Things are heating up in the Donbass

[spat]

Both sides are downplaying their own losses and inflating the losses of their enemy.

The conflict is an absolute modern hellscape and there are a shit ton of people on both sides getting killed and wounded. 1 month of this war probably has more casualties than the US in a decade of GWOT.

Entire battle groups are getting decimated and becoming combat ineffective. That hasn't happened on a scale like this in a long time.

But yes, Russia is winning (at a high cost) and Ukraine is losing (at a high cost).

Neither side is going to win this.

Both will *claim* victory, but in reality there will be no winners.

At this point, even if Russia took Kiev it would only be a Phyrric victory.

Russia will have gained some territory, but no where near enough to justify the damage they have done to their population and economy, and they will likely end up with Ukraine in NATO.
Since preventing that was what they originally claimed was their goal, that will be a loss too.

Ukraine isn't getting all their territory back, so they aren't going to "win" either. But they will still exist, and will probably be NATO members when this is all done.

 

[Defilade]

Ukraine does not exist LEGALLY NOR HAVE OFFICIAL BORDERS...

A forbidden UN report: Ukraine had no registered borders - the state of Ukraine practically and factually does not exist on a legal basis

The UN Secretary General has said that Ukraine has not applied for border registration since 1991, so the state of Ukraine does not exist....

On 07.04.2014, the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon made a frightening statement, the dissemination of which is prohibited in the Ukrainian media and on the Internet. The conflict between the two countries was raised at the meeting of the UN Security Council. The following conclusion was drawn from it:
Ukraine has not registered its borders since 25.12.1991 The registration of Ukraine's borders as a sovereign state was not carried out at the UN.

Therefore, it can be assumed that Russia does not commit any violations against Ukraine. According to the CIS treaty, the territory of Ukraine is an administrative region of the USSR. Therefore, no one can be held responsible for separatism and the forcible change of Ukrainian borders.

Source

Unleash Your Entrepreneurial Spirit: 10 Online Business Ideas for Success

Complete Guide to Earnings, Jobs & Business | Gift Card Tips

expmx.com

⚡️Ukrainian Collaboration with Germany in World War II (1941 – 1945) - HISTORY
---->>>>

Ukrainian Collaboration with Germany in World War II (1941 – 1945) - HISTORY

>> Why did Ukrainians collaborate with Germany? In this video you hear about the origins of Ukrainian ultranationalism and factions as the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and its split: >

rumble.com

THE NAZI SS & UKRAINE -
A LONG RELATION ENDS WITH THE DENAZIFICATION
---->>>

THE NAZI SS & UKRAINE - A LONG RELATION ENDS WITH THE DENAZIFICATION

It's written in history. It's in their DNA. It's heritage. BUT NO NAZIS IN UKRAINE, MSM REPORT.. #DonbassDevushka "The volunteers of Ukraine" - DENAZIFICATION - LEGAL BASIS - UN Charter Chapter-17 ---

rumble.com

⚡️DENAZIFICATION - LEGAL BASIS - UN Charter Chapter-17
---->>>>

DENAZIFICATION - LEGAL BASIS - UN Charter Chapter-17

BOOM! How Articles 106 & 107 of the UNITED NATIONS CHARTER LEGALIZE Putin's EVERY ACTION in Ukraine! and BEYOND!!! - Articles 106 and 107 of the UN Charter give Russia, as the legal successor of the v

rumble.com

 

[Mosinitis]

Neither side is going to win this.

Both will *claim* victory, but in reality there will be no winners.

At this point, even if Russia took Kiev it would only be a Phyrric victory.

Russia will have gained some territory, but no where near enough to justify the damage they have done to their population and economy, and they will likely end up with Ukraine in NATO.
Since preventing that was what they originally claimed was their goal, that will be a loss too.

Ukraine isn't getting all their territory back, so they aren't going to "win" either. But they will still exist, and will probably be NATO members when this is all done.

WWII (Great Patriotic War) resulted in much bigger losses, destruction and very little territorial gains for the Soviet Union. Very few people call it a Pyrrhic victory.

 

[tirwin1]

View attachment 251871
Ukraine does not exist LEGALLY NOR HAVE OFFICIAL BORDERS...

A forbidden UN report: Ukraine had no registered borders - the state of Ukraine practically and factually does not exist on a legal basis

The UN Secretary General has said that Ukraine has not applied for border registration since 1991, so the state of Ukraine does not exist....

On 07.04.2014, the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon made a frightening statement, the dissemination of which is prohibited in the Ukrainian media and on the Internet. The conflict between the two countries was raised at the meeting of the UN Security Council. The following conclusion was drawn from it:
Ukraine has not registered its borders since 25.12.1991 The registration of Ukraine's borders as a sovereign state was not carried out at the UN.

