Things are heating up in the Donbass

[holdover]

Certainly they would see an attack as a threat. But you don't nuke everyone who is a threat. Would they see it as an *existential* threat ?

Why would they ?

If Nato destroyed the Russian army in Ukraine, Russia would be completely defenseless , Russia is theirs for the taking , All they have to do is just drive to Moscow almost unopposed. The temptation would be to easy, the only thing to stop them is the ""good will"" of NATO .

They would find a reason , and do it , no doubt. they are not stupid . Nobody could stop them .

You are making the same mistake that Putin is. The Soviet Union bled Germany, dry. 2024 Russia is not the 1942 Soviet union.

Thats true, but they are not the push overs you make them out to be . If Russia didnt have the top of the line missile technology and a capable air force , 5 times the artillery we have , better electronic warfare than NATO, Id have to concede the fact. Take into consideration the terrain in the Ukraine also Mostly wide open farmlands , similar to WW1 , not a lot of cover. the rasputia in the spring and fall are a natural barrier to maneuver warfare.
And the winter, where there is 3-4 feet of snow on the ground. Ever try walking to the store in 3 feet of snow? Its a mother fucker, not to mention somebody shooting at you. And throw a 80 pound rucksack on while your at it Things slow down in the winter because its to difficult even for modern military's to make advancements. Even the Ukraine's were complaining that the 70 ton Abrams were constantly getting stuck .

Also factor in the military alliance with China and Iran NK, They would provide all the Military aid they needed and would commit to war if necessary .The point is, its no easy task ,

We have no intention of occupying Russian territory. Why would anyone want Russian territory ? If we simply make the goal eliminating the Russian military in Ukraine, we don't need to even step foot in Russia.

If you achive your goal, an opportunity opens up, After defeating their army and airforce in Ukraine , you think NATO is just going to let this gem slip away? They could just walk in the door and take it, but they wont? They would say something like the Putin regime must be removed to restore peace or some other bullshit and just do it . Your faith in human decency is impressive. Its a golden opportunity, and with that gem comes the ability to apply military pressure to China from the west. Thats the cherry man.

Russia can't remotely threaten airbases in Germany, let alone the UK.

What makes you think that?

You *really* need to look at some hard data about troop strengths and economics of this.

I dont argue with the economics except that Russia can produce things far cheaper than the west which helps to off set the economic advantage of the west

Troops strength? Uk has 80k troops right now, Germany isnt a whole lot better. Most of NATO is fairly weak because they didnt put the 2% GDP into it like they were supposed to. It would take them time to get them up to speed

The peacetime NATO military budget is larger than the entire Russian economy.

And NATO didn't buy 1000 F35s with the understanding that Russia would just blow up all the airbases LOL.

And you wonder why Russia feels threatened? Sometimes you have to look at the chessboard from the other side , you can get inside someones head , understand their situation from their perspective and anticipate possible ,probable responses.

You have just been promoted to chief of staff of the Russian army Putin asks for your recommendation on attacking NATO and invading Europe , what do you tell him?

 

[spat]

If Nato destroyed the Russian army in Ukraine, Russia would be completely defenseless , Russia is theirs for the taking , All they have to do is just drive to Moscow almost unopposed. The temptation would be to easy, the only thing to stop them is the ""good will"" of NATO .

They would find a reason , and do it , no doubt. they are not stupid . Nobody could stop them .

Thats true, but they are not the push overs you make them out to be . If Russia didnt have the top of the line missile technology and a capable air force , 5 times the artillery we have , better electronic warfare than NATO, Id have to concede the fact. Take into consideration the terrain in the Ukraine also Mostly wide open farmlands , similar to WW1 , not a lot of cover. the rasputia in the spring and fall are a natural barrier to maneuver warfare.
And the winter, where there is 3-4 feet of snow on the ground. Ever try walking to the store in 3 feet of snow? Its a mother fucker, not to mention somebody shooting at you. And throw a 80 pound rucksack on while your at it Things slow down in the winter because its to difficult even for modern military's to make advancements. Even the Ukraine's were complaining that the 70 ton Abrams were constantly getting stuck .

