Shooting at Uvalde Texas elementary school

[Truebeliever]

If a private in the military has no confidence in his leadership, then he needs to GTFO.

It's that simple.

You don't need to know the whole plan. You *can* just follow orders that don't make sense.

But you are trusting those in charge when you do. That is your choice, whether they are trustworthy or not.

Blindly following orders of trustworthy and competent leadership is necessary in complex organizations.

Blindly following orders of the incompetent or malevolent leads to the charge of the light brigade, or Auchwitz.

So, do *you* trust your leadership ? If not, then why are you following their orders ?

So are you telling me that a private in the military has a choice ?
So a private who is not privy to all the information is even in a position to know if his leadership is making a bad call or not?

Get realistic. Good leaders can also make bad calls.

And tell us, how would you breech that door as one of those patrol officers in that hallway ?
Also remember that a hostage negotiator is supposed to be talking/or attempting to the gunman. He is not doing this in the hallway but another location via phone. A SWAT team is there, but you are deciding an entry without them? Get realistic

 

[Edwardteach72]

So are you telling me that a private in the military has a choice ?
So a private who is not privy to all the information is even in a position to know if his leadership is making a bad call or not?

Get realistic. Good leaders can also make bad calls.

And tell us, how would you breech that door as one of those patrol officers in that hallway ?
Also remember that a hostage negotiator is supposed to be talking/or attempting to the gunman. He is not doing this in the hallway but another location via phone. A SWAT team is there, but you are deciding an entry without them? Get realistic

Hostage negotiators aren't important when the person is an active shooter.. those kids and teachers were not Hostages. They were victims..

 

[Truebeliever]

Hostage negotiators aren't important when the person is an active shooter.. those kids and teachers where not Hostages. They were victims..

When the shooting stops, it can be a hostage situation. The shooting had stopped. That’s why that bad call could have been the right one with the little information that they had. Active shooters can turn into hostage ones .
The officers in the hallway didn’t know that the kids inside where hiding and calling 911 unless someone told them .
Maybe the leadership and the SWAT team knew that but they weren’t in that hallway then.
And think about this. Most of the guys in the hallway did not train active shooter tactics together like a military squad or SWAT team would. They might have just met each other for the first time. They don’t know how each will react.
To put it in sports terms, imagine running a football play where you just met your team, don’t know if any have played before or how well or which positions they have played before. Now expected to run the play perfectly against an opponent on the first down.
And you don’t have the equipment to breech the door, and everyone’s shots have to be perfect because you might hit a kid.
Oh, and add that there is a SWAT team outside who can go in

 

[Darth]

I swear the cops could have been the ones that shot up the place and this guy would defend them.

 

[Edwardteach72]

When the shooting stops, it can be a hostage situation.

The shooting didn't stop

 

[Edwardteach72]

The cop didn't know the kids inside where hiding or calling 911..

Just knew that some gunman was shooting them...

Yup sounds like a logical reason to sit back wait for all the murder to stop so then we can chit chat on the phone to come out peacefully

 

[spat]

So are you telling me that a private in the military has a choice ?
So a private who is not privy to all the information is even in a position to know if his leadership is making a bad call or not?

Get realistic. Good leaders can also make bad calls.

And tell us, how would you breech that door as one of those patrol officers in that hallway ?
Also remember that a hostage negotiator is supposed to be talking/or attempting to the gunman. He is not doing this in the hallway but another location via phone. A SWAT team is there, but you are deciding an entry without them? Get realistic

No, the private doesn't know if any particular order is a good one or not.

But unless he *does* know that his leadership is good and makes good choices in general, he should he looking for any exit he can find before they either get him killed or order him to commit an atrocity.

Remember the old TV show "hogan's heroes" ?

You could get the exact same questionable order from Col Hogan as you would from Col Crittenden.

Following Hogan would be wise, following Crittenden would be foolish.



But, back to the case at hand. All the cops who stood down should be ashamed. "Just following orders" should not be enough to absolve their conscious. If they don't feel guilty about that for the rest of their lives, then they shouldn't be cops.

 

[spat]

I swear the cops could have been the ones that shot up the place and this guy would defend them.

I think the people of Uvdale would have been better off without a police department.

If the cops in general don't get their shit straightened out soon, the right are going to be calling for defunding them too.

