Shooting at Uvalde Texas elementary school

[99cummins]

Has to be an unlawful order.

The order to stand down wasn't unlawful, just immoral and unethical.

You could say the same thing about the order to round up Anne Frank's family.

The question is can you live with yourself if you obey it.

Is there anything about disobeying an order that goes against the oath you took or contradicts the goals or mission of an organization?

 

[Acer-m14]

Is there anything about disobeying an order that goes against the oath you took or contradicts the goals or mission of an organization?

they took a oath to uphold the Constitution ..

then that 1A and 2A part a lot forget about to uphold

and then theirs that Scotus ruling .. no duty to protect ..

so where does that leave the LEO ??

its a really bad shit show now ..

 

[spat]

Well, this is an interview of the dude in question, with him talking. Not sure how a first person account can be compared with third, fourth or even fifth person account given by MSM. If his personal account of his own actions and observations are in question, then how can anything we see posted here be believed?

Is he lying? Maybe, but why, he would be person of the year and a real president would give him a medal. Let me guess, the deep state got to him.

The teacher we originally heard propped open a door, lawyered up. The video of that, not released. All we have is 5th person reporting from MSM.

I wasn't referring to this interview, I was talking about all the previous stories that made erroneous claims, including the ones that claimed he shot the guy.

 

[spat]

Is there anything about disobeying an order that goes against the oath you took or contradicts the goals or mission of an organization?

Well, I would not take an oath that might put me in a situation to do such immoral or unethical things.

But, for someone who has, I'd say it would be a lot easier to live with yourself for violating an oath than for letting a dozen little kids get murdered while you stand by and do nothing.

 

[Truebeliever]

It only ended *because* of one of those parents, who had to go borrow a shotgun from his barber.

The fact that his day job was border patrol is irrelevant. He was off duty.

He was not on the SWAT team that did the entry and killed the gunman .
He did get to his kid’s classroom, and evacuate the whole classroom and other classrooms .
But I agree. It’s a plus for private ownership

 

[Truebeliever]

The fault lies squarely on the incident commander who declared it to be a hostage situation . In the active shooter training , they teach it can become a hostage situation . Then it switches to a isolate , contain and let SWAT do the entry. That’s the chain of command.
Imagine if what would be happening to that regular officer if he disobeyed orders if the gunman had put one of the kids between him and that kid was killed as a result of the regular officer’s entry. That officer would be on criminal trial with all the talking heads saying “ he should have waited for SWAT”. Reports are saying they had a hostage negotiator still attempting to talk to the gunman when the Border patrol guys went in. .
Texas school shooting: Uvalde mayor details how negotiator tried to call Salvador Ramos

 

[spat]

The fault lies squarely on the incident commander who declared it to be a hostage situation . In the active shooter training , they teach it can become a hostage situation . Then it switches to a isolate , contain and let SWAT do the entry. That’s the chain of command.
Imagine if what would be happening to that regular officer if he disobeyed orders if the gunman had put one of the kids between him and that kid was killed as a result of the regular officer’s entry. That officer would be on criminal trial with all the talking heads saying “ he should have waited for SWAT”. Reports are saying they had a hostage negotiator still attempting to talk to the gunman when the Border patrol guys went in. .
Texas school shooting: Uvalde mayor details how negotiator tried to call Salvador Ramos

Yep, following a shitty leader frequently puts you in a no win situation.

Best to find another job if you can't trust your leadership, or live with their failures.

 

[BerettaGuy]

Here is a pretty objective review of the situation and aftermath.

 

[Truebeliever]

Yep, following a shitty leader frequently puts you in a no win situation.

Best to find another job if you can't trust your leadership, or live with their failures.

The problem is, you don’t know that until it’s too late in many occasions. And even then, how often does that situation arise. I have dealt with some bad bosses. That’s why we would handle the situation before they arrived. Sometimes you can’t

 

[spat]

The problem is, you don’t know that until it’s too late in many occasions. And even then, how often does that situation arise. I have dealt with some bad bosses. That’s why we would handle the situation before they arrived. Sometimes you can’t

Better decide what orders you'll follow now.

By the time you're standing in the parking lot watching kids get slaughtered it's too late.

 

[Steal2B]

Better decide what orders you'll follow now.

By the time you're standing in the parking lot watching kids get slaughtered it's too late.

I've lived a long time following the code, "Do the right thing ... voluntarily " and found that eventually the "right thing" prevails or the "wrong thing was never worth jack shit"

 

[Truebeliever]

Here is a pretty objective review of the situation and aftermath.

The person is wrong about the police could have easily opened that door

Better decide what orders you'll follow now.

By the time you're standing in the parking lot watching kids get slaughtered it's too late.

Remember we are seeing this with 20/20 hindsight. The officers in the hallway aren’t getting all the information we are getting now. They didn’t know about the 911 calls by people inside . The incident commander and that SWAT team would have had more information than them

 

[GOYABEAN]

 

[Stuckinny]

I wasn't referring to this interview, I was talking about all the previous stories that made erroneous claims, including the ones that claimed he shot the guy.

