy himself a gun, and there wasn't blood running down the streets.

 

[nortatoga]

"Having a permit and not knowing what your responsibilities are, is just plain stupid.
People can and do just about everything and then when they make a STUPID mistake; they want sympathy...someone to love and give a warm fuzzy"

I agree people should know their responsibilities. However in REALITY I can tell you with 100% certainty that MANY of these restricted permit holders have no clue that they CAN carry their pistol on them at all times and not leave them in the car even when going to and from the range or hunting. The Judges and the Permit offices should indeed instruct everyone of them. BUT THEY DON'T. SO let's say for argument sake he thought he was not allowed to carry his pistol on him. So what do you suggest he do with it? EVERYDAY I am at the gun shop and I mean EVERY DAY this question is asked and EVERY DAY the gun shop owners instruct the permit holders to CARRY their pistol concealed. EVERY FREAKING DAY THESE PERMIT HOLDERS ARGUE BACK THAT THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TOO>>>>EVERY DAMN DAY

You really need to check you facts!

 

[gqllc007]

You really need to check you facts!

How so? My wife got her permit and there was no mention of the requirements of her restrictions on what she can do and can't do. She learned about what she could do and could not do at the gun shop permit class. Also I am at the gun shop 3-4 x a week and have witnessed this first hand so not sure what you are saying?? So far not one permit holder in last 8 years has walked in saying they know they can carry their pistol on them

 

[VietnamEraVet]

How so? My wife got her permit and there was no mention of the requirements of her restrictions on what she can do and can't do. She learned about what she could do and could not do at the gun shop permit class. Also I am at the gun shop 3-4 x a week and have witnessed this first hand so not sure what you are saying??

Did she get a letter with her permit? And if so, what did it say?

You should keep in mind that advice given in a gun class is just that, and is not legal advice. If you think it is, ask that person to prove that they are an attorney, and for an agreement that they will defend you if the need ever arises...

 

[gqllc007]

Did she get a letter with her permit? And if so, what did it say?

No letter was provided. I was with her. She got a credit card sized plastic permit with restrictions

 

[VietnamEraVet]

No letter was provided. I was with her. She got a credit card sized plastic permit with restrictions

I didn't get a letter either when I picked up my permit card. The letter I am referring to is the one that would have been mailed to your home telling her that her permit was granted, and to come in and pick up the card.

 

[gqllc007]

I didn't get a letter either when I picked up my permit card. The letter I am referring to is the one that would have been mailed to your home telling her that her permit was granted, and to come in and pick up the card.

It just said it was issued with Hunting and Target restrictions. I would love for someone to scan their letter that explains to the permit holder that although their permit is restricted to hunting and target that they must carry it concealed when going to and from the Range or Hunting. I have never seen a letter like that in the Capitol Region. I can then print it out and post it at the LGS

 

[nortatoga]

How so? My wife got her permit and there was no mention of the requirements of her restrictions on what she can do and can't do. She learned about what she could do and could not do at the gun shop permit class. Also I am at the gun shop 3-4 x a week and have witnessed this first hand so not sure what you are saying??

What did the instructors say in the safety class ? The instructors teach what the Judge wants taught! I am an instructor for Saratoga County and I suggest you email or write a letter to the Judge! And not take advice from the the guys at the LGS or the internet! Because they are not going to be there if you or anyone else should find themselves in the spot that this guy is in.

 

[gqllc007]

What did the instructors say in the safety class ? The instructors teach what the Judge wants taught! I am an instructor for Saratoga County and I suggest you email or write a letter to the Judge! And not take advice from the the guys at the LGS or the internet! Because they are not going to be there if you or anyone else should find themselves in the spot that this guy is in.

The instructors all said to not leave it in the car and to carry it concealed. What do you tell your students?

 

[gqllc007]

In Rensselaer County the instructors are telling students to not leave pistols unattended in vehicles. They say that the Permit is for CONCEAL CARRY. The restrictions are just administrative. So if you have to exit your vehicle for any reason while you have your pistol in the vehicle then you have to take it with you and keep it concealed. Either in range bag, purse or holstered regardless of administrative restrictions of hunting and target. IS that not what all of you were informed?

 

[nortatoga]

The instructors all said to not leave it in the car and to carry it concealed. What do you tell your students?

It is not a good idea too! But if you have to it is not against the law! It should be locked an secure and out of sight!

But I would also suggest google some other counties around the area and you will see some Judges do have rules and regulations that applicants need to sign off on!