 

[Truebeliever]

The shooting didn't stop

It did stop. That’s confirmed. It’s the reason it stopped was because he ran out of victims ( or so he thought). But the police didn’t know that. The other shots were at the police or so they thought . There was a huge lull in the gunfire.

 

[Truebeliever]

I think the people of Uvdale would have been better off without a police department.

If the cops in general don't get their shit straightened out soon, the right are going to be calling for defunding them too.

That’s because you are believing the media when it comes to this incident. A woman DID NOT jump a fence and save her own kid. That kid was in a building different than the building the shooter was in.
The police during that waiting time evacuated the kids from the adjoining classrooms in the building. They didn’t just do nothing as the perception created by the media is saying .

 

[TEOTWAWKI inc.]

I think a well regulated militia, comprised only of local citizens, many of whom would be likely to have children in the school, and several members likely to be employed there, would have delivered a more effective and timely end to the murders than a non-traditional, school board sanctioned police force.

Why is a school district in the police business anyway?

 

[Truebeliever]

I think a well regulated militia, comprised only of local citizens, many of whom would be likely to have children in the school, and several members likely to be employed there, would have delivered a more effective and timely end to the murders than a non-traditional, school board sanctioned police force.

Why is a school district in the police business anyway?

I doubt that milita idea would have worked any better. How fast could they have responded. The gunman would have moved to a second or third classroom by then. The first officers on the scene contained the gunman to one classroom.

What does that milita train for ? Hostage rescue? Is that their primary duty? Then maybe. There is a reason the military leaves such things to tier 3 operators and above to do. And why police /feds use special weapons and tactics teams for such things.

This incident falls on one person. The guy who decided it was now a hostage situation and decided to his a hostage negotiator. A federal SWAT team was there and waiting .

 

[TEOTWAWKI inc.]

I doubt that milita idea would have worked any better. How fast could they have responded. The gunman would have moved to a second or third classroom by then. The first officers on the scene contained the gunman to one classroom.

What does that milita train for ? Hostage rescue? Is that their primary duty? Then maybe. There is a reason the military leaves such things to tier 3 operators and above to do. And why police /feds use special weapons and tactics teams for such things.

This incident falls on one person. The guy who decided it was now a hostage situation and decided to his a hostage negotiator. A federal SWAT team was there and waiting .

An armed and trained group of parents fearing for the lives of their children, and other selfless community members, wouldn't have waited 45 minutes for someone else to go in. They all would have given their lives, without a second thought, in an attempt to stop the gunman and save their kids.

The only reasonable response to a situation like this, being that safeguards were not in place, or they were and failed, is SEEK AND DESTROY. No debate, no delay, no mercy. Drag the killers lifeless body out to the street and burn it, without ever a mention of their name.

And a militia would likely include the children, also members of their community, in emergency training.

Communities are supposed to take care of their own. The militia is responsible for the community safety.

 

[Acer-m14]

so the shooting stopped and now you have 19 kids on the floor bleeding out .. ok lets pause for a hour for negotiations now

 

[spat]

I doubt that milita idea would have worked any better. How fast could they have responded. The gunman would have moved to a second or third classroom by then. The first officers on the scene contained the gunman to one classroom.

What does that milita train for ? Hostage rescue? Is that their primary duty? Then maybe. There is a reason the military leaves such things to tier 3 operators and above to do. And why police /feds use special weapons and tactics teams for such things.

This incident falls on one person. The guy who decided it was now a hostage situation and decided to his a hostage negotiator. A federal SWAT team was there and waiting .

Some of those parents were armed and ready on site and were prevented from going in by that police force.

Some of them were even *on* that police force and were prevented from going in only due to their conditioning to follow orders.

Would the parents have done a perfect job ? No, obviously not, but they would be hard pressed to have done a worse one.

 

[Dunedain Ranger]

I doubt that milita idea would have worked any better. How fast could they have responded. The gunman would have moved to a second or third classroom by then. The first officers on the scene contained the gunman to one classroom.

What does that milita train for ? Hostage rescue? Is that their primary duty? Then maybe. There is a reason the military leaves such things to tier 3 operators and above to do. And why police /feds use special weapons and tactics teams for such things.

This incident falls on one person. The guy who decided it was now a hostage situation and decided to his a hostage negotiator. A federal SWAT team was there and waiting .