Therefore, it can be assumed that Russia does not commit any violations against Ukraine. According to the CIS treaty, the territory of Ukraine is an administrative region of the USSR. Therefore, no one can be held responsible for separatism and the forcible change of Ukrainian borders.

Source

Unleash Your Entrepreneurial Spirit: 10 Online Business Ideas for Success

Complete Guide to Earnings, Jobs & Business | Gift Card Tips

expmx.com

⚡️Ukrainian Collaboration with Germany in World War II (1941 – 1945) - HISTORY
---->>>>

Ukrainian Collaboration with Germany in World War II (1941 – 1945) - HISTORY

>> Why did Ukrainians collaborate with Germany? In this video you hear about the origins of Ukrainian ultranationalism and factions as the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and its split: >

rumble.com

THE NAZI SS & UKRAINE -
A LONG RELATION ENDS WITH THE DENAZIFICATION
---->>>

THE NAZI SS & UKRAINE - A LONG RELATION ENDS WITH THE DENAZIFICATION

It's written in history. It's in their DNA. It's heritage. BUT NO NAZIS IN UKRAINE, MSM REPORT.. #DonbassDevushka "The volunteers of Ukraine" - DENAZIFICATION - LEGAL BASIS - UN Charter Chapter-17 ---

rumble.com

⚡️DENAZIFICATION - LEGAL BASIS - UN Charter Chapter-17
---->>>>

DENAZIFICATION - LEGAL BASIS - UN Charter Chapter-17

BOOM! How Articles 106 & 107 of the UNITED NATIONS CHARTER LEGALIZE Putin's EVERY ACTION in Ukraine! and BEYOND!!! - Articles 106 and 107 of the UN Charter give Russia, as the legal successor of the v

rumble.com

Ok but is Ukraine a registered corporation like the US?

 

[spat]

WWII (Great Patriotic War) resulted in much bigger losses, destruction and very little territorial gains for the Soviet Union. Very few people call it a Pyrrhic victory.

It was an existential threat to the soviets. They were being invaded. A loss would have meant the end of the Soviet union.

Can't have a phyrric victory when the alternative is utter destruction.

Also, Russia of 2024 is not the Soviet union of 1940. The demographics of nearly every developed country in the world are drastically different.

Population growth is leveling off, or even declining.

The Soviet union in the 1950s could easily afford to replace the men lost in the war. That's not so easy to do in 2024 when fertility rates are now below replacement levels.

In the coming decades most developed countries are going to struggle with the demographic shift. The war casualties are going to make that problem much more acute for Russia.

 

[Mosinitis]

British asshole went to fight in Ukraine and was murdered by Australian asshole. Rot in hell, you piece of shit.

 

[Robin]

Russian war crimes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Defilade]

Ok but is Ukraine a registered corporation like the US?

Yeah... Biden INC

 

[libertysnake]

Not sure in general how much of anything is real anymore on the internet, but was watching this on youtube the other day of western volunteers assaulting trenches in Ukraine. Crazy shit.

 

[holdover]

Neither side is going to win this.

Its thinking like this that will get a lot more people killed for no reason. Russia has won, It hasnt finished the job yet, but the outcome is unavoidable, just a question of time and cost. Its like Germany in 42-43,

Both will *claim* victory, but in reality there will be no winners.

There is going to be a very clear winner here. If you were following the fighting , you would know this to be true Ukraine is falling back everyday, complete units destroyed , surrendered or retreating .

At this point, even if Russia took Kiev it would only be a Phyrric victory.

Far from it , There are major strategic victories right now, Like the Crimea and its ports and the black sea fleet . Control of the gas lines to Europe which run through Ukraine, the natural resources from Ukraine including the best, most productive farm lands in Europe , The liberation of the Donbas, which was a major military victory , the denial of NATO from establishing itself in the Ukraine ,

Russia will have gained some territory, but no where near enough to justify the damage they have done to their population and economy, and they will likely end up with Ukraine in NATO.
Since preventing that was what they originally claimed was their goal, that will be a loss too.

Russia will end up with half of Ukraine if not all of it . Ukraine will never be a part of NATO period. that is an unacceptable term to the Russians , they are willing to fight ww3 to prevent it , they proved it already.

Ukraine isn't getting all their territory back, so they aren't going to "win" either. But they will still exist, and will probably be NATO members when this is all done.

They are not getting any of their territory back , None. Whats the deal going to be? Mr Putin we are prepared to offer you Half of everything you now own in exchange for a peace agreement ? LOL , and well stop the fighting allow NATO in and rearm and take back what is rightfully ours in 10-15 years? or what? what the hell can they do? They cant even stop them now.