 

[gqllc007]

It is not a good idea too! But if you have to it is not against the law! It should be locked an secure and out of sight!

But I would also suggest google some other counties around the area and you will see some Judges do have rules and regulations that applicants need to sign off on!

So you are saying that if it is locked and secured in your vehicle say the locking glove box or locking center console and it get's stolen then that is OK? They won't have their permit revoked? That is not what they say in this county. I did just read the laws and it says

Notwithstanding any other provision
of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political
subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping,
or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he
may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry
such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any
ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment
of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the
driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove
compartment or console.

 

[Mr. terzmo]

"Having a permit and not knowing what your responsibilities are, is just plain stupid.
People can and do just about everything and then when they make a STUPID mistake; they want sympathy...someone to love and give a warm fuzzy"

I agree people should know their responsibilities. However in REALITY I can tell you with 100% certainty that MANY of these restricted permit holders have no clue that they CAN carry their pistol on them at all times and not leave them in the car even when going to and from the range or hunting. The Judges and the Permit offices should indeed instruct everyone of them. BUT THEY DON'T. SO let's say for argument sake he thought he was not allowed to carry his pistol on him. So what do you suggest he do with it? EVERYDAY I am at the gun shop and I mean EVERY DAY this question is asked and EVERY DAY the gun shop owners instruct the permit holders to CARRY their pistol concealed. EVERY FREAKING DAY THESE PERMIT HOLDERS ARGUE BACK THAT THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TOO>>>>EVERY DAMN DAY

"not allowed to carry" How did he get it from the place where he bought it ? Was it strapped to the roof also ? IF that person can follow driving rules...then follow gun handling rules. At the least it should of been unloaded and all the ammo left in that back pack ,thus allowing the handgun in the car. Unloaded. With a hunting permit he'd meet full compliance for travel.People can fill out forms...get references.. get trained in gun safety/handling..get fingerprinted..get interviewed and cannot remember a thing after. Again...it's responsibility...

 

[Mr. terzmo]

It wouldn't be my choice, but was it as bad as the guys in Syracuse who put their guns in the back of the pickup with the tailgate down, and discovered them missing when they stopped for lunch later? That happened a couple of years ago as I recall.

Or is it worse than the people who have inadvertently left a firearm in a bathroom?

...and what about the people who have left firearms in unlocked vehicles and the guns were stolen?

Same thing...responsibility is lacking

 

[gqllc007]

"not allowed to carry" How did he get it from the place where he bought it ? Was it strapped to the roof also ? IF that person can follow driving rules...then follow gun handling rules. At the least it should of been unloaded and all the ammo left in that back pack ,thus allowing the handgun in the car. Unloaded. With a hunting permit he'd meet full compliance for travel.People can fill out forms...get references.. get trained in gun safety/handling..get fingerprinted..get interviewed and cannot remember a thing after. Again...it's responsibility...

I understand completely. What I am saying is why then do the majority of the pistol permit holders have no clue? Something is clearly lacking.

 

[Phazer]

Not you're drivers license, but maybe you house as your insurance co. may not cover you when you are sued! Same as if your firearm hurts or kills someone? Just MAYBE ?

BS!

An item that belong(ed) to me that was stolen is no longer in my possession or control. Ergo, anything done with that item is beyond my sphere of influence and I am not culpable for damages done as long as proper precautions were taken subsequent to the loss...like reporting the item (ex/car) stolen.

 

[gqllc007]

"not allowed to carry" How did he get it from the place where he bought it ? Was it strapped to the roof also ? IF that person can follow driving rules...then follow gun handling rules. At the least it should of been unloaded and all the ammo left in that back pack ,thus allowing the handgun in the car. Unloaded. With a hunting permit he'd meet full compliance for travel.People can fill out forms...get references.. get trained in gun safety/handling..get fingerprinted..get interviewed and cannot remember a thing after. Again...it's responsibility...

IN a bag or range bag. I am saying that if you have to stop and get gas or go to the bathroom, etc then it is not wise to leave your pistol in the car. That is not carry concealed. A trunk can get broken into same as the car. Of course a home can as well and pistol should be in a safe at that point but we are talking about in a vehicle.

 

[Phazer]

The right to bear arms - almost the exact wording as the 2nd amendment - is in the New York state constitution. It just gets trampled on more regularly here..

No. The right to keep and bear arms is in the New York Civil Rights code and not the New York constitution. The Civil Rights code article 2 section 4 actually says, "...cannot be infringed."