Gotcha....lots of BS out there

 

[omfgrub]

Less people being religious isn't the reason. I kill as many people as I want to every day. That number is 0. You don't need religion to understand that killing people, stealing, etc. is wrong.

The problem with this argument that you borrowed (and I respect Penn and his political talking points immensely) is that this assumes objective morality. How is it there isn't a source for morality -- that it just is?

 

[SonOfSun]

The problem with this argument that you borrowed (and I respect Penn and his political talking points immensely) is that this assumes objective morality. How is it there isn't a source for morality -- that it just is?

I don't need a mythic figure to understand that taking things from people just because I want them or killing other people is wrong. A source for morality? It feels bad when people steal your things, or whatever else you can think of... so maybe I just don't want to do that to other people? I don't need "god" to figure that out.

 

[spat]

I don't need a mythic figure to understand that taking things from people just because I want them or killing other people is wrong. A source for morality? It feels bad when people steal your things, or whatever else you can think of... so maybe I just don't want to do that to other people? I don't need "god" to figure that out.

Sure, you want to rape and murder 0 people.

But, where does your moral authority to prevent other people who do want to do those things from doing them come from ?

Without a font of moral authority, why can't Epstein, Weinstein and Cosby rape as much as *they* want ? Where does your right to stop then derive from ?




Also, given the state of the world today, I'm not sure the desire *not* to murder some people is the proper moral choice. We have people out there today every bit as evil as Hitler. You *should* want to murder them.

 

[omfgrub]

I don't need a mythic figure to understand that taking things from people just because I want them or killing other people is wrong. A source for morality? It feels bad when people steal your things, or whatever else you can think of... so maybe I just don't want to do that to other people? I don't need "god" to figure that out.

But then there are some people that believe two wrongs make a right. Someone steals their things? They steal someone else's things. In American culture, this is not generally accepted because stealing is against the law. But that person might feel better from their theft, which is justified in their mind. Even Old Testament teachings suggest an eye for an eye. I can't speak to many other religions, but I know there is a mix of this sentiment being morally right or wrong. Is the death penalty right or wrong for a convicted heinous murderer? Does it matter? It's either legal or illegal in whatever country/state/province/town/tribe where it happens.

My point is that morality comes from some external origin. It's not instinctively bred into us. The most obvious source is of course our parents, society, or laws. But then where is the source for those entities? Some god-fearing people long ago interpreted the teachings of their faith into laws and guidelines. So what I'm saying is that directly, morality comes from nurture, and either directly or indirectly from religion/faith/G(g)od(s). That is why rape and murder are not necessarily taboo in different cultures. Different faiths, different teachings, ergo different moralities. If morality came from nature, there should be some homogeneity across all cultures.

 

[spat]

But then there are some people that believe two wrongs make a right. Someone steals their things? They steal someone else's things. In American culture, this is not generally accepted because stealing is against the law. But that person might feel better from their theft, which is justified in their mind. Even Old Testament teachings suggest an eye for an eye. I can't speak to many other religions, but I know there is a mix of this sentiment being morally right or wrong. Is the death penalty right or wrong for a convicted heinous murderer? Does it matter? It's either legal or illegal in whatever country/state/province/town/tribe where it happens.

My point is that morality comes from some external origin. It's not instinctively bred into us. The most obvious source is of course our parents, society, or laws. But then where is the source for those entities? Some god-fearing people long ago interpreted the teachings of their faith into laws and guidelines. So what I'm saying is that directly, morality comes from nurture, and either directly or indirectly from religion/faith/G(g)od(s). That is why rape and murder are not necessarily taboo in different cultures. Different faiths, different teachings, ergo different moralities. If morality came from nature, there should be some homogeneity across all cultures.

The vast majority of theft today is by people who society has convinced they are "owed".


Even our legal system in many cities has effectively legalized shoplifting because most of the shop lifters share a cosmetic characteristic with people who were oppressed over a century ago.

 

[spat]

The person is wrong about the police could have easily opened that door

Remember we are seeing this with 20/20 hindsight. The officers in the hallway aren’t getting all the information we are getting now. They didn’t know about the 911 calls by people inside . The incident commander and that SWAT team would have had more information than them

20/20 hindsight.

20/20 foresight, and most of the people in the present said that was a terrible call too.


Nope, I'm tired of being asked to excuse terrible decision making because "you weren't there".

If you accept a position of authority, then you accept responsibility for the results of that authority.

If you're the guy who issues an order, it's your fault if it's a bad order. Don't like that, then don't issue orders.

 

[Truebeliever]

20/20 hindsight.

20/20 foresight, and most of the people in the present said that was a terrible call too.


Nope, I'm tired of being asked to excuse terrible decision making because "you weren't there".

If you accept a position of authority, then you accept responsibility for the results of that authority.

If you're the guy who issues an order, it's your fault if it's a bad order. Don't like that, then don't issue orders.

Right. The decision maker. The officers in that hallway were not getting the information that the incident commander or the SWAT would.
I saw this on another forum but I think you should see this before you believe everything you are being told about this incident

 

[Rap]

The vast majority of theft today is by people who society has convinced they are "owed".