One thing you fail to grasp, is that weapons wont win the war . People do. It takes a long time to make good soldiers, NCO's and officers , It takes a long time to make an effective combat unit, those things cant be replaced as rapidly as Train cars full of ammo.

Right now Ukraine is fighting with mostly conscripts , and they cant hold the line , Nothing is going to change that fact

Russians have entered the suburbs of Pokrovsk, This is a key strategic transportation hub controlling most rail lines and roads to the east , the fall Of Pokrovsk will make maintaining the army eastward extremely difficult and take a lot more time to go around it , the forces in the east are going to have to fall back to thier own supply lines to stay alive. Pokrovsk,Is critical to supplying the front and its going to fall in 3-4 weeks minimum.

Even if ukraine were given 250-500 tanks, they just dont have the trained men ,the officers ,and the trained maintenance to field them in combat , They dont have the ability to move the ridiculous amounts of fuel to the front on a daily basis to sustain them . And they dont have the 2 years minimum to build brigades with them . they dont

If trump thinks hes going to negotiate a peace deal, Hes wrong. Trump can end the war by shutting off all aid to Ukraine and calling it a day, Thats the best deal he can get . Trump can send all the weapons he wants , He can empty our military but it wont change the outcome .

 

[holdover]

Not sure in general how much of anything is real anymore on the internet, but was watching this on youtube the other day of western volunteers assaulting trenches in Ukraine. Crazy shit.

Thats pretty intense shit

 

[spat]

Its thinking like this that will get a lot more people killed for no reason. Russia has won, It hasnt finished the job yet, but the outcome is unavoidable, just a question of time and cost. Its like Germany in 42-43,

There is going to be a very clear winner here. If you were following the fighting , you would know this to be true Ukraine is falling back everyday, complete units destroyed , surrendered or retreating .


Far from it , There are major strategic victories right now, Like the Crimea and its ports and the black sea fleet . Control of the gas lines to Europe which run through Ukraine, the natural resources from Ukraine including the best, most productive farm lands in Europe , The liberation of the Donbas, which was a major military victory , the denial of NATO from establishing itself in the Ukraine ,

Russia will end up with half of Ukraine if not all of it . Ukraine will never be a part of NATO period. that is an unacceptable term to the Russians , they are willing to fight ww3 to prevent it , they proved it already.

They are not getting any of their territory back , None. Whats the deal going to be? Mr Putin we are prepared to offer you Half of everything you now own in exchange for a peace agreement ? LOL , and well stop the fighting allow NATO in and rearm and take back what is rightfully ours in 10-15 years? or what? what the hell can they do? They cant even stop them now.


One thing you fail to grasp, is that weapons wont win the war . People do. It takes a long time to make good soldiers, NCO's and officers , It takes a long time to make an effective combat unit, those things cant be replaced as rapidly as Train cars full of ammo.

Right now Ukraine is fighting with mostly conscripts , and they cant hold the line , Nothing is going to change that fact

Russians have entered the suburbs of Pokrovsk, This is a key strategic transportation hub controlling most rail lines and roads to the east , the fall Of Pokrovsk will make maintaining the army eastward extremely difficult and take a lot more time to go around it , the forces in the east are going to have to fall back to thier own supply lines to stay alive. Pokrovsk,Is critical to supplying the front and its going to fall in 3-4 weeks minimum.

Even if ukraine were given 250-500 tanks, they just dont have the trained men ,the officers ,and the trained maintenance to field them in combat , They dont have the ability to move the ridiculous amounts of fuel to the front on a daily basis to sustain them . And they dont have the 2 years minimum to build brigades with them . they dont

If trump thinks hes going to negotiate a peace deal, Hes wrong. Trump can end the war by shutting off all aid to Ukraine and calling it a day, Thats the best deal he can get . Trump can send all the weapons he wants , He can empty our military but it wont change the outcome .

Or, and I'm just spit balling here, Trump could dictate terms to both sides and tell them they're going to take it and at least *act* like they like it.

He'll tell Zelensky that he has to give up the territory the Russians occupy, but he can keep any Russian territory he has gained, and he *will* be fast tracked into NATO. He can accept that, or he can go it alone with whatever meager help the EU can spare.

And he'll tell Putin he has to take that deal, or the US will eliminate all the Russian heavy equipment in Ukraine, and let them take as much territory back as they can manage.

You don't seem to understand the sheer power disparity here. NATO could eliminate all the Russian air defenses in Ukraine in 24 hours, and probably destroy 90% of their artillery and armor inside of a week with airpower alone without suffering hardly any casualties.

And nobody in NATO gives a flying fuck what Russia considers "unacceptable" at this point.

