Temporary Restaining Order Issued For Concealed Carry Improvement Act (merged thread)

[Saltwater60]

I know we hate wa5ching videos, but this one is actually worth watching. I didn’t see it posted anywhere- if it was, kiss my ass. This guy explains things pretty well, and makes realistic predictions.

I like the videos because I travel a lot for work and watch them while I drive. I stop between appointments, check in here and key up a video.

 

[John Stark]

I don't think you and I disagree on anything. Except for possibly a choice of wording. My 'could happen' refers to passing yet another a law after the CCIA is struck down, not all the egregious crap they have thrown at us in the past several years.

I know that's not 'could' it is 'most certainly did' happen. I saw it with my own eyes.

We have no disagreements on any of the issues in your post.

I read your statement in context, and know what and who you were responding to.

I would point out that you did not in fact actually answer Saltwater's question, which is just about the same question I have asked people many times on numerous topics.

Instead, you demurred and resorted to your "that would not be a victory" rhetoric, and your comment that NY would be abandoning our 232 years "Constitutional Jurisprudence" and the "Rule of Law," as though that would almost be unthinkable.

Answer the question.

 

[Saltwater60]

I know we hate wa5ching videos, but this one is actually worth watching. I didn’t see it posted anywhere- if it was, kiss my ass. This guy explains things pretty well, and makes realistic predictions.

That does break it down very nicely and a great explanation. James is even a bigger moron that I thought on most of that. The one issue I do see that could haunt us is standing as it was an issue in the lower court cases as well. I think the Supreme Court would side with us if it got that far.
I do not see the Supreme Court being mad or laying the smack down on the second circuit as this guy repeatedly says but I’m sure he knows more than I do. Again the brief was sent in but we haven’t heard yet. I suspect we will by weeks end. I’d like her to deny it so we can send it to Thomas and he can share a little greater detail on how the SC would view this and rule on it if it went before them.

 

[lrick]

If 'daFeuhrer insists on putting up names and addresses of CCW holders, just think about this for a moment. The criminals now know what places to AVOID since there will likely be someone home and ARMED.

I'm not sure of the context of your comment, so excuse me if I'm misspeaking, but I don't see any positive side to this.

It makes me and my home more of a target since the criminals now know I have one of the things they want most.

If anything they would refer to that info for who to target NOT who to avoid.

And even if some of them do as you suggest, why should I have to risk defending myself against those that don't (especially in NY) all because the State enabled them?

Besides, I signed and submitted a document offered by the state for the explicit purpose of NOT divulging my personal info.

 

[US RIFLE M1A]

Answer the question.

The wider question is what to do when a state goes rogue. The Amendments passed after the Civil War (13, 14, 15) were an answer to states going rogue and denying basic rights. Thus began a 100+ year fight to implement them.

Pass more Amendments? We already have the 2A and 14A. That's all we need there. Besides, they will not abide by these two, what is to say they will abide by additional amendments? They will not.

Have the current Justice Department bring suit? Good luck with that. They are squarely on the side of NY.

Wait until a solid conservative is in office and appoints a solid conservative as AG? This is one of many reasons why they must cheat to stay in power. They cannot afford to lose power.

You think any one individual has an answer to a state demonstrating complete disrespect for the Constitution and the Supreme Court? Again, good luck with that.

 

[lrick]

This is the only new amendment I'd like to see.

The Oath of Office, in defense of the Constitution shall not be broken. Whosoever found guilty of such charge shall hang from a tree limb.

Yeah I know....we're going to need a bigger tree...

 

[lrick]

I read through the brief. And NY’s strategy is to kill the lawsuit through procedural arguments not the merits. They insist unless someone is actually arrested and charged they are not “suffering imminent injury” - thus lack of standing. They are playing the same game with the Safe Act. No actual arrests so there cannot be a case. The truth is everyone of us is under imminent threat of injury. If I am carrying and have a stroke at the supermarket. I will be charged with a felony when I recover. That’s a threat to me. I guess the question is whether the courts will buy the arguments or not. I noticed for backup they brought up a case of those who were sent letters by Suffolk County for purchasing others at Jerry’s. The judge dismissed their lawsuit because they didn’t have standing. So in their reasoning you don’t have standing until you are arrested and charged. Only then can you litigate while simultaneously fighting criminal charges. The whole thing is a sham. I hope SCOTUS gives NYS a big snack down.

