Things are heating up in the Donbass
- Thread starter holdover
- Start date
Does anyone else find the irony of likely battles in 2023 where you have a battle in Ukraine with German tank mounted mg42s likely facing some russian troops with mosin nagants.
MothMan
.338 Win Mag
"Ukraine is about out of its own soldiers and weapons."
"The tank proffer is, sad to say (for the dignity of our country), a joke, kind of a last feeble pretense before the whole thing ends in ignominy for the “Joe Biden” team — whoever that actually is. The repercussions are liable to be ugly for our country, not necessarily more military trouble in other lands (which we probably lack the capacity to engage in now), but something more personal: the collapse of the dollar as the world’s reserve currency and a vicious loss of purchasing power here at home. That would provoke a situation worse than the Great Depression of the 1930s, and that’s probably where things are going.
The Ukraine misadventure will disappear from America’s collective consciousness in a New York minute and a Fourth Turning jamboree of serious domestic political disorder will commence in short order. If you think “Joe Biden’s” term in office has been a disaster so far, just wait. You ain’t seen nuttin yet."
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Yep Ukraine cannot sustain these losses indefinitely. They just can't. There are only so many military aged males fit for duty around.
I've heard of Ukraine authorities forcibly going around and grabbing older unfit Ukrainians at gun point out of their homes to conscript them. That's not a good indicator of where their army is.
LOL I had a similar thought about Germany sinking Liberty ships in the Atlantic and the potential for German supply lines becoming expanded targets. History repeats itself with a twist.
It's like the global handlers have opened the history books (and maybe the Book of Revelations) as their playbook.
ArmedCorgi
.475 A&M Magnum
Oh, so you mean no one in this thread really knows what's going on over there...gotcha.
Simple defense based on geography and demographics is a reasonable objective. The geography between Berlin and Moscow is essentially flat and open which invited invaders and makes defense difficult. Russia is literally a dying nation (more deaths than births) and the number of military age men is going to decrease quickly in a decade. The Russians want smaller borders they can defend with the projected number of military aged men.
This action was predicted by at least one writer many years ago. The actions by the US to include Ukraine in NATO may have been the immediate cause but the move by the Russians was inevitable. The problem for NATO is they wouldn't stop at Ukraine and would advance halfway into Poland to achieve their defensible border objectives.
Ukrainian crews may have been already trained on these tanks and they can appear sooner then people think. I am very suspicious of government officials, media and Pentagon going out of their way to say it's months or a year away. Makes it easier to cross another Russian red line.
Remember these:
NATO will not spread East.
Don't worry about Baltic states joining NATO, they are too small to be a threat.
We have no plans to accept Ukraine into NATO any time soon.
We will only supply defensive weapons.
We will not let Ukraine strike targets inside Russia.
........ and on and on and on.
Remember these:
NATO will not spread East.
Don't worry about Baltic states joining NATO, they are too small to be a threat.
We have no plans to accept Ukraine into NATO any time soon.
We will only supply defensive weapons.
We will not let Ukraine strike targets inside Russia.
........ and on and on and on.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Nations do not have the right to tell other nations which alliances they will join.
Russia promised to respect the sovereignty of Ukraine in exchange for them giving up their nuclear weapons. Turns out an agreement with Russia isn't worth the paper it's printed on. I bet Ukraine really wishes they had those nukes now.
If, as you say, Russia is justified in invading Ukraine to prevent the expansion of NATO, then wouldn't that mean NATO is justified in invading to prevent the spread of Russia ?
Why shouldn't NATO give Putin the Desert Storm treatment ? Shock and Awe his ass all the way back to Moscow ?
Jmac00
.475 A&M Magnum
mainly because that crazy ass Putin would use small tactical nukes, he simple will refuse to 'lose' to a bunch of untrained farmers
and sending Ukraine a frontline battle tank is a huge mistake. the corruption is so deep, those shitheads will sell them to russia and china for pennies on the dollar.
Personally, I have had it with bidens money laundering schemes, everyone knows what's going on, yet the thieves in congress, from both parties, let this charade continue.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
nobody in this country knows whats going on over there with any certainty.
