Secret Service Dropping .357 Sig

[Edwardteach72]

Oddly enough...

The glock 46 is a G19 size gun (iirc) but with a rotating locking barrel.. german agency asked for and adopted it.

Which just leaves the G44? That we are missing

 

[71velle]

No need. Look up federal hst which is the most popular load ever on YouTube. Nobody has ever been able to get those inflated numbers.

The very first youtube review had very similar results. Not sure if your familiar enough with lucky gunners test. They use 4 layers of cloth in front of the block and as you know the barrier delays expansion and increased penetration.

 

[71velle]

Oddly enough...

The glock 46 is a G19 size gun (iirc) but with a rotating locking barrel.. german agency asked for and adopted it.

Which just leaves the G44? That we are missing

So glock innovates and we dont get to have it.

 

[Edwardteach72]

So glock innovates and we dont get to have it.

Directives drive innovations lol

 

[Marine Cpl]

The very first youtube review had very similar results. Not sure if your familiar enough with lucky gunners test. They use 4 layers of cloth in front of the block and as you know the barrier delays expansion and increased penetration.

This one didn’t.

 

[Edwardteach72]

So glock innovates and we dont get to have it.

Granted rotating barrel glock doesnt offer anything to be worth getting

 

[Podmonkey]

If given the choice I would choose the smaller holes....

The Glock 19 gives 15 rounds vs the Glock 30's 10 rounds. It is easier and faster to get the rounds out of the 19 vs 30. More holes trumps slightly bigger holes I say.

 

[AnthonyC]

Meh. I'll keep my boutique rounds and let the rest of you buy up all the 9mm. Everybody shoots what they like then, huh?…

 

[Edwardteach72]

Weirdly enough I saw some .357sig on the shelf and the "good" self defense rounds were less expensive than 9mm

 

[Podmonkey]

Weirdly enough I saw some .357sig on the shelf and the "good" self defense rounds were less expensive than 9mm

Price tags were misaligned or something.
When I even see it 357 SIG is some of the most expensive stuff on the shelf. I was in Gander a while ago buying a bunch if their really cheap Aguila 9mm. I was checking prices on the other stuff. You had to get to .44 Mag to get higher prices. Even the .357 Mag was cheaper.
9mm is the cheapest centerfire round there is.
.32 ACP is surprisingly expensive.

 

[spat]

I think other than slightly better barrier penetration, the .357 Sig does the same job as the 9mm on a body. Both will penetrate within 12 to 14 inches and both will expand about the same.

You just described all the popular defense calibers with modern ammunition.....


It really is getting to be a "coke or Pepsi" thing, rather than meaningful differences in performance.

 

[71velle]

The Glock 19 gives 15 rounds vs the Glock 30's 10 rounds. It is easier and faster to get the rounds out of the 19 vs 30. More holes trumps slightly bigger holes I say.

If yo do the math 10 rounds of 45 will create more more damage than 15 rounds of 9mm...

 

[togmaster]

Another 2 pages of frying pan discussion and it won't stop here. 9 mm makes tiny holes and 45 kills the soul. Let's leave at that.

 

[spat]

If yo do the math 10 rounds of 45 will create more more damage than 15 rounds of 9mm...

What is the unit of "stopping power" ?

You can't do the math until you can quantify the data.

 

[71velle]

What is the unit of "stopping power" ?

You can't do the math until you can quantify the data.

I am not aware of any units of stopping power, if you can educate me about them I would be happy to do the math.

 

[togmaster]

What is the unit of "stopping power" ?

You can't do the math until you can quantify the data.

Why confuse this discussion with facts?

 

[spat]

I am not aware of any units of stopping power, if you can educate me about them I would be happy to do the math.

That's my point. Nobody can agree with a good method to measure it, so you can't really "do the math".

There are some attempts, like "power factor" but they all boil down to derivatives of energy or momentum and virtually everyone agrees that they are rough approximations at best.