 

[holdover]

You don't seem to understand the sheer power disparity here.

I think your the one that doesn't understand

stand . Russia isnt just going to stand down while the US attacks them , They will launch a full scale nuclear response if they have to.

NATO could eliminate all the Russian air defenses in Ukraine in 24 hours

I wonder how that would be possible since thier air defenses can shoot down most of our missiles. They have the worlds best anti air systems , thats going to be a problem .

And nobody in NATO gives a flying fuck what Russia considers "unacceptable" at this point.

And thats why theres a war going on now. Because nobody could give a fuck .

And he'll tell Putin he has to take that deal, or the US will eliminate all the Russian heavy equipment in Ukraine,

LOL, and after Putin stops laughing , he will say go right ahead . Just dont look up .

Or, and I'm just spit balling here, Trump could dictate terms to both sides and tell them they're going to take it and at least *act* like they like it.

Even if that were possible, its only a short term gain. A future war is inevitable. Putin wont bite.

 

[SonOfSun]

Merry Christmas, you fucking commies!

 

[spat]

I think your the one that doesn't understand

stand . Russia isnt just going to stand down while the US attacks them , They will launch a full scale nuclear response if they have to.



I wonder how that would be possible since thier air defenses can shoot down most of our missiles. They have the worlds best anti air systems , thats going to be a problem .


And thats why theres a war going on now. Because nobody could give a fuck .




LOL, and after Putin stops laughing , he will say go right ahead . Just dont look up .


Even if that were possible, its only a short term gain. A future war is inevitable. Putin wont bite.

If, as you say, a future war is inevitable, then we should get it over with.

I don't believe it is. I don't think the entire Russian government is suicidal.

As far as Russian Air defenses, you are missing the important point that even *if* they worked as well as the Russians say, there simply aren't enough.

The missiles that an S400 or S500 system uses are very expensive. Russia only has a few hundred total.

We have thousands of AG88 HAARMS alone. So, even if they shot down the first 500, they'll be out of ammo. What are they going to use for the next 500 ?

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Not sure in general how much of anything is real anymore on the internet, but was watching this on youtube the other day of western volunteers assaulting trenches in Ukraine. Crazy shit.

A complete hellscape.

WW1 with modern weapons and equipment

 

[RedBreast21]

Ukraine losses are at over 600k dead, unknown wounded. On the lighter side, 19 new clubs have opened up in Keiv. 19. A city at war. Really? I think I found the missing money? lol

Russia has being doing a great job in not allowing NATO to escalate. Beating Ukraine and NATO on the ground. Now as the administration nears its end, they are all out trying to start WW3. But the EU is broke. We are broke. Their and ours economies in shambles. The last ditch attempt was the killing that Russian General.
In doing so, Putin would now be cleared to level Kiev to the ground in an endless missile strike. And they could. Killing all the Western advisors, CIA, MI6 assets...ect. But Putin won't as this is the Western Globalists in their final moments of power. Trump coming into power on Jan 20th and they will try to burn the world down if need be. I still say Trump is closer to the grave than the WH. But we shall see.

 

[holdover]

If, as you say, a future war is inevitable, then we should get it over with.

I don't believe it is. I don't think the entire Russian government is suicidal.

As far as Russian Air defenses, you are missing the important point that even *if* they worked as well as the Russians say, there simply aren't enough.

The missiles that an S400 or S500 system uses are very expensive. Russia only has a few hundred total.

We have thousands of AG88 HAARMS alone. So, even if they shot down the first 500, they'll be out of ammo. What are they going to use for the next 500 ?

I dont think a future war is inevitable either. ( the context was if Russia was attacked)

Your half right about the AD missiles, I dont think Russia has enough top of line Missiles to cover everything . But as a NATO commander You cannot be assured that certain crucial targets are going to be destroyed or not . This is critical for an operation to succeed, targets ABC must be taken out before phase 2 of your operation can begin,Ie: Exploitation of the gap you created , or failed to create is going to have a major impact on your operation . You cannot assure your commander with confidence this can be done , Then there is electronic warfare and jamming which will also take a toll , Jamming GPS signals like thy did to the attacm missiles .

It could quickly turn into a real shitshow pretty qiuck , They have enough to fuck things up a bit.

Buy say your right, the US takes out 100% of Russian airfields and 100% of all AD missile sites in less than 48 hours or so. Russia would be facing certain defeat , You have put them into a corner. They now have nothing to lose , and no hope of winning . In the face of certain defeat they are going to give a final fuck you to the world and launch everything they have in their nuclear arsenal

Sun Tsu says never put your enemy on death ground. This is what you would be doing.

 

[holdover]

I still say Trump is closer to the grave than the WH. But we shall see.

