Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
He was not on the SWAT team that did the entry and killed the gunman .
He did get to his kid’s classroom, and evacuate the whole classroom and other classrooms .
But I agree. It’s a plus for private ownership
Shooting at Uvalde Texas elementary school
- Thread starter Catskillkid
- Start date
He did get to his kid’s classroom, and evacuate the whole classroom and other classrooms .
But I agree. It’s a plus for private ownership
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
The fault lies squarely on the incident commander who declared it to be a hostage situation . In the active shooter training , they teach it can become a hostage situation . Then it switches to a isolate , contain and let SWAT do the entry. That’s the chain of command.
Imagine if what would be happening to that regular officer if he disobeyed orders if the gunman had put one of the kids between him and that kid was killed as a result of the regular officer’s entry. That officer would be on criminal trial with all the talking heads saying “ he should have waited for SWAT”. Reports are saying they had a hostage negotiator still attempting to talk to the gunman when the Border patrol guys went in. .
Texas school shooting: Uvalde mayor details how negotiator tried to call Salvador Ramos
Imagine if what would be happening to that regular officer if he disobeyed orders if the gunman had put one of the kids between him and that kid was killed as a result of the regular officer’s entry. That officer would be on criminal trial with all the talking heads saying “ he should have waited for SWAT”. Reports are saying they had a hostage negotiator still attempting to talk to the gunman when the Border patrol guys went in. .
Texas school shooting: Uvalde mayor details how negotiator tried to call Salvador Ramos
spat
.950 JDJ
Yep, following a shitty leader frequently puts you in a no win situation.
Best to find another job if you can't trust your leadership, or live with their failures.
BerettaGuy
.308 Win
Here is a pretty objective review of the situation and aftermath.
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
The problem is, you don’t know that until it’s too late in many occasions. And even then, how often does that situation arise. I have dealt with some bad bosses. That’s why we would handle the situation before they arrived. Sometimes you can’t
spat
.950 JDJ
Better decide what orders you'll follow now.
By the time you're standing in the parking lot watching kids get slaughtered it's too late.
Steal2B
.700 Nitro Express
I've lived a long time following the code, "Do the right thing ... voluntarily " and found that eventually the "right thing" prevails or the "wrong thing was never worth jack shit"
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
The person is wrong about the police could have easily opened that door
Remember we are seeing this with 20/20 hindsight. The officers in the hallway aren’t getting all the information we are getting now. They didn’t know about the 911 calls by people inside . The incident commander and that SWAT team would have had more information than them
GOYABEAN
.950 JDJ
Stuckinny
.44 mag
Gotcha....lots of BS out there
The problem with this argument that you borrowed (and I respect Penn and his political talking points immensely) is that this assumes objective morality. How is it there isn't a source for morality -- that it just is?
The problem with this argument that you borrowed (and I respect Penn and his political talking points immensely) is that this assumes objective morality. How is it there isn't a source for morality -- that it just is?
I don't need a mythic figure to understand that taking things from people just because I want them or killing other people is wrong. A source for morality? It feels bad when people steal your things, or whatever else you can think of... so maybe I just don't want to do that to other people? I don't need "god" to figure that out.
spat
.950 JDJ
Sure, you want to rape and murder 0 people.
But, where does your moral authority to prevent other people who do want to do those things from doing them come from ?
Without a font of moral authority, why can't Epstein, Weinstein and Cosby rape as much as *they* want ? Where does your right to stop then derive from ?
Also, given the state of the world today, I'm not sure the desire *not* to murder some people is the proper moral choice. We have people out there today every bit as evil as Hitler. You *should* want to murder them.
But then there are some people that believe two wrongs make a right. Someone steals their things? They steal someone else's things. In American culture, this is not generally accepted because stealing is against the law. But that person might feel better from their theft, which is justified in their mind. Even Old Testament teachings suggest an eye for an eye. I can't speak to many other religions, but I know there is a mix of this sentiment being morally right or wrong. Is the death penalty right or wrong for a convicted heinous murderer? Does it matter? It's either legal or illegal in whatever country/state/province/town/tribe where it happens.
My point is that morality comes from some external origin. It's not instinctively bred into us. The most obvious source is of course our parents, society, or laws. But then where is the source for those entities? Some god-fearing people long ago interpreted the teachings of their faith into laws and guidelines. So what I'm saying is that directly, morality comes from nurture, and either directly or indirectly from religion/faith/G(g)od(s). That is why rape and murder are not necessarily taboo in different cultures. Different faiths, different teachings, ergo different moralities. If morality came from nature, there should be some homogeneity across all cultures.
spat
.950 JDJ
The vast majority of theft today is by people who society has convinced they are "owed".
Even our legal system in many cities has effectively legalized shoplifting because most of the shop lifters share a cosmetic characteristic with people who were oppressed over a century ago.
spat
.950 JDJ
20/20 hindsight.