Even eliminating most variables and going with a single gun, bullet construction and caliber, you still can't "prove" whether the heavier slower bullet is better or the lighter faster one, it's all a matter of preference.

 

[BDinPutnam]

This again.

You guys know way more about this than me but-

The gun you shoot well is better than the gun you dont shoot well.

The gun you dont shoot well is better than the gun you dont have.

Some of these cartridges may fill niches that make sense but broadly from an agency perspective, 9mm makes a lot of sense-

Adequate penetration and ballistics
Easier trained to many different body types (small statured females to large framed males)
Relatively cheap to shoot in quantity

But not too many of us are an agency so YMMV. I'd rather shoot and hit with one round of 9mm or .45 (the pistol calibers in my house) than miss six times from a .44 (which I dont have and dont train on hence my choice).

 

[Darth]

What is the unit of "stopping power" ?

You can't do the math until you can quantify the data.

Dogs > Cats.

Do the math .

 

[meketrefe]

The 357 SIG is brutal with 125gr bullets it hits like a 357 magnum.
The secret service can have anything they want and why they went with the sig.
The decission to consolidste with 9mm has nothing to do with just ballistics specially the type of round folks use on average for defense.
The 35 bore is great in many cslibers just because of the huge variety of projectiles.
Speed + firepower might be more important than just power or speed alone for their tactics and with ballistcs vests being more popular and auto glass being harder there is a greatest need for a faster stouter projectile and the 9mm does well here. Modern development in guns, powders and ammo makes the 9mm a top choice. One could argue why not a 9x23 or super for same firepower but logisticslly the 9mm is the service round on Nato and hundreds of agencies around the world.
Ultimatelly online ballistics discussions are pretty fruitless and boring.
The secret service can double tap in the torso and the head and they rarely miss.
Still, keep your SIG and those 125gr hp because is a very powerful round.
Or a 10mm glock that is also a brutal round.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Price tags were misaligned or something.
When I even see it 357 SIG is some of the most expensive stuff on the shelf. I was in Gander a while ago buying a bunch if their really cheap Aguila 9mm. I was checking prices on the other stuff. You had to get to .44 Mag to get higher prices. Even the .357 Mag was cheaper.
9mm is the cheapest centerfire round there is.
.32 ACP is surprisingly expensive.

Saw a box of sig vcrown .357sig that was $3 less than the box of 9mm

 

[Podmonkey]

Saw a box of sig vcrown .357sig that was $3 less than the box of 9mm

What were the prices and where did you see it?
I bet $50 they made a pricing mistake.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Even eliminating most variables and going with a single gun, bullet construction and caliber, you still can't "prove" whether the heavier slower bullet is better or the lighter faster one, it's all a matter of preference.

The 357 SIG is brutal with 125gr bullets it hits like a 357 magnum.

Speed or weight isn’t a factor until after the bullet reaches over 2000 FPS in human tissue. So a faster .357 Sig at only 300 to 400 FPS faster isn’t any more brutal than a projectile going at 300 to 400 FPS slower.

When bullets goes below 2000 FPS, the only damage done is what the bullet itself does when it destroys the tissue in it’s path. When a bullet goes over 2000 FPS like a rifle bullet does, things change. No longer is the bullet itself only destroying the tissue in it’s path. During the bullet strike, the temporary stretch cavity upon impact is so large that it stretches the tissue beyond it’s elasticity until it tears and snaps like a rubber band that’s been stretched until it snaps thus making the hole bigger than the projectile itself.

Under 2000 FPS, the temporary stretch cavity is within limits and it goes back to where the hole is as big as the projectile itself.

This has been proven by Dr Martin Fackler, other trauma surgeons, and the FBI. It’s the reason why a .223 makes a much bigger hole compared to a .45 ACP that’s triple its size.

The reason why a .357 Magnum was so deadly back in the day compared to a 9mm or .38 Special is because the .357 Magnum hollow point actually still penetrated almost twice the distance after expansion then the aforementioned calibers did that only penetrated at 10 to 11 inches when measured in gel. A .357 Magnum hollow point will do about 22 inches in gel after expansion.