Even our legal system in many cities has effectively legalized shoplifting because most of the shop lifters share a cosmetic characteristic with people who were oppressed over a century ago.

Theft by volume of incidents or volume of dollars?

Also: Civil Rights Act of 1965.

 

[spat]

Theft by volume of incidents or volume of dollars?

Also: Civil Rights Act of 1965.

Volume of dollars is the government.

 

[livingston]

Chilling images show students at Salvador Ramos’ HS pretending to be dead during active-shooter drill on March 22​

Ruben Ruiz, a Uvalde school district cop and husband of slain Robb Elementary School fourth-grade teacher Eva Mireles, held the chillingly prophetic drill
Ruben Ruiz, a Uvalde school district cop and husband of slain Robb Elementary School fourth-grade teacher Eva Mireles, held the chillingly prophetic drill on March 22 at Uvalde High School, where gunman Salvador Ramos, 18, was a student.

“Our overall goal is to train every Uvalde area law enforcement officer so that we can prepare as best as possible for any situation that may arise,” the police agency said on its Facebook page.

Chilling images show students at Salvador Ramos’ HS pretending to be dead during active-shooter drill

Ruben Ruiz, a Uvalde school district cop and husband of slain Robb Elementary teacher Eva Mireles, held the chillingly prophetic drill on March 22 at Uvalde High School.

nypost.com

 

[Darth]

My point is that morality comes from some external origin. It's not instinctively bred into us. The most obvious source is of course our parents, society, or laws. But then where is the source for those entities? Some god-fearing people long ago interpreted the teachings of their faith into laws and guidelines. So what I'm saying is that directly, morality comes from nurture, and either directly or indirectly from religion/faith/G(g)od(s). That is why rape and murder are not necessarily taboo in different cultures. Different faiths, different teachings, ergo different moralities. If morality came from nature, there should be some homogeneity across all cultures.

Absolutely incorrect.

Objective mortality always had been and always will be superior to dogma.

 

[Darth]

The problem with this argument that you borrowed (and I respect Penn and his political talking points immensely) is that this assumes objective morality. How is it there isn't a source for morality -- that it just is?

Ah, my signature.

There are many places objective moral frameworks derive from. There could not possibly be a "source", as morality is not a single entity.

 

[spat]

Right. The decision maker. The officers in that hallway were not getting the information that the incident commander or the SWAT would.
I saw this on another forum but I think you should see this before you believe everything you are being told about this incident

When you blindly follow orders you are trusting the authority who is issuing them.

If that authority is not trustworthy, it is your fault for trusting them.

So, if you follow bad orders from a bad incident commander, it's your fault for trusting him.

 

[NYCGuy]

I know this is old news already. Not sure if anyone asked this. Can we do a poll? How many of you are sending your kids to school going forward?

 

[Truebeliever]

When you blindly follow orders you are trusting the authority who is issuing them.

If that authority is not trustworthy, it is your fault for trusting them.

So, if you follow bad orders from a bad incident commander, it's your fault for trusting him.

So a private in the military can disobey orders not knowing all of the plan , or what the other units are doing ? The officers in the hallway don’t know about the 911 calls by the kids inside. What they did know is that the shots stopped and that a hostage negotiator is doing their job from a different location ( not the hallway ).
So what you are saying is even if the hostage negotiator might be actually talking to the gunman ( who might be literally holding a child -unknown to the people in the hallway) and a delta force team is on the way ( the people in the hallway wouldn’t know), you are advocating that a patrol officer not trained in breeching attempt, nor have the tools to do so, attempt it.
The cops in that hallway couldn’t do it even if they wanted too. They didn’t have the key and that door wasn’t going to break for them.
Here is another example of how a locked door can effect an active shooter entry.

 

[spat]

So a private in the military can disobey orders not knowing all of the plan , or what the other units are doing ? The officers in the hallway don’t know about the 911 calls by the kids inside. What they did know is that the shots stopped and that a hostage negotiator is doing their job from a different location ( not the hallway ).
So what you are saying is even if the hostage negotiator might be actually talking to the gunman ( who might be literally holding a child -unknown to the people in the hallway) and a delta force team is on the way ( the people in the hallway wouldn’t know), you are advocating that a patrol officer not trained in breeching attempt, nor have the tools to do so, attempt it.
The cops in that hallway couldn’t do it even if they wanted too. They didn’t have the key and that door wasn’t going to break for them.
Here is another example of how a locked door can effect an active shooter entry.

If a private in the military has no confidence in his leadership, then he needs to GTFO.

It's that simple.

You don't need to know the whole plan. You *can* just follow orders that don't make sense.

But you are trusting those in charge when you do. That is your choice, whether they are trustworthy or not.

Blindly following orders of trustworthy and competent leadership is necessary in complex organizations.

Blindly following orders of the incompetent or malevolent leads to the charge of the light brigade, or Auchwitz.

So, do *you* trust your leadership ? If not, then why are you following their orders ?