You aint lieing there

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

I dont think a future war is inevitable either.

Your half right about the AD missiles, I dont think Russia has enough top of line Missiles to cover everything . But as a NATO commander You cannot be assured that certain crucial targets are going to be destroyed or not . This is critical for an operation to succeed, targets ABC must be taken out before phase 2 of your operation can begin,Ie: Exploitation of the gap you created , or failed to create is going to have a major impact on your operation . You cannot assure your commander with confidence this can be done , Then there is electronic warfare and jamming which will also take a toll , Jamming GPS signals like thy did to the attacm missiles .

It could quickly turn into a real shitshow pretty qiuck , They have enough to fuck things up a bit.

Buy say your right, the US takes out 100% of Russian airfields and 100% of all AD missile sites in less than 48 hours or so. Russia would be facing certain defeat , You have put them into a corner. They now have nothing to lose , and no hope of winning . In the face of certain defeat they are going to give a final fuck you to the world and launch everything they have in their nuclear arsenal

Sun Tsu says never put your enemy on death ground. This is what you would be doing.

You're right, Sun tsu said to always leave your enemy an exit (I forgot the exact quote I'm paraphrasing)

 

[holdover]

Yup.

it was death ground, thats what he called it . in a position where they are going to die so they fight like devils , but if you leave them an out, A back door , they are going to take it .

 

[spat]

I dont think a future war is inevitable either. ( the context was if Russia was attacked)

Your half right about the AD missiles, I dont think Russia has enough top of line Missiles to cover everything . But as a NATO commander You cannot be assured that certain crucial targets are going to be destroyed or not . This is critical for an operation to succeed, targets ABC must be taken out before phase 2 of your operation can begin,Ie: Exploitation of the gap you created , or failed to create is going to have a major impact on your operation . You cannot assure your commander with confidence this can be done , Then there is electronic warfare and jamming which will also take a toll , Jamming GPS signals like thy did to the attacm missiles .

It could quickly turn into a real shitshow pretty qiuck , They have enough to fuck things up a bit.

Buy say your right, the US takes out 100% of Russian airfields and 100% of all AD missile sites in less than 48 hours or so. Russia would be facing certain defeat , You have put them into a corner. They now have nothing to lose , and no hope of winning . In the face of certain defeat they are going to give a final fuck you to the world and launch everything they have in their nuclear arsenal

Sun Tsu says never put your enemy on death ground. This is what you would be doing.

So, by taking out all the Russians in Ukraine, Russia is going to see that as an existential crisis?

If they're really that unstable, then we need them gone ASAP.

If that's truly their mindset, then it's only a matter of time before they decide something non-negotiable is their next "existential threat".

Hell, they've already got people talking about Alaska using the same language they did to justify their Ukranian misadventure.

Or do you think we should give them Alaska too, "because nukes" ?

 

[RedBreast21]

Great conversations going on here, but lets put things in context as context really matters here when talking WW3.

The U.S. was engaged in a 20 year war with a grossly under educated and broke insurgency that wore PJ's, sandals, sporting 50+ year old weapons. No air force, no artillery, no armor, no secure comms, no satellites, no thermal, no night vision or any of the modern systems we brought to the fight. We lost. We left 80 billion in gear on the way out.

Russia has been fighting what WW3 will look like on the ground for almost three years. They have far more experience in what fire and maneuver of large ground forces needs to look like with the use of undetectable bird size drones. Their use of drones created Ukraine's use of drones but all you see is Ukraine's drones in endless tik tok BS. Propaganda.
Russia has been fighting that war with both feet and one arm tied. Their recent demonstration of hyper-sonic missiles with multiple conventional war heads that easily passed through all Western defense systems sent a very clear message as they could have been tactical battlefield nukes. We have no idea how many they have. Don't kid yourself. Russia could very well take out all Western air bases in one night with these missiles.

Our military is in shambles. Completely disorganized and the public will not accept 600k dead. Not going to happen.

The globalist will not blink sending us into WW3 if it means they lose control.

If you haven't heard that the SWIFT banking system now has BRICS competitor of which at least half the world will be using, you need to look into it. The Western banks will soon be blind to half the U.S. dollars moving globally. Unable to use the SWIFT system as leverage to reach a political goal. Meaning freezing assets, sanctions and other BS they have done for decades in order to control countries.

Currently the U.S. without Nukes is a paper tiger and the world knows it now.

But no one will be invading us.

 

[Mosinitis]

Not sure in general how much of anything is real anymore on the internet, but was watching this on youtube the other day of western volunteers assaulting trenches in Ukraine. Crazy shit.

Lawrence of Ukraine syndrome degenerates.

 

[spat]

Great conversations going on here, but lets put things in context as context really matters here when talking WW3.