Also factor in the military alliance with China and Iran NK, They would provide all the Military aid they needed and would commit to war if necessary .The point is, its no easy task ,


If you achive your goal, an opportunity opens up, After defeating their army and airforce in Ukraine , you think NATO is just going to let this gem slip away? They could just walk in the door and take it, but they wont? They would say something like the Putin regime must be removed to restore peace or some other bullshit and just do it . Your faith in human decency is impressive. Its a golden opportunity, and with that gem comes the ability to apply military pressure to China from the west. Thats the cherry man.

What makes you think that?



I dont argue with the economics except that Russia can produce things far cheaper than the west which helps to off set the economic advantage of the west

Troops strength? Uk has 80k troops right now, Germany isnt a whole lot better. Most of NATO is fairly weak because they didnt put the 2% GDP into it like they were supposed to. It would take them time to get them up to speed



And you wonder why Russia feels threatened? Sometimes you have to look at the chessboard from the other side , you can get inside someones head , understand their situation from their perspective and anticipate possible ,probable responses.

You have just been promoted to chief of staff of the Russian army Putin asks for your recommendation on attacking NATO and invading Europe , what do you tell him?

There is nothing *now* keeping NATO from marching into Moscow *today*.

There hasn't been anything for 30 years, aside from the fact that nobody in their right mind would want to.

The only meaningful defense they have are their nukes. Destroying their troops in Ukraine would have no effect on those.

And no, the Ukrainian terrain and weather wouldn't make much difference.

Ukraine doesn't have air superiority, or a large enough Airforce to make a difference.

NATO would just blow up everything mechanized from the air and then let the Ukranians walk in to mop up the undefended infantry.


And I've got news for you about the state of Russia's air force, missile technology and electronic warfare.

The only way to describe their stuff as "top of the line" is to pretend that it's still 1980.

The Russian Airforce vs NATO would make the Iraqis in Desert Storm look like they put up a good fight.

With Allies like Iran and North Korea, who wouldn't be terrified LOL.

Pretty sure that conflict would just be the excuse the Isrealis need to eliminate the Iranian military and supporting industry.

You *have* seen how that fight goes right ?

 

[RedBreast21]

You are living in an absolute fantasy land.

A few dozen F16s and HIMARS aren't hypotheticals. Those are verifiable figures that we have shipped. IIRC it was 39 HIMARS and 10 F16s so far, with a few more due to be delivered in 2025.


Poland alone could probably curb stomp Russia at this point.

Fantasy land?

Yep you're correct.

Now for the easy question.

Why haven't we destroyed Russia when its as simple as you say?

 

[Bigfoot]

 

[holdover]

There is nothing *now* keeping NATO from marching into Moscow *today*.

There hasn't been anything for 30 years, aside from the fact that nobody in their right mind would want to.

The only meaningful defense they have are their nukes. Destroying their troops in Ukraine would have no effect on those.

And no, the Ukrainian terrain and weather wouldn't make much difference.

Ukraine doesn't have air superiority, or a large enough Airforce to make a difference.

NATO would just blow up everything mechanized from the air and then let the Ukranians walk in to mop up the undefended infantry.


And I've got news for you about the state of Russia's air force, missile technology and electronic warfare.

The only way to describe their stuff as "top of the line" is to pretend that it's still 1980.

The Russian Airforce vs NATO would make the Iraqis in Desert Storm look like they put up a good fight.

With Allies like Iran and North Korea, who wouldn't be terrified LOL.

Pretty sure that conflict would just be the excuse the Isrealis need to eliminate the Iranian military and supporting industry.

You *have* seen how that fight goes right ?

Your wrong about a lot of things here. even US generals know about the difficulty's of such an endeavor.

The only way to describe their stuff as "top of the line" is to pretend that it's still 1980.

Dude, they can shoot down artillery , Himars and attacms . Did you see what happened to Isreal and thier iron dome? they got smashed . US put their money into aircraft and Russia put thier money into anti air craft anti missles, We have better planes and they have better missles , thats not a hard thing to grasp .

Pretty sure that conflict would just be the excuse the Isrealis need to eliminate the Iranian military and supporting industry.