Unless your privy to some inside information its pretty hard to ""Know"" . just educated guess'es
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Agree. Ukraine has been the marker in a tug-of-war between Russia and the EU (NATO) for some time.
Reading a bit on the Euromaidan protests of November 2013, the protesters tactics sound quite a lot like those of Antifa here.
there's not one bit of this that hasn't been manipulated from multiple sides.
9 years ago
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ArmedCorgi
.475 A&M Magnum
I just find it "odd".
Russian Federation is the legal successor of the Soviet Union, thus an inheritor of Soviet nuclear arsenal and nuclear arms treaties made by the Soviet Union. Ukraine has nothing to do with it. After collapse of the Soviet Union, by insistence of Western powers, Soviet nuclear arsenal was transferred to Russian Federation to assure nuclear security and continuation of the treaties.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Ukraine possessed a significant part of the Soviet nuclear arsenal at the end of the cold War.
The Russian Federation can claim whatever it wants, but Ukraine had possession.
They agreed to transfer them to to the Russians in exchange for guarantees of their sovereignty from the Russians, the US, and the UK.
Largely because they couldn't afford to maintain or secure them at the time.
In theory we are obligated to defend them from this invasion because of that agreement.
But, in any case, it was obviously a bad idea. Certainly they never would have been invaded if they still had a few dozen ICBMs.
1341
.45 acp
At this point nearly a year in, it's a fallacy if you think that the Ukrainian military is a bunch of untrained farmers. Former and active military will have to agree that based on performance so far that they are well trained, well equipped and seemed to be well lead. When you see videos of them in action, uniforms are of a uniform pattern, equipment is correct for the weather conditions, they look well nourished and they certainly look as if morale is positive. The soldiers seemed to have no problem operating Soviet bloc, American, British, French and German weapon systems effectively. They also seem to have no problem taking modern civilian technology (drones, cameras) and adapting it to the battlefield.
I can and I will agree to just about everything that you posted. The only part that I might have an issue with is using weapon systems of other nations. The reason I say this, at this point they have not received anything of massive advances in technology. We will see shortly how adaptive they are, once they get the leopard tanks in the Abram tanks. The Bradley's is well is not a simplistic vehicle.
From many of the reports that I have read, and I take all reporting with a grain of salt, their biggest issue is they are running out of people to fight. The Ukraine Army is losing a lot of soldiers. As for being well fed this will only last as long as foreign governments continue to feed them.
Same with ammo to stock all of their weapon systems, I saw a report that ammunition is running very very low. And again I take these reports with a grain of salt, no one seems to want to report the real news in the real numbers anything in this war.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
To be fair, modern farmers are used to operating very complex equipment too.
These aren't old bumpkins farming with an old WD45 and a manually operated plow. They are used to GPS guided planting equipment and so forth.
Training on a complex weapon system may not be difficult for them.
And that would be the new recruits. The original military have been training with NATO nations for years.
Possibly. Like I stated earlier in this thread, years ago, I trained on much of this equipment. Not as simple as some think.
Maybe they will fast learner's. Maybe. These tanks are very involved. Maybe it will work for them quickly, maybe not.
I understand your point and I don't disagree. The problem is Ukrainian troops are being trained in Europe for 6-9 month now and it's not basic training. They were already trained soldiers going in. It's possible they were being trained on Western tanks, knowing NATO's goal to prolong this war as much as possible.
Absolutely. And that's why I said possibly. A friend of mine went to the Ukraine 3 years ago, to train them on a bunch of different artillery systems. He was deployed there for just under a year. He never told me exactly what they were training on, but I do know my bud Westfield artillery, so I just put two and two together.
There are a bunch of Ukraine soldiers training here in the states is well on different Air defense artillery systems. So yeah it is possible that they will be ready when this equipment shows up.
There are a bunch of Ukraine soldiers training here in the states is well on different Air defense artillery systems. So yeah it is possible that they will be ready when this equipment shows up.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
What??