The U.S. was engaged in a 20 year war with a grossly under educated and broke insurgency that wore PJ's, sandals, sporting 50+ year old weapons. No air force, no artillery, no armor, no secure comms, no satellites, no thermal, no night vision or any of the modern systems we brought to the fight. We lost. We left 80 billion in gear on the way out.

Russia has been fighting what WW3 will look like on the ground for almost three years. They have far more experience in what fire and maneuver of large ground forces needs to look like with the use of undetectable bird size drones. Their use of drones created Ukraine's use of drones but all you see is Ukraine's drones in endless tik tok BS. Propaganda.
Russia has been fighting that war with both feet and one arm tied. Their recent demonstration of hyper-sonic missiles with multiple conventional war heads that easily passed through all Western defense systems sent a very clear message as they could have been tactical battlefield nukes. We have no idea how many they have. Don't kid yourself. Russia could very well take out all Western air bases in one night with these missiles.

Our military is in shambles. Completely disorganized and the public will not accept 600k dead. Not going to happen.

The globalist will not blink sending us into WW3 if it means they lose control.

If you haven't heard that the SWIFT banking system now has BRICS competitor of which at least half the world will be using, you need to look into it. The Western banks will soon be blind to half the U.S. dollars moving globally. Unable to use the SWIFT system as leverage to reach a political goal. Meaning freezing assets, sanctions and other BS they have done for decades in order to control countries.

Currently the U.S. without Nukes is a paper tiger and the world knows it now.

But no one will be invading us.

The US hasn't lost a war since 1812.

We have gotten bored and gone home a couple times, but that's not the same as losing a war.

If the US fought Russia in a non nuclear conflict it would look like Desert Storm but way more sci-fi.

Russia can't beat Ukraine with a handful of NATO hand-me-downs.

A couple dozen F16s are touted as a "game changer".

Imagine what 1000 F35s would do.

A couple dozen HIMARS wreak havoc with the Russian forces even with half their capabilities forbidden.

Imagine what 500 unrestricted ones would do.

If we fought an unrestricted war WWII style Russia would be reduced to the stone age in a week *without* using nukes.

 

[holdover]

So, by taking out all the Russians in Ukraine, Russia is going to see that as an existential crisis?

If We attack the Russian military, Yeah, they are going to see it as a threat. I really dont know anyone that would disagree with that

If we fought an unrestricted war WWII style Russia would be reduced to the stone age in a week *without* using nukes.

Thats nonsense, There are so many logistical problems with that. We bombed Iraq and Vietnam into the stone age , it didnt work. You know why We couldn't defeat the insurgency's? , Because We never had the man power to secure it , thats why the insurgency thrived.

We didnt have the man power to secure Vietnam or Iraq, What do you think is going to Happen in Russia? At best the Us can marshall 2-3 million men. thats no where near what would be required in Russia


Thats whats holding us back from invading Iran, We cant secure it. We are a naval and airpower, Russia is a land power.

We have better planes, better tanks, Better training better leadership Better doctrine than the Russians Just like Germany had . Germany invaded Russia with 6 million men, 100 divisions , and Russia bled them white

 

[RedBreast21]

The US hasn't lost a war since 1812.

We have gotten bored and gone home a couple times, but that's not the same as losing a war.

If the US fought Russia in a non nuclear conflict it would look like Desert Storm but way more sci-fi.

Russia can't beat Ukraine with a handful of NATO hand-me-downs.

A couple dozen F16s are touted as a "game changer".

Imagine what 1000 F35s would do.

A couple dozen HIMARS wreak havoc with the Russian forces even with half their capabilities forbidden.

Imagine what 500 unrestricted ones would do.

If we fought an unrestricted war WWII style Russia would be reduced to the stone age in a week *without* using nukes.

I couldn't disagree more.

Russia isn't this helpless defensless country. Its tech is outstanding and our MIC is behind on a lot of it. Requesting more and more funding every quarter. Why? What do they know that you don't?

I'll further the discussion with these bullet points.

We are at war with Russia right now and have been for over two years. Sure we aren't going up against their ground forces under the same conditions as the Ukrainians, but they are fighting essentially without real support. How would we fair under that doctrine?

Their hands and feet tied as to not provoke NATO which is involved in a non NATO country and losing. Like I said Kiev is still standing. Why? lol

They have defeated every single piece of equipment we have supplied to Ukraine. As they said they would. Very confidently I might add.

I don't live in the world of hypothetical such a "a couple of f16's...HIMARS.....ect" lol No.

Have you seen the French and German reports of their depleted military assets and munitions stores because of Ukraine? Entire tank units without tanks or artillery. Greatly reduced stores of ammunition to operate what they have.