Call it plainly what it is.

terrorism

tĕr′ə-rĭz″əm

noun​

1. The use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals.
2. Resort to terrorizing methods as a means of coercion, or the state of fear and submission produced by the prevalence of such methods.
3. The act of terrorizing, or state of being terrorized; a mode of government by terror or intimidation.

Note: you don't actually need standing to have been terrorized. Bomb threats are still illegal even if no one was harmed.

 

[John Stark]

The wider question is what to do when a state goes rogue. The Amendments passed after the Civil War (13, 14, 15) were an answer to states going rogue and denying basic rights. Thus began a 100+ year fight to implement them.

Pass more Amendments? We already have the 2A and 14A. That's all we need there. Besides, they will not abide by these two, what is to say they will abide by additional amendments? They will not.

Have the current Justice Department bring suit? Good luck with that. They are squarely on the side of NY.

Wait until a solid conservative is in office and appoints a solid conservative as AG? This is one of many reasons why they must cheat to stay in power. They cannot afford to lose power.

You think any one individual has an answer to a state demonstrating complete disrespect for the Constitution and the Supreme Court? Again, good luck with that.

The point is not to single you out as an individual. Its to move people to think outside of the box the government of this state has put every NYer.

We have 60 pages of people in this thread hanging on the latest rulings and legal minutia that are ultimately irrelevant, when the Supreme Court precedent is already clear.

Saltwater basically asked, "Who is going to enforce SCOTUS precedent?" even if they do actually rule against NY on the CCIA. You opted to answer that question by pointing out that NY usurping the power of SCOTUS and refusing to go along with Federal rulings would "not be a victory."

That is what I am driving at here. Its not to single you out, its to get the question out there so people can face reality.

Laws and legal precedent are masturbation when there is no enforcement. That ought to be abundantly clear.

To the fascists running this country now, defying the Court IS A VICTORY. They have proven they can run roughshod over what our actual government is supposed to be, and they gloat about it.

They want a nation where law is pliable and a matter of whimsy. They have already almost achieved the creation of the American equivalent of a Politburo, and have turned Congress and many of the courts and federal agencies into star chambers.

They openly talk about packing the Court to get the results they want out of it, which is a rubber stamp for their own political power.

THAT is the question we need as a People to be dealing with.

The entrenched government MUST disarm us. Losing at the "Supreme" court doesn't matter much to these people at all. They'll just hang tight, keep the shitshow going for years while entrenched bureaucracy slows down the system until they get the results they want.

Unless and until We the People get a grasp on the fact that our government is in fact defunct and has been replaced with a facsimile, a chimera that means us harm at any cost, which acts outside the bounds of even basic decent morality, let along "good governance," these discussions are pointless.

The government is NOT going to save us from itself. It has too much to lose, and if they have to ignore the Supremes or the Constitution or any of our laws, they will. In a perverse sort of way, for their own political purposes, flaunting SCOTUS decisions plays right into their wheel house.

I am not trying to make light of the importance of the Heller, McDonald, Cetano, and Bruen decisions. They are good, if not perfect, decisions.

But as a People, or at least the people who care about the Constitution at all, we are fighting the last war, while the tyrants are winning on the next front before we're even done processing the last battle.

I'm not trying to go after you personally. I am making the point that I've been making since I started posting on the old NY Firearms forum. These very same discussions, at least in principle if not in the specifics, were debated to death when the UnSafe Act was passed, and a decade later, we're still scratching our heads and wondering when the Law is finally going to fall in our favor IN FACT, and not just on paper.

Heller was 2008 for God's sake, and yet here we are 15 years later Infringed far worse than we were before. THAT is a victory for the fascists.

Sitting on our hands waiting for the Court is exactly the game they want us playing, and we've obliged them for 15 years.

 

[GlockModel29]

The point is not to single you out as an individual. Its to move people to think outside of the box the government of this state has put every NYer.

We have 60 pages of people in this thread hanging on the latest rulings and legal minutia that are ultimately irrelevant, when the Supreme Court precedent is already clear.

