Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
.223, shotgun? What are you defending against? Keep them both on hand, and more, assess and act. Why limit yourself.
Robin
Robin
the big old debate ... .223 hunting and home defense
- Thread starter Acer-m14
- Start date
Kent Goldings
.357 mag
One round arguments don't make much sense when I own three rifles just for hunting squirrels.
@thewheels
.308 Win
#4 buck indoors is almost the perfect compromise for an HD shotgun. After much reading and a little impromptu test on some 3/4 inch plywood I ditched the 00
I'd have no issues using a .223 SP or HP indoors for HD either. With some Earpro's in.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
If I was going to buy a rifle or pistol for home defense, I wouldn't buy one that one that only has a 10 yard range for accuracy. I also wouldn't buy a rifle or pistol that shot 8 shots of FMJ that penetrate 20 plus inches at a velocity of a 9mm where the trajectory was unpredictable with one pull off the trigger.
That's essentially what you get in a shotgun. It's outdated technology. It is a smoothbore musket that can be loaded quickly.
That's essentially what you get in a shotgun. It's outdated technology. It is a smoothbore musket that can be loaded quickly.
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@thewheels
.308 Win
In my home, There' no need for more than a 10 yard shot anywhere. My longest shot may be 25 feet and that's even a stretch.
The trajectory is predictable at 15-20 feet from my 870 in my tests and produced typical patterns at that range.
It really depends on the home it will be used in as to how effective a tool it may or may not be. I strongly suggest anyone on the fence about using their shotgun for HD, be sure to test how theirs patterns at the distances they have in their home.
And DON'T use a rifled barrel for any buck shot. That will cause weird patterns every time.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
For the sake of argument, why limit yourself even if it's just for the home? A rifle with an inch and a half wound for each shot is just as effective and can be used outdoors too.
@thewheels
.308 Win
I'm failing to see how my chances that at least 1 or more of the 21 projectiles reaching vital organs with each trigger pull is a limitation.
I see the rifle with 1 projectile hitting a vital organ as limiting myself.
IMO, I want the most chances of stopping the threat in my home as soon as possible. My house provides no cover of any kind and my movement is limited by doors and walls. At best I have concealment. This is obviously not ideal and the threat needs to stopped pronto.
Outdoors, While the objective is plainly identical, my movement is not restricted and I may be able to find actual cover. Of course, the threat may as well. I'm not saying this is an either or situation but my rifles aren't setup or delegated to that indoor role and at my current home, I'm ok with that.
In the future, I may look to add a rifle suited to fill the HD role.
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You say chances. What if the intruder is hovering over your child's bed? Would you take that shot with the shotgun? If he has the wife in a headlock as a hostage, would you take the shot with the shotgun to his head?
The way I see it, it lowers your chances. Accuracy trumps spraying each and every time.
I'm not knocking you. I'm just pointing out things most don't think about.
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If you shoot someone outdoors in NY unless they are presenting an immediate deadly threat you will be in trouble.
Some guy breaking in your garage with no obvious firearm does no qualify.
What you will hear is: "You should have retreated and called 911."
Rule # 1. Never shoot anyone when you can escape.
Rule # 2. See Rule # 1.
Too much macho shit on gun blogs from people who have never been shot at or shot another human.
Some guy breaking in your garage with no obvious firearm does no qualify.
What you will hear is: "You should have retreated and called 911."
Rule # 1. Never shoot anyone when you can escape.
Rule # 2. See Rule # 1.
Too much macho shit on gun blogs from people who have never been shot at or shot another human.
Haha this guy's back.
@thewheels
.308 Win
Certainly plausible scenarios you present but honestly I can't say that I would actually pull the trigger in either using a rifle in place of a shotgun.
I'm not a bad shot but I know my limitations and while I may try, I can't fully understand the adrenaline factor involved with my children or wife in those situations. I don't even know how one would train to deal with the adrenaline going with loved ones under that type of threat.