Remember, the EU was on the road to being 80% dependent of Russian energy with in 10 years of 2022. Their choice. So they clearly stopped considering Russia a military threat. lol

Britain says they are not ready to fight all out war. That's not me saying it, it's their govt.

1000 F35's have to take off from somewhere and that somewhere isn't in the EU and those bases would be hit first.

This Idea Russia can be defeated without massive casualties on our part is a fantasy IMHO. In a week? lol no.

We gained absolutely nothing in Iraq or Afghanistan. Telling the families of the dead American's that "we won" would accomplish what? Nothing. They would disagree with you as well. lol

If Afghanistan was victory, I want nothing to do with that type of victory. As it isn't a victory for the American people. MIC gained billions so I'm sure their happy.

If Russia decided to take the EU, it could and we wouldn't be there in force for over a year. If we could get a foot hold without a coilition like in WW1 and 3. We are 3000 miles away and carrier task forces would all be sunk in the Med.

You're also leaving out logistics. That's a huge part. Every weapon system we have relies on semiconductors and chips from where? Ah Taiwan and China. A weapon fired is not replaceable. See the report on the Tawain wars games conducted if China invade it. We don't win. Not me saying it, the DOD.

Without a robust manufacturing, supply chain and field support, you don't win large scale wars.


Check WW1 and WW2 time lines. It's takes time to start, conduct and finish a war of that magnitude. First and foremost, you need to rally Americans for it and that's a tall order right now. When you're trying to convince them the enemy 5000 miles away is dangerous to freedom. Have we heard that narrative before?


If we didn't lose in Afghanistan, then we certainly quit. You can decide which is worse.

Cheers

 

[spat]

If We attack the Russian military, Yeah, they are going to see it as a threat. I really dont know anyone that would disagree with that


Thats nonsense, There are so many logistical problems with that. We bombed Iraq and Vietnam into the stone age , it didnt work. You know why We couldn't defeat the insurgency's? , Because We never had the man power to secure it , thats why the insurgency thrived.

We didnt have the man power to secure Vietnam or Iraq, What do you think is going to Happen in Russia? At best the Us can marshall 2-3 million men. thats no where near what would be required in Russia


Thats whats holding us back from invading Iran, We cant secure it. We are a naval and airpower, Russia is a land power.

We have better planes, better tanks, Better training better leadership Better doctrine than the Russians Just like Germany had . Germany invaded Russia with 6 million men, 100 divisions , and Russia bled them white

Certainly they would see an attack as a threat. But you don't nuke everyone who is a threat. Would they see it as an *existential* threat ?

Why would they ?

As for Vietnam, etc, we *did* bomb them into the stone age quite easily.

Occupying territory in the face of a determined insurgency is very hard.

Eliminating your opponents ability to fight as anything but an insurgency is not. You just need to keep the diplomats and politicians well away from the decision making.

You are making the same mistake that Putin is. The Soviet Union bled Germany, dry. 2024 Russia is not the 1942 Soviet union.

We have no intention of occupying Russian territory. Why would anyone want Russian territory ? If we simply make the goal eliminating the Russian military in Ukraine, we don't need to even step foot in Russia.

Russia can't remotely threaten airbases in Germany, let alone the UK.

You *really* need to look at some hard data about troop strengths and economics of this.

The peacetime NATO military budget is larger than the entire Russian economy.

And NATO didn't buy 1000 F35s with the understanding that Russia would just blow up all the airbases LOL.

What do you think they would take those airbases out with, the Oreshniks? How many of those do you think they have ?

 

[spat]

I couldn't disagree more.

Russia isn't this helpless defensless country. Its tech is outstanding and our MIC is behind on a lot of it. Requesting more and more funding every quarter. Why? What do they know that you don't?

I'll further the discussion with these bullet points.

We are at war with Russia right now and have been for over two years. Sure we aren't going up against their ground forces under the same conditions as the Ukrainians, but they are fighting essentially without real support. How would we fair under that doctrine?

Their hands and feet tied as to not provoke NATO which is involved in a non NATO country and losing. Like I said Kiev is still standing. Why? lol

They have defeated every single piece of equipment we have supplied to Ukraine. As they said they would. Very confidently I might add.

I don't live in the world of hypothetical such a "a couple of f16's...HIMARS.....ect" lol No.

Have you seen the French and German reports of their depleted military assets and munitions stores because of Ukraine? Entire tank units without tanks or artillery. Greatly reduced stores of ammunition to operate what they have.

Remember, the EU was on the road to being 80% dependent of Russian energy with in 10 years of 2022. Their choice. So they clearly stopped considering Russia a military threat. lol

Britain says they are not ready to fight all out war. That's not me saying it, it's their govt.