Speed at less than 2000 FPS only plays a part in hard barrier penetration. In tissue, it all behaves the same.

 

[Edwardteach72]

What were the prices and where did you see it?
I bet $50 they made a pricing mistake.

Small little local shop
Hell they only had like 4 different 9mm ammo to choose from

 

[Podmonkey]

Speed or weight isn’t a factor until after the bullet reaches over 2000 FPS in human tissue. So a faster .357 Sig at only 300 to 400 FPS faster isn’t any more brutal than a projectile going at 300 to 400 FPS slower.

When bullets goes below 2000 FPS, the only damage done is what the bullet itself does when it destroys the tissue in it’s path. When a bullet goes over 2000 FPS like a rifle bullet does, things change. No longer is the bullet itself only destroying the tissue in it’s path. During the bullet strike, the temporary stretch cavity upon impact is so large that it stretches the tissue beyond it’s elasticity until it tears and snaps like a rubber band that’s been stretched until it snaps thus making the hole bigger than the projectile itself.

Under 2000 FPS, the temporary stretch cavity is within limits and it goes back to where the hole is as big as the projectile itself.

This has been proven by Dr Martin Fackler, other trauma surgeons, and the FBI. It’s the reason why a .223 makes a much bigger hole compared to a .45 ACP that’s triple its size.

The reason why a .357 Magnum was so deadly back in the day compared to a 9mm or .38 Special is because the .357 Magnum hollow point actually still penetrated almost twice the distance after expansion then the aforementioned calibers did that only penetrated at 10 to 11 inches when measured in gel. A .357 Magnum hollow point will do about 22 inches in gel after expansion.

Speed at less than 2000 FPS only plays a part in hard barrier penetration. In tissue, it all behaves the same.

7.5 "Fuck Bruno" Too bad it's a dead cartridge walking, I think it could make a fantastic PDW round. It actually runs along side mid range .41 Magnum loads in terms of energy!

 

[Edwardteach72]

7.5 "Fuck Bruno" Too bad it's a dead cartridge walking, I think it could make a fantastic PDW round. It actually runs along side mid range .41 Magnum loads in terms of energy!

It may have a chance when (I believe this year or early next) they release the polymer version (that will shoot 9mm, 10mm and 7.5) with an MSRP if about 1,500

 

[Marine Cpl]

7.5 "Fuck Bruno" Too bad it's a dead cartridge walking, I think it could make a fantastic PDW round. It actually runs along side mid range .41 Magnum loads in terms of energy!

Had to look that one up. About the closest we have with commercially available ammo is the Xtreme Defender in .357 Sig in 65 gr that goes 2000 FPS from a 4 inch barrel.

 

[Podmonkey]

Had to look that one up. About the closest we have with commercially available ammo is the Xtreme Defender in .357 Sig in 65 gr that goes 2000 FPS from a 4 inch barrel.

At 2000 FPS with a 100gr bullet the energy is listed as 880 ft-lbs while still delivering around 500 ft-lbs at 100 yards. Size is similar to the 5.7x28 but a bit shorter and obviously heavier.
Seems to me it would offer good armor pen with a properly designed bullet but would have greater effect in soft tissue. Might make a great round for a survival/bug out rifle too.

 

[Marine Cpl]

At 2000 FPS with a 100gr bullet the energy is listed as 880 ft-lbs while still delivering around 500 ft-lbs at 100 yards. Size is similar to the 5.7x28 but a bit shorter and obviously heavier.
Seems to me it would offer good armor pen with a properly designed bullet but would have greater effect in soft tissue. Might make a great round for a survival/bug out rifle too.

Yeah. Weight with speed. One package. Add a brace to it and you have a rifle.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Yeah. Weight with speed. One package. Add a brace to it and you have a rifle.

They also offer a brace.

Downside is the gun is massive AF, and expensive AF and the only thing shooting that cartridge right now.