Nuclear arsenal in what was Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic was aimed at NATO, not Russia. U.S. actually agreed to pay the expense of dismentaling and transporting it out of Ukraine. Ukraine didn't object because RUSSIA agreed to use its nuclear arsenal if there was a nuclear attack by NATO on Ukraine. Ukraine and Russia were members of the same alliance at the time, so nuclear war between them wasn't in the realm of any agreements.
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holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
If People think that those western tanks are a game changer. The HIMARS was supposed to be a game changer too. they dont understand the battlefield that they will be operating in.
those tanks, and tankers were designed and taught to follow a doctrine of combined arms operations . US forces in Iraq absolutely smashed the shit out of Iraqi armor , one of reasons was because the air power smashed the shit out of the Iraqi air power, command and control ,radars artillery and ammo stores. Before the Abrams (or as some call it Abraham's ) ever engaged them. Thats the way it was designed to work and it worked like a champ.
The western tanks will be facing an enemy that has local air superiority, which means they will be facing helicopters , jet planes and possibly heavy bombers and heavy artillery . they will be facing enemy infantry in the woods and citys with effective anti armor missiles. they will be facing an enemy that isnt blind.
They have no air cover and they are out numbered. Effectively , its a battalion vs the entire Russian army
remember the German tiger tank in Russia? rounds would just bounce off the front of the tank , they would blow the turrent off a T34 at 2000 yards . But there wasnt enough of them to change the battle or the course of the war . The Russians attacked them from 3 sides and one of them would get a kill . Ie they worked around it . This is similar .
The Abrams is probably the best tank in the world , 2nd to none. but if you dont use them right , its a lot of expensive scrap metal
Its a combined arms team. it works like a football or hockey team , everyone has to be on the same page. I dont care how good your quarter back is , if you put him in the game by himself , and no players, he is going to get the shit kicked out of him
they have to learn how to move using overwatch, bounding overwatch, how to react to enemy fire , call in fire , they have to know where the other players are without seeing them .
The Americans and German and British people are going to get an eye opening lesson on modern warfare . and they are going to look at the pictures with their jaw dropped , saying what the hell happened.
those tanks, and tankers were designed and taught to follow a doctrine of combined arms operations . US forces in Iraq absolutely smashed the shit out of Iraqi armor , one of reasons was because the air power smashed the shit out of the Iraqi air power, command and control ,radars artillery and ammo stores. Before the Abrams (or as some call it Abraham's ) ever engaged them. Thats the way it was designed to work and it worked like a champ.
The western tanks will be facing an enemy that has local air superiority, which means they will be facing helicopters , jet planes and possibly heavy bombers and heavy artillery . they will be facing enemy infantry in the woods and citys with effective anti armor missiles. they will be facing an enemy that isnt blind.
They have no air cover and they are out numbered. Effectively , its a battalion vs the entire Russian army
remember the German tiger tank in Russia? rounds would just bounce off the front of the tank , they would blow the turrent off a T34 at 2000 yards . But there wasnt enough of them to change the battle or the course of the war . The Russians attacked them from 3 sides and one of them would get a kill . Ie they worked around it . This is similar .
The Abrams is probably the best tank in the world , 2nd to none. but if you dont use them right , its a lot of expensive scrap metal
Its a combined arms team. it works like a football or hockey team , everyone has to be on the same page. I dont care how good your quarter back is , if you put him in the game by himself , and no players, he is going to get the shit kicked out of him
they have to learn how to move using overwatch, bounding overwatch, how to react to enemy fire , call in fire , they have to know where the other players are without seeing them .
The Americans and German and British people are going to get an eye opening lesson on modern warfare . and they are going to look at the pictures with their jaw dropped , saying what the hell happened.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The US interest was that we were concerned Ukraine wouldn't be able to keep them secure.
We were concerned they might be stolen, or disappear.
But, that doesn't change the fact that I bet Ukraine wishes they'd never taken that deal now.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Yup. watch what happens to those awesome German Leopards.
They might have a 5:1 kill ratio just like panthers to t34 but in the end it won't matter.
Nobody really asked them. It wasn't their decision, nor did they believe at the time that these nukes belonged to them.