If my child was in that school, not only would i have responded at the same time, or sooner, than the responding officers, i would have dispatched said criminal before he was finally killed, in this particular situation. I would have heard it on my personal in home police scanner, and went immediately.

I would have had very trusted, proficient, fearless, and deadly accurate backup, as well, from my much younger than me, wife and her 5.56 Troy other. She can outrun and gun with the best of em. Dare i say, if our child was in this school, we would be equal to, or greater than, a "well trained militia". Her and i, as the "regular civilians" that we are, probably fire 5 to 6,000 rounds of .223 and 5.56 every year, each. The only reason that her number of rounds and target hit numbers are down this year, is because shes 8 months pregnant with my 3rd daughter, at the moment. Yes, she asked the Dr if she could shoot while pregnant. They said, NO indoor range firing, only outdoor range, which we own our own outdoor range anyway, and only into the first few weeks of her 2nd trimester.

She was so happy. I said NO SHOOTING at all. She conceded, lol. One more month to go, and i bet i know what we will be doing just a week or so after my daughters here. As long as she doesnt need a C section though, lmao.

 

[Acer-m14]

i think one thing to take into mind is .. a parent running in for his or her child .. is also running in for there Childs friends too .. they may not think it .. but there doing it

 

[Jem45472]

Parents going in in groups covering the 4 entrances would have strung this kid up by the balls. Sure, they would have lost a few, but the outcome would have been worth the cost.

I'm still dying to hear why they didn't have any fucking windows covered. (Maybe they did and we're just watching the kids bleed out, while waiting for backup.)

 

[omfgrub]

Absolutely incorrect.

Objective mortality always had been and always will be superior to dogma.

I may be incorrect, but not absolutely. To your point, objective morality may only exist in limited amounts. What I think is right, you may think is wrong. Or, what both of us think is right (or wrong) may be for completely different reasons. Therefore not everything can be filed into objective morality.

Maybe everyone can agree that killing someone that is in the middle of saving 20 drowning children is wrong, but killing someone that is trying to drown 20 children is not objectively moral. Probably not the best example. Maybe the Trolley Problem is a better one. Either way, I'm neither a theologian nor a philosopher, but I can't say there are universal truths (with regards to morality) with no source. It sounds like you're fringing on describing Moral Platonism, but there still must be an explanation as to how these truths came to be, and not just exist as abstractions.

Is the greater good moral, or are basic laws moral? They are mutually exclusive, I'm sure no one here will argue.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Am I the only one that wonders what would happen if some parent shows up with a rifle and tries to storm in to save the children? I would think if seen they wouldn't even make it to an entrance of the school without being gunned down (think about why that is). If they somehow did make it inside it would be even trickier being that there was a team already near the classroom where the shooter was. I get the sentiment. You'd want to go in and save the children but I don't think it would turn out how you think it would.

 

[Jem45472]

Am I the only one that wonders what would happen if some parent shows up with a rifle and tries to storm in to save the children? I would think if seen they wouldn't even make it to an entrance of the school without being gunned down (think about why that is). If they somehow did make it inside it would be even trickier being that there was a team already near the classroom where the shooter was. I get the sentiment. You'd want to go in and save the children but I don't think it would turn out how you think it would.

For sure, but if it was going to happen, whatever agencies were outside could have radioed the other team saying you have a shit storm coming in.

 

[ECU Pirates]

When shooting stops bleeding doesn’t.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

For sure, but if it was going to happen, whatever agencies were outside could have radioed the other team saying you have a shit storm coming in.

They could. This would add even more chaos. Now you have the agencies outside possibly shooting at the school or storming in to get the "assailant with a gun". Now the team inside is on high alert for a "possible second gunman". Again. I get the sentiment of wanting to save people but saying you would rush in and save the kids could make an already shitty situation even worse.

 

[Jem45472]

They could. This would add even more chaos. Now you have the agencies outside possibly shooting at the school or storming in to get the "assailant with a gun". Now the team inside is on high alert for a "possible second gunman". Again. I get the sentiment of wanting to save people but saying you would rush in and save the kids could make an already shitty situation even worse.

Again, I agree.But I will tell you if it was my kids in that room you're damn right I'd be going in regardless if nothing else was being done.

 

[dwa12479]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that once a shooter goes "active", he should always be considered active, whether rounds are still be expelled or not.