20/20 foresight, and most of the people in the present said that was a terrible call too.
Nope, I'm tired of being asked to excuse terrible decision making because "you weren't there".
If you accept a position of authority, then you accept responsibility for the results of that authority.
If you're the guy who issues an order, it's your fault if it's a bad order. Don't like that, then don't issue orders.
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
Right. The decision maker. The officers in that hallway were not getting the information that the incident commander or the SWAT would.
I saw this on another forum but I think you should see this before you believe everything you are being told about this incident
spat
.950 JDJ
Volume of dollars is the government.
livingston
20×102mm Vulcan
Chilling images show students at Salvador Ramos’ HS pretending to be dead during active-shooter drill on March 22
Ruben Ruiz, a Uvalde school district cop and husband of slain Robb Elementary School fourth-grade teacher Eva Mireles, held the chillingly prophetic drillRuben Ruiz, a Uvalde school district cop and husband of slain Robb Elementary School fourth-grade teacher Eva Mireles, held the chillingly prophetic drill on March 22 at Uvalde High School, where gunman Salvador Ramos, 18, was a student.
“Our overall goal is to train every Uvalde area law enforcement officer so that we can prepare as best as possible for any situation that may arise,” the police agency said on its Facebook page.
Chilling images show students at Salvador Ramos’ HS pretending to be dead during active-shooter drill
Ruben Ruiz, a Uvalde school district cop and husband of slain Robb Elementary teacher Eva Mireles, held the chillingly prophetic drill on March 22 at Uvalde High School.
nypost.com
Absolutely incorrect.
Objective mortality always had been and always will be superior to dogma.
Ah, my signature.
The problem with this argument that you borrowed (and I respect Penn and his political talking points immensely) is that this assumes objective morality. How is it there isn't a source for morality -- that it just is?
There are many places objective moral frameworks derive from. There could not possibly be a "source", as morality is not a single entity.
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spat
.950 JDJ
When you blindly follow orders you are trusting the authority who is issuing them.
If that authority is not trustworthy, it is your fault for trusting them.
So, if you follow bad orders from a bad incident commander, it's your fault for trusting him.
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
So a private in the military can disobey orders not knowing all of the plan , or what the other units are doing ? The officers in the hallway don’t know about the 911 calls by the kids inside. What they did know is that the shots stopped and that a hostage negotiator is doing their job from a different location ( not the hallway ).
So what you are saying is even if the hostage negotiator might be actually talking to the gunman ( who might be literally holding a child -unknown to the people in the hallway) and a delta force team is on the way ( the people in the hallway wouldn’t know), you are advocating that a patrol officer not trained in breeching attempt, nor have the tools to do so, attempt it.
The cops in that hallway couldn’t do it even if they wanted too. They didn’t have the key and that door wasn’t going to break for them.
Here is another example of how a locked door can effect an active shooter entry.
spat
.950 JDJ
If a private in the military has no confidence in his leadership, then he needs to GTFO.
It's that simple.
You don't need to know the whole plan. You *can* just follow orders that don't make sense.
But you are trusting those in charge when you do. That is your choice, whether they are trustworthy or not.
Blindly following orders of trustworthy and competent leadership is necessary in complex organizations.
Blindly following orders of the incompetent or malevolent leads to the charge of the light brigade, or Auchwitz.
So, do *you* trust your leadership ? If not, then why are you following their orders ?
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
So are you telling me that a private in the military has a choice ?
So a private who is not privy to all the information is even in a position to know if his leadership is making a bad call or not?
Get realistic. Good leaders can also make bad calls.
And tell us, how would you breech that door as one of those patrol officers in that hallway ?
Also remember that a hostage negotiator is supposed to be talking/or attempting to the gunman. He is not doing this in the hallway but another location via phone. A SWAT team is there, but you are deciding an entry without them? Get realistic
Hostage negotiators aren't important when the person is an active shooter.. those kids and teachers were not Hostages. They were victims..
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Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
When the shooting stops, it can be a hostage situation. The shooting had stopped. That’s why that bad call could have been the right one with the little information that they had. Active shooters can turn into hostage ones .
The officers in the hallway didn’t know that the kids inside where hiding and calling 911 unless someone told them .
Maybe the leadership and the SWAT team knew that but they weren’t in that hallway then.
And think about this. Most of the guys in the hallway did not train active shooter tactics together like a military squad or SWAT team would. They might have just met each other for the first time. They don’t know how each will react.
To put it in sports terms, imagine running a football play where you just met your team, don’t know if any have played before or how well or which positions they have played before. Now expected to run the play perfectly against an opponent on the first down.
And you don’t have the equipment to breech the door, and everyone’s shots have to be perfect because you might hit a kid.
Oh, and add that there is a SWAT team outside who can go in