the coming storm

[prambo]

I see where @GOPerfect and @ArmedCorgi are both coming from. I think a distinction must be made between "different" storms, as it were.

If a political party hostile to the BOR and Constitution takes complete control of all 3 branches of government, let's call them....ummm...ah, Democrats, and the basics of our present lifestyle (electricity, ample food, the interwebz, the NFL , Hollyweird ) were to continue to function reasonably well, and "they" decide to crack down on dissent in any form, this country is toast. We're too comfortable and used to easy living - and I'm no exception. In that scenario, sooner or later the boxcars can be easily filled. Sure, some would revolt and certain members of .MIL and LE would not participate in the crackdown, but the only recourse would be guerilla and 4GW - totally asymmetric and small scale.

The other type of "storms" are less selective in who would be endangered - worldwide financial collapse, massive terrorist attacks using WMDs, a severe outbreak of a nasty pathogen, power grid collapse, or even localized but deadly weather patterns would leave every one in the same boat - fucked. Then, IMHO, it would be every family for itself, and only small cohesive groups in small rural communities (possessing the correct implements - the 3 "Bs") might survive. LE and the NG would stay home if their families might be in danger. Granted, this would have to be a catastrophic event, like the Yellowstone volcano popping its cork, but weird shit happens all the time.

Just my $0.02, and not worth that.

ETA: for a notion of what that post-apocalyptic world might really be like, check out Jim Kuntsler's "World Made By Hand" novels. IMHO, very realistic.

 

[GOPerfect]

And what happens when they are given incentives to stay when everyone else is starving? Many would to save their families.

A definite maybe. Interesting book I just finished.

Tomorrow war by JL Bourne. Talks a bit about this and the motivations and the control of people.

 

[Marine Cpl]

First of all, the military wouldn't come after the citizenry unprovoked like these ridiculous scenarios are set up here. It would start with a bunch of yahoos killing liberals. Law enforcement would be handling it. If it gets out of hand, the National Guard would step in. At that point it isn't war on the citizenry. It's just keeping the peace.

Now they start getting killed. Guess what? It's time to round up those crazy yahoos killing police and soldiers. They won't see it as a civil war. They'll see it as getting extremists who are killing their brothers and they would want to put a stop to it.

 

[GOPerfect]

First of all, the military wouldn't come after the citizenry unprovoked like these ridiculous scenarios are set up here. It would start with a bunch of yahoos killing liberals. Law enforcement would be handling it. If it gets out of hand, the National Guard would step in. At that point it isn't war on the citizenry. It's just keeping the peace.

Now they start getting killed. Guess what? It's time to round up those crazy yahoos killing police and soldiers. They won't see it as a civil war. They'll see it as getting extremists who are killing their brothers and they would want to put a stop to it.

I guess all depends on the scenario and the cause of the situation.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

First of all, the military wouldn't come after the citizenry unprovoked like these ridiculous scenarios are set up here. It would start with a bunch of yahoos killing liberals. Law enforcement would be handling it. If it gets out of hand, the National Guard would step in. At that point it isn't war on the citizenry. It's just keeping the peace.

Now they start getting killed. Guess what? It's time to round up those crazy yahoos killing police and soldiers. They won't see it as a civil war. They'll see it as getting extremists who are killing their brothers and they would want to put a stop to it.

I see what you are saying and agree, but I just don't think it would go down that way.
I don't see citizens killing nat guard and I don't see nat guard killing citizens. Period.

 

[Jmac00]

Let me put it to you this way. The National Guard is deployed because of minor unrests. Things aren't bad yet. They are out there to try to keep the peace. A bunch of Billy Bobs decide to snipe a Soldier. The soldier's brains get blown on their faces. The buddy that they've trained with their whole careers.

The way it works is your buddy comes first. They'll see their buddy dead on the ground and come for you.

They aren't going to think politics. All they'll know it's that a bunch of yahoos are killing their brothers.

just remember, ALL these people have a home. They will be away from said home if a civil war breaks out. NOW they realize their family is in danger? How long before they stand down and go home to defend their families

 

[Marine Cpl]

just remember, ALL these people have a home. They will be away from said home if a civil war breaks out. NOW they realize their family is in danger? How long before they stand down and go home to defend their families

Their families would be taken care of in this ridiculous scenario. By me, West Point and Camp Smith is more than enough in size to house families.

But like I said before, how is this so called Civil War going to start? Who will be the targets that the people will be fighting against? It won't be the military. It would be politicians and the cops that protect them. After that starts happening and Martial Law is declared, the National Guard would be activated to keep the peace. So who will fire on these soldiers? Probably nobody. Those that do would be eliminated just like those that fired upon the police previously.