LOL come on man, the Israelis had ""the best"" military in the Mideast!!! They even said so! except their entire military failed on an epic level, Its been over 1 year and failed to clear Gaza, could go into Lebbanon more than a couple miles , had thier citys smashed by bottle rockets . They cant do jack shit against Iran except launch some missiles or go Nuclear . They expect us to do it for them Like we did in Iraq.

The Russian Airforce vs NATO would make the Iraqis in Desert Storm look like they put up a good fight.

LOL, it would look nothing like that at all. I know they are outclassed and all that but theres more to fighting than owning weapon systems In any case it doesnt matter because its not going to happen . If NATO attacks Russian forces and begins to defeat her , Its game over and see how well The American air defenses do against ICBM's

 

[spat]

Fantasy land?

Yep you're correct.

Now for the easy question.

Why haven't we destroyed Russia when its as simple as you say?

The same reason we haven't destroyed Liechtenstein.

We haven't tried.

We simply have no desire to do it.

 

[spat]

Your wrong about a lot of things here. even US generals know about the difficulty's of such an endeavor.



Dude, they can shoot down artillery , Himars and attacms . Did you see what happened to Isreal and thier iron dome? they got smashed . US put their money into aircraft and Russia put thier money into anti air craft anti missles, We have better planes and they have better missles , thats not a hard thing to grasp .


LOL come on man, the Israelis had ""the best"" military in the Mideast!!! They even said so! except their entire military failed on an epic level, Its been over 1 year and failed to clear Gaza, could go into Lebbanon more than a couple miles , had thier citys smashed by bottle rockets . They cant do jack shit against Iran except launch some missiles or go Nuclear . They expect us to do it for them Like we did in Iraq.

LOL, it would look nothing like that at all. I know they are outclassed and all that but theres more to fighting than owning weapon systems In any case it doesnt matter because its not going to happen . If NATO attacks Russian forces and begins to defeat her , Its game over and see how well The American air defenses do against ICBM's

Are you honestly trying to argue that the reason the IDF hasn't eliminated Hamas is anything other than a ridiculous aversion to civilian casualties?

They could have killed everything bigger than a cockroach in Gaza in 24 hours if they wanted.

You *really* need to read a bit more about the Isreal vs Iran stuff. I have no idea where you're getting your information, but it's laughably inaccurate.

Isreal's Iron Dome is the best air defense on the planet. Iran launches hundreds of missiles for every *one* that makes it through. That's not a failure, that's wildly successful.

When Isreal counter attacked Iran OTOH, they hit every target they aimed at with impunity.

 

[holdover]

Are you honestly trying to argue that the reason the IDF hasn't eliminated Hamas is anything other than a ridiculous aversion to civilian casualties?

""aversion to civilian casualties?"" LOL, YES. the reason they havent destroyed Hamas is because of an aversion to military casualties.

The cost in Isreali lives would be more than they are willing to pay. Its a stalingrad /Bakmut /Falluja dogfight

The UN's Human Rights Office has condemned the high number of civilians killed in the war in Gaza, saying its analysis shows close to 70% of verified victims over a six-month period were women and children.

The agency said the high number was largely due to Israel's use of weapons with wide-area effects in densely populated areas, although some deaths may have been the result of errant projectiles by Palestinian armed groups.

The report said it found "unprecedented" levels of international law violations, raising concerns about "war crimes and other possible atrocity crimes".

GENEVA (10 October 2024) – Israel has perpetrated a concerted policy to destroy Gaza’s healthcare system as part of a broader assault on Gaza, committing war crimes and the crime against humanity of extermination with relentless and deliberate attacks on medical personnel and facilities, the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel said in a new report today.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/10/un-commission-finds-war-crimes-and-crimes-against-humanity-israeli-attacks

You *really* need to read a bit more about the Isreal vs Iran stuff. I have no idea where you're getting your information, but it's laughably inaccurate.

Isreal's Iron Dome is the best air defense on the planet. Iran launches hundreds of missiles for every *one* that makes it through. That's not a failure, that's wildly successful.

The report said the data indicates "an apparent indifference to the death of civilians and the impact of the means and methods of warfare".

Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry, whose figures the UN sees as reliable, has reported a death toll of more than 43,300 people over the past 13 months. Many more bodies are believed to remain under the rubble of bombarded buildings.