New York State Civil Rights Law | Article 2 | Bill of Rights

S 4. Right to keep and bear arms. A well regulated militia being
necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to
keep and bear arms cannot be infringed.​

 

[gqllc007]

Can anyone please scan their letter they received stating that they can't carry their pistol and must keep it locked in the car when they have restrictions of hunting and target when going to and from said restrictions.

 

[nortatoga]

Can anyone please scan their letter they received stating that they can't carry their pistol and must keep it locked in the car when they have restrictions of hunting and target when going to and from said restrictions.

You would need this from your County , As they may differ by Judge! So like I said earlier contact the Judge because he or she is the one with the final say!

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

You would need this from your County , As they may differ by Judge! So like I said earlier contact the Judge because he or she is the one with the final say!

This brings up an interesting point. What if one county says you can carry it and another says you can't? What happens when something happens in a county where the opposite rules apply differently than yours? That system is so fubar on so many levels.

 

[Marine Cpl]

This brings up an interesting point. What if one county says you can carry it and another says you can't? What happens when something happens in a county where the opposite rules apply differently than yours? That system is so fubar on so many levels.

The NY Penal Law is the only thing that matters. What your Judge does as far as revocation is on him and only up to him.

 

[Phazer]

Can anyone please scan their letter they received stating that they can't carry their pistol and must keep it locked in the car when they have restrictions of hunting and target when going to and from said restrictions.

From Westchester's Pistol License Handbook (p.24):
http://westchesterclerk.com/images/stories/pdf/Pistol/Pistol License Safety and Information Handbook 01082014.pdf

Regardless of the type of firearm license held, the licensee may legally transport a
firearm between the location where the firearm is kept or stored to/ from any
place where the firearm will be registered, bought, sold or repaired, or to any
place where the licensee will legally use the firearm for familiarization or practice
purposes. Unless the licensee holds a carry license, firearm(s) must be kept
unloaded, in a locked box, with ammunition kept separate from the firearm.

​

Those who state that this is not law are correct. However, this is information upon which licensing judges will make their decisions.

 

[Marine Cpl]

From Westchester's Pistol License Handbook (p.24):
http://westchesterclerk.com/images/stories/pdf/Pistol/Pistol License Safety and Information Handbook 01082014.pdf

Regardless of the type of firearm license held, the licensee may legally transport a
firearm between the location where the firearm is kept or stored to/ from any
place where the firearm will be registered, bought, sold or repaired, or to any
place where the licensee will legally use the firearm for familiarization or practice
purposes. Unless the licensee holds a carry license, firearm(s) must be kept
unloaded, in a locked box, with ammunition kept separate from the firearm.

​

Those who state that this is not law are correct. However, this is information upon which licensing judges will make their decisions.

Actually according to their little pamphlet, you can carry because your license is a carry license as per Penal Law 400.

 

[Phazer]

Actually according to their little pamphlet, you can carry because your license is a carry license as per Penal Law 400.

All licenses are "carry licenses." All of my permit cards state, "The licensee is authorized to possess and carry the following pistols." But...under the picture on the front my license, it states "Target."

 

[Marine Cpl]

All licenses are "carry licenses." All of my permit cards state, "The licensee is authorized to possess and carry the following pistols." But...under the picture on the front my license, it states "Target."

I'm just going by what they are saying on their website or the pamphlet they give you. One can argue that what they are saying applies only to Premise Licenses which are also issued as per Penal Law 400. Those aren't carry licenses.

 

[Marine Cpl]

As far as the word Target, what does that mean? Does it say restrictions and then target? If so your license is saying that it's a carry license that is restricted to target. It's still a carry license.

I know I'm just preaching to the choir but I'm going by their words.

 

[kev74]

No. The right to keep and bear arms is in the New York Civil Rights code and not the New York constitution. The Civil Rights code article 2 section 4 actually says, "...cannot be infringed."

New York State Civil Rights Law | Article 2 | Bill of Rights

S 4. Right to keep and bear arms. A well regulated militia being
necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to
keep and bear arms cannot be infringed.​

Oops. You got me!

 

[nortatoga]

BS!

An item that belong(ed) to me that was stolen is no longer in my possession or control. Ergo, anything done with that item is beyond my sphere of influence and I am not culpable for damages done as long as proper precautions were taken subsequent to the loss...like reporting the item (ex/car) stolen.

Phazer I tried to reply to this earlier, I was thinking along the lines of the keys left in the car not that the car was just unlocked!