National Guard Soldiers aren't just going to take people firing and killing them when all they are trying to do is keep the peace. And the average Joe isn't going to go head to head with soldiers.

It'll never happen.

 

[dubleuhb]

To many fat and happy people, take away the everyday conveniences and the masses will comply happily to get some sort of normalcy back. Most don't give a crap about the country and what happens as long as they get their crumbs from big government.

Only mass dissent from military, national guard and LEOs can we have any hope to right the ship. If no one is there to enforce we may have a chance, but there will be such a power struggle in the meantime it would be total chaos for who knows how long. In no way do I believe pockets of resistance no matter how well organized will lead to change. It will only be another country in disarray, lots of unnecessary suffering, death and loss of liberty.

 

[Marine Cpl]

To many fat and happy people, take away the everyday conveniences and the masses will comply happily to get some sort of normalcy back. Most don't give a crap about the country and what happens as long as they get their crumbs from big government.

Only mass dissent from military, national guard and LEOs can we have any hope to right the ship. If no one is there to enforce we may have a chance, but there will be such a power struggle in the meantime it would be total chaos for who knows how long. In no way do I believe pockets of resistance no matter how well organized will lead to change. It will only be another country in disarray, lots of unnecessary suffering, death and loss of liberty.

Yep. More laws would be passed and cops will enforce them. Those organized small pockets of resistance would be killed and or arrested as criminals. And guess what? The people would want them to do that so they can get back to their normal lives of drinking beer and going to the movies.

The majority of the people don't care about guns. Any other issues like fiscal issues would be minor inconveniences.

They'll just repeat and complain to one another by the water cooler, " And so the wind blows!"

 

[dubleuhb]

I don't know what it is going to take but how long can we survive as a country with what is going on now?

With a media so vested in destroying this administration and the left willing to do anything and everything to destroy anyone in their way it's all going to come to a head at some point. At some point in the not so distant future we will be thrust into some kind of mass civil disobedience I fear. The left has shown their cards, they want full blown socialism, those of us who love life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness will be ignored, left to go along to get along or else unless something changes soon. Government has grown way to big, there is no accountability within it anymore. It's a sad and embarrassing time in America, not sure how we come out of this as the founders envisioned.

 

[prambo]

If another, so far undiscussed here, layer of complexity were to be added, where we're "going" as a nation would be much more complex and, for sure, much more unpredictable.....or IMHO perhaps more predictable.......

 

[MadScientist]

It it be possible that the storm in the form of a civil war is multiphase? For instance I think we have it all in our heads that it’s this sudden thing with some spark and then instant lines are drawn in the sand?

But what if it’s progressive? What if some activates resistance groups, like a gun control law, followed by economic collapse, followed by mass civil unrest? It’s one thing to be fighting militia groups with clear intentions. It’s another to be simultaneously trying to quell general civil unrest while at the same time trying to fend off coordinated attacks from trained militias with heavy veteran makeup. It’s not unreasonable to think this could be an incredibly tough situation for even the US police and national guard to handle

 

[Catskillkid]

It it be possible that the storm in the form of a civil war is multiphase? For instance I think we have it all in our heads that it’s this sudden thing with some spark and then instant lines are drawn in the sand?

But what if it’s progressive? What if some activates resistance groups, like a gun control law, followed by economic collapse, followed by mass civil unrest? It’s one thing to be fighting militia groups with clear intentions. It’s another to be simultaneously trying to quell general civil unrest while at the same time trying to fend off coordinated attacks from trained militias with heavy veteran makeup. It’s not unreasonable to think this could be an incredibly tough situation for even the US police and national guard to handle

That's the exact scenario I see going down. It's not going to be grey vs blue like it was in 1860. It'll be many different groups (none in uniform) jockeying for power among themselves and the government

 

[GOPerfect]

I think if this Storm does the United States, it is going to be much worse than most people can even imagine.

The VAST majority of Americans will have no idea how to do anything, they do not know how to fight, hunt, fish, garden, forage; most will be completely useless and they will die.

Most don't even own a gun. They have no extra food on hand, no water. Most would not even think of using the toilet water when the water runs dry.

They do not know how to start a fire. They do not know how to find treasures among the garbage.

As for fighting. Holy shit, a huge majority could not even fight enough to get out of a wet paper bag.

 

[holdover]

with all the democRATic bullshit about the Kavanaugh nomination.

with Project Veritas exposing the deep state on MANY occasions

and with the upcoming mid-term election

if the democrATS take back the Senate in 45 days

How long before this country is in a civil war, an actual shooting war?