UN Human Rights Chief Volker Türk said in a statement that "this unprecedented level of killing, and injury of civilians is a direct consequence of the failure to comply with fundamental principles of international humanitarian law".

Nearly 70% of Gaza war dead women and children - UN

A UN agency verified victims from a six-month period and said it found international law violations.

www.bbc.com

You *really* need to read a bit more about the Isreal vs Iran stuff. I have no idea where you're getting your information, but it's laughably inaccurate.

Isreal's Iron Dome is the best air defense on the planet. Iran launches hundreds of missiles for every *one* that makes it through. That's not a failure, that's wildly successful.

LOL WOW, Ok

When Isreal counter attacked Iran OTOH, they hit every target they aimed at with impunity.
With US help. It was our air tankers that gave them the ability. and most likely some of our aircraft also.

 

[holdover]

Let me ask you why Isreal has taken over Iran ?

 

[spat]

Let me ask you why Isreal has taken over Iran ?

Because they aren't neighbors ?

And it would provoke a war with all the Arab states that *are* neighbors ?

 

[spat]

""aversion to civilian casualties?"" LOL, YES. the reason they havent destroyed Hamas is because of an aversion to military casualties.

The cost in Isreali lives would be more than they are willing to pay. Its a stalingrad /Bakmut /Falluja dogfight

The UN's Human Rights Office has condemned the high number of civilians killed in the war in Gaza, saying its analysis shows close to 70% of verified victims over a six-month period were women and children.

The agency said the high number was largely due to Israel's use of weapons with wide-area effects in densely populated areas, although some deaths may have been the result of errant projectiles by Palestinian armed groups.

The report said it found "unprecedented" levels of international law violations, raising concerns about "war crimes and other possible atrocity crimes".

GENEVA (10 October 2024) – Israel has perpetrated a concerted policy to destroy Gaza’s healthcare system as part of a broader assault on Gaza, committing war crimes and the crime against humanity of extermination with relentless and deliberate attacks on medical personnel and facilities, the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel said in a new report today.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/10/un-commission-finds-war-crimes-and-crimes-against-humanity-israeli-attacks

The report said the data indicates "an apparent indifference to the death of civilians and the impact of the means and methods of warfare".

Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry, whose figures the UN sees as reliable, has reported a death toll of more than 43,300 people over the past 13 months. Many more bodies are believed to remain under the rubble of bombarded buildings.

UN Human Rights Chief Volker Türk said in a statement that "this unprecedented level of killing, and injury of civilians is a direct consequence of the failure to comply with fundamental principles of international humanitarian law".

Nearly 70% of Gaza war dead women and children - UN

A UN agency verified victims from a six-month period and said it found international law violations.

www.bbc.com

LOL WOW, Ok

When Isreal counter attacked Iran OTOH, they hit every target they aimed at with impunity.

With US help. It was our air tankers that gave them the ability. and most likely some of our aircraft also.

Isreal has their own tankers. They don't need us for aerial refueling.

 

[holdover]

Isreal has their own tankers. They don't need us for aerial refueling.

They might have a few but it was our tankers they used during the attack . Or our own aircraft were covertly used .

 

[holdover]

Because they aren't neighbors ?

And it would provoke a war with all the Arab states that *are* neighbors ?

Thats true, But neither side can take over the other. They can fuck each other up , thats about it

 

[spat]

Thats true, But neither side can take over the other. They can fuck each other up , thats about it

The Isrealis don't *want* any more Arab territory. They've got enough trouble with the little slivers of it they've got now.

They really just want Iran and their proxies to leave them alone.

Iran is really the main reason that the middle east has been such a disaster for the last few decades.

The rest of them aren't going to win any awards, but they've matured enough to understand that the conflict isn't good for business.

I think the Iranian government needs to keep all the conflicts going for internal political reasons, and they do.

 

[Mosinitis]

I guess he tried to clear the wrong trench.

 

[holdover]

Betcha he wont do that again

 

[holdover]

Iran is really the main reason that the middle east has been such a disaster for the last few decades.

I remember it a little different.

 

[spat]

I remember it a little different.

Who do you think is funding all the terrorist groups ?

Note, I said recent decades, so going back to the 80s for examples is out of scope for my comment.