Saltwater basically asked, "Who is going to enforce SCOTUS precedent?" even if they do actually rule against NY on the CCIA. You opted to answer that question by pointing out that NY usurping the power of SCOTUS and refusing to go along with Federal rulings would "not be a victory."

That is what I am driving at here. Its not to single you out, its to get the question out there so people can face reality.

Laws and legal precedent are masturbation when there is no enforcement. That ought to be abundantly clear.

To the fascists running this country now, defying the Court IS A VICTORY. They have proven they can run roughshod over what our actual government is supposed to be, and they gloat about it.

They want a nation where law is pliable and a matter of whimsy. They have already almost achieved the creation of the American equivalent of a Politburo, and have turned Congress and many of the courts and federal agencies into star chambers.

They openly talk about packing the Court to get the results they want out of it, which is a rubber stamp for their own political power.

THAT is the question we need as a People to be dealing with.

The entrenched government MUST disarm us. Losing at the "Supreme" court doesn't matter much to these people at all. They'll just hang tight, keep the shitshow going for years while entrenched bureaucracy slows down the system until they get the results they want.

Unless and until We the People get a grasp on the fact that our government is in fact defunct and has been replaced with a facsimile, a chimera that means us harm at any cost, which acts outside the bounds of even basic decent morality, let along "good governance," these discussions are pointless.

The government is NOT going to save us from itself. It has too much to lose, and if they have to ignore the Supremes or the Constitution or any of our laws, they will. In a perverse sort of way, for their own political purposes, flaunting SCOTUS decisions plays right into their wheel house.

I am not trying to make light of the importance of the Heller, McDonald, Cetano, and Bruen decisions. They are good, if not perfect, decisions.

But as a People, or at least the people who care about the Constitution at all, we are fighting the last war, while the tyrants are winning on the next front before we're even done processing the last battle.

I'm not trying to go after you personally. I am making the point that I've been making since I started posting on the old NY Firearms forum. These very same discussions, at least in principle if not in the specifics, were debated to death when the UnSafe Act was passed, and a decade later, we're still scratching our heads and wondering when the Law is finally going to fall in our favor IN FACT, and not just on paper.

Heller was 2008 for God's sake, and yet here we are 15 years later Infringed far worse than we were before. THAT is a victory for the fascists.

Sitting on our hands waiting for the Court is exactly the game they want us playing, and we've obliged them for 15 years.
[/QUOTE

 

[lrick]

The point is not to single you out as an individual. Its to move people to think outside of the box the government of this state has put every NYer.

We have 60 pages of people in this thread hanging on the latest rulings and legal minutia that are ultimately irrelevant, when the Supreme Court precedent is already clear.

Saltwater basically asked, "Who is going to enforce SCOTUS precedent?" even if they do actually rule against NY on the CCIA. You opted to answer that question by pointing out that NY usurping the power of SCOTUS and refusing to go along with Federal rulings would "not be a victory."

That is what I am driving at here. Its not to single you out, its to get the question out there so people can face reality.

Laws and legal precedent are masturbation when there is no enforcement. That ought to be abundantly clear.

To the fascists running this country now, defying the Court IS A VICTORY. They have proven they can run roughshod over what our actual government is supposed to be, and they gloat about it.

They want a nation where law is pliable and a matter of whimsy. They have already almost achieved the creation of the American equivalent of a Politburo, and have turned Congress and many of the courts and federal agencies into star chambers.

They openly talk about packing the Court to get the results they want out of it, which is a rubber stamp for their own political power.

THAT is the question we need as a People to be dealing with.

The entrenched government MUST disarm us. Losing at the "Supreme" court doesn't matter much to these people at all. They'll just hang tight, keep the shitshow going for years while entrenched bureaucracy slows down the system until they get the results they want.

Unless and until We the People get a grasp on the fact that our government is in fact defunct and has been replaced with a facsimile, a chimera that means us harm at any cost, which acts outside the bounds of even basic decent morality, let along "good governance," these discussions are pointless.