I seriously believe the long term plan of the globalists is the break up of the US into manageable parts.

 

[GOPerfect]

I seriously believe the long term plan of the globalists is the break up of the US into manageable parts.

Um, yeah, 100%!

 

[prambo]

It it be possible that the storm in the form of a civil war is multiphase? For instance I think we have it all in our heads that it’s this sudden thing with some spark and then instant lines are drawn in the sand?

But what if it’s progressive? What if some activates resistance groups, like a gun control law, followed by economic collapse, followed by mass civil unrest? It’s one thing to be fighting militia groups with clear intentions. It’s another to be simultaneously trying to quell general civil unrest while at the same time trying to fend off coordinated attacks from trained militias with heavy veteran makeup. It’s not unreasonable to think this could be an incredibly tough situation for even the US police and national guard to handle

That's the exact scenario I see going down. It's not going to be grey vs blue like it was in 1860. It'll be many different groups (none in uniform) jockeying for power among themselves and the government

Add in a metric crapton of opportunistic leftist goons and well trained, but lone wolf, conservatives and you've got a real shitstorm.

 

[holdover]

The National guard and law enforcement are not enough to stop a civil war . A true civil war has no boundaries. It will affect everyone regardless of their job. Just like every other civil war, officers would defect with men and equipment , These things have happened already many times over. Even current events like Egypt and Syria .The main link in the chain of command is shattered at the top , multiple leaders emerge claiming rightful power. A civil war starts at the top where the leadership is fractured as opposed to a revolution where the peasants overthrow an oppressive government.

Vietnam was also a civil war The military split, the civilian leadership split, The people chose sides.

 

[Marine Cpl]

The National guard and law enforcement are not enough to stop a civil war . A true civil war has no boundaries. It will affect everyone regardless of their job. Just like every other civil war, officers would defect with men and equipment , These things have happened already many times over. Even current events like Egypt and Syria .The main link in the chain of command is shattered at the top , multiple leaders emerge claiming rightful power. A civil war starts at the top where the leadership is fractured as opposed to a revolution where the peasants overthrow an oppressive government.

Vietnam was also a civil war The military split, the civilian leadership split, The people chose sides.

In those countries, law enforcement and police have nothing to lose. Here they'll lose their jobs, pensions, cars, and homes. You can't compare the two.

 

[holdover]

Except for their familys homes paychecks pensions. You think in other countries the police and military's don't have them?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Except for their familys homes paychecks pensions. You think in other countries the police and military's don't have them?

Not like here.

 

[holdover]

If the leadership splits, everything spilts with it.

 

[holdover]

Not like here.

What do you mean?

 

[holdover]

If your a police officer and the government splits at the top , who pays you? where does the money come from?

 

[Marine Cpl]

What do you mean?

A cop in Vietnam doesn't get paid what a cop here gets paid. He also doesn't have a 3500 dollar a month mortgage and a kid in college. His daughter isn't going on a class trip to France.

They get paid peanuts.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If your a police officer and the government splits at the top , who pays you? where does the money come from?

Why would the government split at the top? We are talking about a group of people talking about insurrection. The government is still alive and tickling. They'll use their police and Guard units to quell the insurrection.

 

[holdover]

A cop in Vietnam doesn't get paid what a cop here gets paid. He also doesn't have a 3500 dollar a month mortgage and a kid in college. His daughter isn't going on a class trip to France.

They get paid peanuts.

He gets paid a living wage in his country. he lives a shithole that he is content with, He loves his kids and wife as much as every other person. Your putting a dollar value on his life . It doesn't matter if he lives in a car. its his car . His kids his country

 

[ArmedCorgi]

A cop in Vietnam doesn't get paid what a cop here gets paid. He also doesn't have a 3500 dollar a month mortgage and a kid in college. His daughter isn't going on a class trip to France.

They get paid peanuts.

Cost of living is relative. That argument makes no sense.

 

[holdover]

Why would the government split at the top? We are talking about a group of people talking about insurrection. The government is still alive and tickling.

OK were talking apples and oranges here. A civil war is a fracturing at the top leadership , an insurrection is something different.

 

[Marine Cpl]

He gets paid a living wage in his country. he lives a shithole that he is content with, He loves his kids and wife as much as every other person. Your putting a dollar value on his life . It doesn't matter if he lives in a car. its his car . His kids his country

That's why they rob tourists and prostitutes. Love has nothing to do with it. He has less to lose.