1000 F35's have to take off from somewhere and that somewhere isn't in the EU and those bases would be hit first.

This Idea Russia can be defeated without massive casualties on our part is a fantasy IMHO. In a week? lol no.

We gained absolutely nothing in Iraq or Afghanistan. Telling the families of the dead American's that "we won" would accomplish what? Nothing. They would disagree with you as well. lol

If Afghanistan was victory, I want nothing to do with that type of victory. As it isn't a victory for the American people. MIC gained billions so I'm sure their happy.

If Russia decided to take the EU, it could and we wouldn't be there in force for over a year. If we could get a foot hold without a coilition like in WW1 and 3. We are 3000 miles away and carrier task forces would all be sunk in the Med.

You're also leaving out logistics. That's a huge part. Every weapon system we have relies on semiconductors and chips from where? Ah Taiwan and China. A weapon fired is not replaceable. See the report on the Tawain wars games conducted if China invade it. We don't win. Not me saying it, the DOD.

Without a robust manufacturing, supply chain and field support, you don't win large scale wars.


Check WW1 and WW2 time lines. It's takes time to start, conduct and finish a war of that magnitude. First and foremost, you need to rally Americans for it and that's a tall order right now. When you're trying to convince them the enemy 5000 miles away is dangerous to freedom. Have we heard that narrative before?


If we didn't lose in Afghanistan, then we certainly quit. You can decide which is worse.

Cheers

You are living in an absolute fantasy land.

A few dozen F16s and HIMARS aren't hypotheticals. Those are verifiable figures that we have shipped. IIRC it was 39 HIMARS and 10 F16s so far, with a few more due to be delivered in 2025.


Poland alone could probably curb stomp Russia at this point.

 

[holdover]

Certainly they would see an attack as a threat. But you don't nuke everyone who is a threat. Would they see it as an *existential* threat ?

Why would they ?

If Nato destroyed the Russian army in Ukraine, Russia would be completely defenseless , Russia is theirs for the taking , All they have to do is just drive to Moscow almost unopposed. The temptation would be to easy, the only thing to stop them is the ""good will"" of NATO .

They would find a reason , and do it , no doubt. they are not stupid . Nobody could stop them .

You are making the same mistake that Putin is. The Soviet Union bled Germany, dry. 2024 Russia is not the 1942 Soviet union.

Thats true, but they are not the push overs you make them out to be . If Russia didnt have the top of the line missile technology and a capable air force , 5 times the artillery we have , better electronic warfare than NATO, Id have to concede the fact. Take into consideration the terrain in the Ukraine also Mostly wide open farmlands , similar to WW1 , not a lot of cover. the rasputia in the spring and fall are a natural barrier to maneuver warfare.
And the winter, where there is 3-4 feet of snow on the ground. Ever try walking to the store in 3 feet of snow? Its a mother fucker, not to mention somebody shooting at you. And throw a 80 pound rucksack on while your at it Things slow down in the winter because its to difficult even for modern military's to make advancements. Even the Ukraine's were complaining that the 70 ton Abrams were constantly getting stuck .

Also factor in the military alliance with China and Iran NK, They would provide all the Military aid they needed and would commit to war if necessary .The point is, its no easy task ,

We have no intention of occupying Russian territory. Why would anyone want Russian territory ? If we simply make the goal eliminating the Russian military in Ukraine, we don't need to even step foot in Russia.

If you achive your goal, an opportunity opens up, After defeating their army and airforce in Ukraine , you think NATO is just going to let this gem slip away? They could just walk in the door and take it, but they wont? They would say something like the Putin regime must be removed to restore peace or some other bullshit and just do it . Your faith in human decency is impressive. Its a golden opportunity, and with that gem comes the ability to apply military pressure to China from the west. Thats the cherry man.

Russia can't remotely threaten airbases in Germany, let alone the UK.

What makes you think that?

You *really* need to look at some hard data about troop strengths and economics of this.

I dont argue with the economics except that Russia can produce things far cheaper than the west which helps to off set the economic advantage of the west

Troops strength? Uk has 80k troops right now, Germany isnt a whole lot better. Most of NATO is fairly weak because they didnt put the 2% GDP into it like they were supposed to. It would take them time to get them up to speed

The peacetime NATO military budget is larger than the entire Russian economy.

And NATO didn't buy 1000 F35s with the understanding that Russia would just blow up all the airbases LOL.

And you wonder why Russia feels threatened? Sometimes you have to look at the chessboard from the other side , you can get inside someones head , understand their situation from their perspective and anticipate possible ,probable responses.

You have just been promoted to chief of staff of the Russian army Putin asks for your recommendation on attacking NATO and invading Europe , what do you tell him?