The government is NOT going to save us from itself. It has too much to lose, and if they have to ignore the Supremes or the Constitution or any of our laws, they will. In a perverse sort of way, for their own political purposes, flaunting SCOTUS decisions plays right into their wheel house.

I am not trying to make light of the importance of the Heller, McDonald, Cetano, and Bruen decisions. They are good, if not perfect, decisions.

But as a People, or at least the people who care about the Constitution at all, we are fighting the last war, while the tyrants are winning on the next front before we're even done processing the last battle.

I'm not trying to go after you personally. I am making the point that I've been making since I started posting on the old NY Firearms forum. These very same discussions, at least in principle if not in the specifics, were debated to death when the UnSafe Act was passed, and a decade later, we're still scratching our heads and wondering when the Law is finally going to fall in our favor IN FACT, and not just on paper.

Heller was 2008 for God's sake, and yet here we are 15 years later Infringed far worse than we were before. THAT is a victory for the fascists.

Sitting on our hands waiting for the Court is exactly the game they want us playing, and we've obliged them for 15 years.

There was a time when gov in general had respect for the courts even when the rulings didn't go their way. The common wisdom was even though we don't like the ruling, we must respect the court's decision and abide by it until it can be challenged. Those days are gone.

So the question becomes why are they gone? It is because too many of our institutions have been infiltrated and co-opted by those that seek to insert their ideology whatever the cost to achieve their goals. They have played the long game.

Normally, everything has a tipping point and that would have been the answer to "Who is going to enforce SCOTUS precedent?" It would ultimately come from the people that reach that tipping point and demand it. I mean, how does the left achieve their goals? They act out, they protest, albeit with support or at least indifference from the governing class. In that regard, the tipping points for the left and the right are set upon sliding scales. The fulcrums do not sit equally. The left is encouraged to reach that point with ease, while the right has been pushed back.

This has been achieved by controlling education, MSM, social media, finance, various gov bureaucracies, private industry, and of course branches of government and the courts themselves. The 2A community has been discouraged (by design) by society from seeking redress in the same way other disenfranchised groups do.

The problem is that far too many 2A proponents fight this battle on one front only. To be won it must be fought on every front we can muster and it will take time. This is far larger than just 2A rights.

As you said, gov is not going to protect us from itself. It is up to us, but we really need a better sense of what we are fighting. Hearts and minds. Until we understand that it will not change with any permanence. Even if we win these current battles, what happens when SCOTUS holds a leftist majority?

60 pages...and full of folks that only tend to this one issue. There's a whole lot of peripheral discussion taking place elsewhere on this forum, but some don't seem so interested. The loss of our 2A rights has not happened in a vacuum.

Who's going to...? (no dig meant to @Saltwater60 for posing the original question, I know he is a very vocal member)

Is this who we've become?

 

[CaliberPlus]

I say this often, we are a third world nation, at least in this state. We have lost so much in the last three years it is horrifyng. We aren't going back, either. The gun thing is front and center for me as it is such an integral part of my life. I guess I have to focus on something because thinking about all of it about drives me to wanting to become a hermit.

 

[ManualF150]

I say this often, we are a third world nation, at least in this state. We have lost so much in the last three years it is horrifyng. We aren't going back, either. The gun thing is front and center for me as it is such an integral part of my life. I guess I have to focus on something because thinking about all of it about drives me to wanting to become a hermit.

You are not the only one brother.

I was at my local gun club this weekend doing some stuff (didn't even shoot!), and kibitzed for a few hours about all this crap.

At the end of the day, it's starting to cramp even the fudds lifestyles. Especially the semi-auto rifle permit scheme.

I really wish the Safe Act and CCIA would just go away and NY be cooperative with SCOTUS.

 

[Dr. Evil]

You are not the only one brother.

IIRC I think she is a she so, sister. Again, that is IIFC. If not, I apologize in advance.

 

[Cooolone]

Fuck NY!!!

Leave it to it's own, let it melt away in it's cesspool of excrement called Liberal Progressive Politics...

While many states are shifting and continue to recognize Constitutional Supremacy over State whims, the last 7 holding out, with the 2 or 3 that have gone full retard, let them... Fuck them, like here, NY!!!