In those scenarios though, my 1st thought wouldn't be I wish I had a rifle instead of a shotgun. It's possible it may cross my mind at some point but those are rarely static situations and a quick mind can make a difference.
SteyrAug posts some very... errr ... entertaining stuff, but like now is occasionally correct.
It doesn't matter what you use if you don't train with it.
How many of the "What's best" posters actually home defense train with their family with any of their firearms.
Would I take the shot at the guy over my kids bed or choking my wife? Hope I never find out.
Have we trained for it...yes.
Rather than ask what to use, ask do my wife and kids have the training to defend the home when I'm not there or the guys got me pinned.
It doesn't matter what you use if you don't train with it.
How many of the "What's best" posters actually home defense train with their family with any of their firearms.
Would I take the shot at the guy over my kids bed or choking my wife? Hope I never find out.
Have we trained for it...yes.
Rather than ask what to use, ask do my wife and kids have the training to defend the home when I'm not there or the guys got me pinned.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
He's just trolling. They are numerous situations where one may have to engage outside. A kidnapping, a gunfight in the home that leads outside where the perp is still firing at you, if someone committed a murder or rape in your home and is trying to get away, ect...
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Here troll. Read this.
Article 35 NY Penal Law | Defense of Justification | NY Laws
4. A private person acting on his or her own account may use physical
force, other than deadly physical force, upon another person when and to
the extent that he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to
effect an arrest or to prevent the escape from custody of a person whom
he or she reasonably believes to have committed an offense and who in
fact has committed such offense; and may use deadly physical force for
such purpose when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to:
(a) Defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she
reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical
force; or
(b) Effect the arrest of a person who has committed murder,
manslaughter in the first degree, robbery, forcible rape or forcible
criminal sexual act and who is in immediate flight therefrom.
@thewheels
.308 Win
Maybe the OP was asking for one .223 round to use for both hunting and HD? Or the round in the video?
I guess it depends on what your hunting?
I guess it depends on what your hunting?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
.223 Gold Dots work good in every video I've seen. Hunting, auto glass, ect.
@Podmonkey tested them and seemed happy with their accuracy.
I think all you did was prove his point.
In a home defense, if the intruder runs for the door your imminent threat has stopped.
In NY your duty is to retreat. Right... No, what's expected... Yes.
Kidnapping - please... when was the last HD kidnapping in NY.
Murder or rape in my home... yeah, he's dead; only his relatives will be around to sue not him.
In any case, it's gonna cost you the farm.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
How did I prove his point? Article 35 says that you don't have to retreat for certain circumstances and in fact authorizes you to pursue and effect an arrest for certain crimes and use deadly force if needed in doing so. And your kidnapping response is ridiculous. Whether it happens everyday or not is not the point. You don't think that drugged out convict parents with no custody haven't attempted to kidnap a child?
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Not looking to debate law with you, I just disagree.
4a) says defend yourself from imminent deadly threat. I don't think it relieves you of the duty to retreat if possible.
If your lawyer can convince a jury that the guy running away from you was still a threat, please give me his number
The only way I can see a confrontation outside the house (which is what Steyr was talking about) is if you continue to pursue the intruder outside becoming the aggressor.
As far as 4b) goes like I said (and I'll even include your kidnapping) if it happened in my house,
I guess I would be claiming temporary insanity because only his family could complain.
The point being you're up shits creek right or wrong and it will cost you the farm.
Back to the OP... I watched the video. Appears to be an infomercial for an ammo company.
All the people that I know using an AR for hunting/range/HD don't go out and buy a special bullet.
If the AR was last used for hunting them the A-max is the HD round.
If they came home from the range, the the FMJ is the HD round.
Personally, I prefer a 44 mag XTP target loads.
Your Honor, it wasn't a special round, just left over from the range.
4a) says defend yourself from imminent deadly threat. I don't think it relieves you of the duty to retreat if possible.