 

[Darth]

I may be incorrect, but not absolutely. To your point, objective morality may only exist in limited amounts. What I think is right, you may think is wrong. Or, what both of us think is right (or wrong) may be for completely different reasons. Therefore not everything can be filed into objective morality.

Maybe everyone can agree that killing someone that is in the middle of saving 20 drowning children is wrong, but killing someone that is trying to drown 20 children is not objectively moral. Probably not the best example. Maybe the Trolley Problem is a better one. Either way, I'm neither a theologian nor a philosopher, but I can't say there are universal truths (with regards to morality) with no source. It sounds like you're fringing on describing Moral Platonism, but there still must be an explanation as to how these truths came to be, and not just exist as abstractions.

Is the greater good moral, or are basic laws moral? They are mutually exclusive, I'm sure no one here will argue.

As I said, absolutely incorrect.

You and I have a moral conundrum, how do we go about determining the correct course of action?

 

[dwa12479]

If a private in the military has no confidence in his leadership, then he needs to GTFO.

It's that simple.

Not quite. When you sign that contract you're now government property. You can't just walk away, even if you have no confidence in your leadership. The only orders you're permitted to ignore are those that are unlawful.

 

[Truebeliever]

An armed and trained group of parents fearing for the lives of their children, and other selfless community members, wouldn't have waited 45 minutes for someone else to go in. They all would have given their lives, without a second thought, in an attempt to stop the gunman and save their kids.

The only reasonable response to a situation like this, being that safeguards were not in place, or they were and failed, is SEEK AND DESTROY. No debate, no delay, no mercy. Drag the killers lifeless body out to the street and burn it, without ever a mention of their name.

And a militia would likely include the children, also members of their community, in emergency training.

Communities are supposed to take care of their own. The militia is responsible for the community safety.

Seek and destroy? There were children still alive in there. And not just the ones bleeding out on the ground. Your method would have gotten more killed unless they trained for it. And together.
Tell me exactly how you would breech and enter. How everyone in the stack would react and not shoot a kid in the background. Would you at least take 5 minutes to rehearse the entry because the shooting had stopped. And you didn’t have a key for the door yet?
Hell, an armed parent was there. And he could not do anything but wait. A cop’s child died in there.
The shooting stopped for awhile . You don’t know why. The gunman might have hostages. A hostage negotiator is in another building attempting to talk with him. And a SWAT team is outside waiting for the word to go in. Then the SWAT team goes against incident commander and decides to go in. Do you jump ahead of that a go in.
Explain your breeching method . Do you trust the FUDD next to you who just happened to show up to cover his sector. He could be great but you don’t know. There is a reason a SWAT team is there and do a lot of kill house hours together

 

[Truebeliever]

Something else to consider, if a normal cop went in there against the Incident Commanders orders and a child was shot in the process, the media would be screaming that he didn’t give the hostage negotiator a chance, he isn’t trained to breech a door, and he got a kid killed. They would have him on criminal charges so fast if just to cover up their malfeasance. The Border Patrol doesn’t answer to the locals and were a SWAT team better trained and more experienced than the incident commander

 

[TEOTWAWKI inc.]

Seek and destroy? There were children still alive in there. And not just the ones bleeding out on the ground. Your method would have gotten more killed unless they trained for it. And together.
Tell me exactly how you would breech and enter. How everyone in the stack would react and not shoot a kid in the background. Would you at least take 5 minutes to rehearse the entry because the shooting had stopped. And you didn’t have a key for the door yet?
Hell, an armed parent was there. And he could not do anything but wait. A cop’s child died in there.
The shooting stopped for awhile . You don’t know why. The gunman might have hostages. A hostage negotiator is in another building attempting to talk with him. And a SWAT team is outside waiting for the word to go in. Then the SWAT team goes against incident commander and decides to go in. Do you jump ahead of that a go in.
Explain your breeching method . Do you trust the FUDD next to you who just happened to show up to cover his sector. He could be great but you don’t know. There is a reason a SWAT team is there and do a lot of kill house hours together

Did you even read what I wrote, or are you just going to wave a red flag because 'Seek and Destroy' sounds scary?

How many people died there? Yeah, more could have, but less could have as well.

What other methods could have been more effective? Every second counts, and the clock is ticking. Better deploy the fancy mobile incident command bus so we have a comfy place to start calling everyone on the schools keyholder list.