MY fight is gone, I've gotten to the age where my "Give a Fucks" are all used up. I surrender, but I'll retreat. I'm going to retreat to a State, that doesn't shit all over it's constituents. Go where you're not smothered with ridiculous fucking rules, taxed till your blind, and beat over the head until your pockets are emptied, either by the powers that be, or by the ranging criminal element they've released upon the masses. FUCK NY!!!

It's a sorry state of affairs, but honestly, even if put in check by SCOTUS, yes, the SCOTUS with NO Teeth, the State most assuredly has their next set of hurdles ready to go for the States constituents on the next round to go, and the next... They will keep fucking every single state resident without giving much a shit about any of it. NY is done... It's not worth spending the time to argue any of it, because it just doesn't matter. Do what you want, the Big Bad Wolf isn't coming. Why debate hypothetical situations, it's all bullshit...

Zulu Foxtrot
(Zero Fucks)

 

[JunkBoxFull]

Fuck NY!!!

Leave it to it's own, let it melt away in it's cesspool of excrement called Liberal Progressive Politics...

While many states are shifting and continue to recognize Constitutional Supremacy over State whims, the last 7 holding out, with the 2 or 3 that have gone full retard, let them... Fuck them, like here, NY!!!

MY fight is gone, I've gotten to the age where my "Give a Fucks" are all used up. I surrender, but I'll retreat. I'm going to retreat to a State, that doesn't shit all over it's constituents. Go where you're not smothered with ridiculous fucking rules, taxed till your blind, and beat over the head until your pockets are emptied, either by the powers that be, or by the ranging criminal element they've released upon the masses. FUCK NY!!!

It's a sorry state of affairs, but honestly, even if put in check by SCOTUS, yes, the SCOTUS with NO Teeth, the State most assuredly has their next set of hurdles ready to go for the States constituents on the next round to go, and the next... They will keep fucking every single state resident without giving much a shit about any of it. NY is done... It's not worth spending the time to argue any of it, because it just doesn't matter. Do what you want, the Big Bad Wolf isn't coming. Why debate hypothetical situations, it's all bullshit...

Zulu Foxtrot
(Zero Fucks)

You`re absolutely right "the Big Bad Wolf isn't coming", that`s because its already here. The sheeple are its dinner.

 

[Acer-m14]

here we go again ..

are they to damn chicken to make a bill called ..

HR - 38 - 2.0 Constitutional Carry and Driving with a 3000 lb weapon and see how many sponsors back it ..

 

[maverick52]

are they to damn chicken to make a bill called ..

HR - 38 - 2.0 Constitutional Carry and Driving with a 3000 lb weapon and see how many sponsors back it ..

maybe in 2025

 

[CaliberPlus]

I have been called much worse things thatn "brother" . Yes, I check "female" on the little boxes.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

maverick52 said:
I’m not sure I agree. The Second already granted a motion for an expedited hearing. Briefs are due today. I don’t think they will drag this for years. SCOTUS can vacate the stay or they can put pressure on the Second to move this though fast. The case itself will also move fast. Both Suddaby and Sinatra have shown they have an interest in expediting this as well.

I understand why we can be so cynical and I am cynical as well. But this time I am hopeful. Only time will tell

waffles! said:
Has NY filed their Response Brief that was due yesterday (Monday)? If anyone has it, would they please post it here?



I don't see anywhere that NYS has filed their Reply Briefs with SCOTUS that Justice Sotomayor said they needed to file by Monday 01/09. Does anyone know if they did? I would like to read it.

 

[maverick52]

waffles! said:
Has NY filed their Response Brief that was due yesterday (Monday)? If anyone has it, would they please post it here?



I don't see anywhere that NYS has filed their Reply Briefs with SCOTUS that Justice Sotomayor said they needed to file by Monday 01/09. Does anyone know if they did? I would like to read it.

I haven’t seen it

 

[John Stark]

here we go again ..

are they to damn chicken to make a bill called ..

HR - 38 - 2.0 Constitutional Carry and Driving with a 3000 lb weapon and see how many sponsors back it ..

More feel good pablum. The guy in the video admits that this reciprocity bullshit will not get passed in the House, the Senate, or signed by whatever retard is in the White House, BUT its somehow significant that a hundred odd Elephants signed on to this proposed "legislation" that is Dead on Arrival.