If your lawyer can convince a jury that the guy running away from you was still a threat, please give me his number
The only way I can see a confrontation outside the house (which is what Steyr was talking about) is if you continue to pursue the intruder outside becoming the aggressor.
As far as 4b) goes like I said (and I'll even include your kidnapping) if it happened in my house,
I guess I would be claiming temporary insanity because only his family could complain.
The point being you're up shits creek right or wrong and it will cost you the farm.
Back to the OP... I watched the video. Appears to be an infomercial for an ammo company.
All the people that I know using an AR for hunting/range/HD don't go out and buy a special bullet.
If the AR was last used for hunting them the A-max is the HD round.
If they came home from the range, the the FMJ is the HD round.
Personally, I prefer a 44 mag XTP target loads.
Your Honor, it wasn't a special round, just left over from the range.
Vati
9mm
Fenucho, should I assume you only have 1 mag for your AR? When I come from the range, I put the mag loaded with Winchester PDX1 back in the rifle and make it ready for HD. But that's just how I do it. '
Carry on
Vati
Carry on
Vati
I have 5 magazines loaded with 64gr Gold Dots. I keep them in an ammo can. When I come home I take the mags out and stick them on my bedroom bookshelf, until I get my chest rig at which time I will keep them in that. When I go to the range I just leave the loaded ones behind, I'm mostly using the 10 rounders at the range anyway. In fact I should get some more of those. If I'm practicing with the Gold Dots, and I will since they are not too expensive, I will refresh the mags when I get home. Even just at the range I run a variety of ammo types. I typically use cheap surplus stuff to warm up, switch to the 77gr OTMs for "serious" target work like our monthly matches (you all need to participate in @dsdmmat's matches, its fun and even decent training) and I'll switch back to the cheaper surplus when I'm ready to cut loose and shoot for shits n' giggles. I'm always trying new ammo out.
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dwa12479
.338 Win Mag
://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-56-federal-flight-con
You should check Federal Flight Control #1. The spread is almost nothing out to 20 yds, and its hard to argue with 15 thirty cal wound channels in a single direct hit.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I prefer a rifle. 0 to 500 yards. Not that I'd need more than 100 but it's there. Surgical precision at close range. Head shot....no problem. You can't do this with a shotgun. I'd be confident enough to do so with a rifle and a red dot. And why would I need 9 balls when 1 round would do the job? I can also fire faster and reload faster.
There was a time where I was shooting enough slugs out of the Mossberg that 50 yard headshots seemed doable. Slugs are tons of fun to shoot! Used to buy these all the time and have at it in the swamps
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I'd still prefer a modern rifle than a smooth bored high recoiling musket.
Those Fiocchis were usually the low recoil ones. Still massive amount of energy being sent down range but I could, and would, go through hundreds without major discomfort. Follow up shots came fast to. As good as 30 rounds of 5.56? No, not really but its an option. And as I say as much or more fun than a barrel of monkeys!
Uzi
.308 Win
I don't like the idea of using a typical 12 gauge pump shotgun for home defense. Not really the same planet, but an ar-15's recoil is very manageable and it's easy to control. I also don't like the idea of short stroking the pump action on a shotgun when tensions are high and every second counts. An ar-15 allows easy rapid firing succession with a larger capacity if and when you miss. A shotgun beyond popular belief DOES need to be aimed at a target and not just in the proximity of one. When you miss entirely just once, you have more work to do to reload another shot which increases the chances of malfunction and takes more time. The result is a gun that increases the risk of you dieing in a defensive situation. I also can recognize that if someone hasn't trained with their shotgun for defensive shooting and reloads, that it wouldn't work out half as well as it seems in their mind.
How did I miss this? Birdshot will just piss your attacker off. The pellets will not penetrate deep enough to strike vitals, bleeding will not be severe enough to cause rapid incapacitation from the drop on blood pressure. I won't argue this fact though, the evidence is out there if one cares to look. If not, no skin off my nose.