/golf clap

The fucking Rhino party has been playing this stupid game with all kinds of legislative bills for decades in order to convince the plebes that they truly have an intention to someday fulfill the promises they make to their constituents.

Anyone remember when the lying Rhinos promised that if they got the House, the Senate, and the White House that they would repeal Obamacare, and then did so once they got control of those two branches?

Yeah me neither. Because they didn't.

How many Republicucks signed onto the last RKBA Infringement that funneled gobs of money to the States to set up better and more stringent Red Flag laws, along with $ for enforcement? THAT bullshit actually DID become fucking law, thanks to traitors among the Republicuck ranks that never seem to get weeded out by the lying scum that run the "party."

The Demscum game is to rail and fight against anything that actually involves taking the Constitution or the Founding of this nation seriously, and the Republicuck game is to pretend that they are the opposition who are defending said Constitution and our Founding while never actually getting around to it.

Call it what you will, a "dog and pony show," or "good cop/bad cop," or a rope-a-dope, it all means the same in the end. Less Liberty.

And let's not forget the entire premise of reciprocity in the first place: licensing schemes that are nothing more than registration schemes and information gathering tools for the despotic regimes FedGov and various states have become, that also serve the purpose of continuing the mindset in the RKBA community that permission slips to exercise a fundamental Right are really not a fucking Infringement.

Registration schemes lead to nothing more than further and tighter restrictions on self and national defense, and eventually always lead to confiscation.

Fuck that, fuck the Republicuck sellouts, and fuck this guy for trying to cram this bullshit down the throats of his viewers.

 

[Arjuna]

Supreme Court lets New York enforce gun law during lawsuit

 

[maverick52]

 

[VietnamEraVet]

BOHICA. Of course. UGH!

 

[Glock_USA]

LOL. All you can do is laugh anymore. Oh well. Maybe in another 10 years SCOTUS will take it up, as is their usual pace for 2A cases.

 

[maverick52]

I am not reading this as negative. They want to give the 2nd a chance to make a final decision. The case was expedited and they just received briefs this week. SCOTUS is warning the 2nd to move fast a decide correctly and if not - we can then seek relief. At which time I am certain SCOTUS will rule in our favor. ITs a process, but I still think we are gonna win,

 

[Glock_USA]

Also to note this was denied by the entire court so we can not appeal to Thomas. They got us good.

 

[thughes]

I am not reading this as negative. They want to give the 2nd a chance to make a final decision. The case was expedited and they just received briefs this week. SCOTUS is warning the 2nd to move fast a decide correctly and if not - we can then seek relief. At which time I am certain SCOTUS will rule in our favor. ITs a process, but I still think we are gonna win,

Yeppers! Heller 2008 -> Bruen 2022.........should only be another 14 years or so before the NY CCIA gets struck down (given the historical timeline of these things).

Meanwhile in free America.......

 

[Saltwater60]

I am not reading this as negative. They want to give the 2nd a chance to make a final decision. The case was expedited and they just received briefs this week. SCOTUS is warning the 2nd to move fast a decide correctly and if not - we can then seek relief. At which time I am certain SCOTUS will rule in our favor. ITs a process, but I still think we are gonna win,

Unless you’re the one that gets arrested this week or next week. If it was stayed the court proceedings would move even faster IMO because NYS and the NYS AG would push for it to be heard and not the second class citizens of NYS. Who am I kidding we’re not even second class.
Although Atilio and Thomas did indicate they see problems with the case so that may help us.

In a two-paragraph statement that accompanied the court’s order, two of the court’s conservative justices, Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas, said the New York law at issue in the case “presents novel and serious questions.” But they said they understood the court’s decision not to intervene now “to reflect respect” for the appeals court’s “procedures in managing its own docket, rather than expressing any view on the merits of the case.”

 

[Glock_USA]

The part I find interesting is they say not to be deterred to re-file with them if the 2ND doesn't give an explanation in a reasonable amount of time. They don't say come back if you dont get your way. So if it stands it's good as long as the 2ND explains why? Seems that way to me. They don't say let the lower court fix it. They say let them explain to you why it is what it is.