 

[spat]

Russia can't even keep pressure on Ukraine for much longer, and people here think they can touch NATO LOL.

Russia's war machine is running on fumes as industry warns of bankruptcies and the Kremlin gets old tanks from movie studio | Fortune

Russia's largest movie studio donated about 50 tanks and armored vehicles from the 1950s that it had been using a props.

fortune.com

 

[Mosinitis]

It's being reported that Ukrainian F-16 was shot down while trying to launch missiles against Russian forces in Zaporozhye region. They started using them in offensive role just recently and it's nothing to brag about.
Enough with game changer bullshit already. Ukraine will lose this war. It's inevitable.

https://www.rt.com/russia/610032-russia-shot-down-f16/

 

[spat]

It's being reported that Ukrainian F-16 was shot down while trying to launch missiles against Russian forces in Zaporozhye region. They started using them in offensive role just recently and it's nothing to brag about.
Enough with game changer bullshit already. Ukraine will lose this war. It's inevitable.

https://www.rt.com/russia/610032-russia-shot-down-f16/

What do you think "Russia winning this war" looks like ?

Because I guarantee both sides are going to claim victory, no matter what the resolution looks like.

So predictions of victory are meaningless without specifics.

 

[Mosinitis]

What do you think "Russia winning this war" looks like ?

Because I guarantee both sides are going to claim victory, no matter what the resolution looks like.

So predictions of victory are meaningless without specifics.

There will be no end to the conflict without collapse of either Russian or Ukrainian government. Collapse of Russian government is not going to happen.
Russian Federation and newly emerged government of Ukraine, when that happens, will make a deal that restores Ukraine's neutrality and reverses all cultural, religious and political bans and policies that were put in place to make Ukraine a hostile platform against Russia.

Trump can claim credit for stopping the bloodshed and restoring peace in Europe. Perhaps even nominated or winning a Nobel peace price.

 

[spat]

There will be no end to the conflict without collapse of either Russian or Ukrainian government. Collapse of Russian government is not going to happen.
Russian Federation and newly emerged government of Ukraine, when that happens, will make a deal that restores Ukraine's neutrality and reverses all cultural, religious and political bans and policies that were put in place to make Ukraine a hostile platform against Russia.

Trump can claim credit for stopping the bloodshed and restoring peace in Europe. Perhaps even nominated or winning a Nobel peace price.

So, you think Zelensky has to be removed for Ukraine to lose ?

I don't see that happening. Pretty sure Zelensky will still be around to see Ukraine admitted into NATO before this is done.

I really don't see NATO accepting another Russian puppet state. If they really push it, they'll lose Belarus too.

 

[GOPerfect]

What price glory?

2,000 Daily Casualties: Russia's Military Is Paying an Awful Price in Ukraine War

The Russian invasion of Ukraine has reached its 1,000-day mark, with Moscow’s forces suffering over 700,000 casualties and significant losses in modern military equipment. While Russia has made territorial gains in places like Avdiivka and Vuhledar, these advances come at an extraordinarily high...

nationalinterest.org

Robin

This is all based upon opinion. Russia has released no figures/

 

[GOPerfect]

@Mosinitis

Please, if I am incorrect, tell me.....

As for the part of the conversation about the losses of Russia....

I had the honor on a couple of occasions, of working side by side with Russian Soldiers in the past.

Their attitudes and mindsets were very similar to those of the Klingon warriors in Star Trek. Dying for the Empire (Mother Russia) is the most honorable reason to die.

Most Russians can trace their DNA and ancestors to some of the greatest warriors and clans to ever exist. Their honor runs deep. While I am sure none wish death, they do not fear death the way that many in the Western world do.

 

[GOPerfect]

So, you think Zelensky has to be removed for Ukraine to lose ?

I don't see that happening. Pretty sure Zelensky will still be around to see Ukraine admitted into NATO before this is done.

I really don't see NATO accepting another Russian puppet state. If they really push it, they'll lose Belarus too.

The Ukraine will not be part of NATO. Nope.

 

[GOPerfect]

I wonder how many stupid people believe this????



December 8, 2024



KYIV — Since the start of Russia’s full-scale invasion in February 2022, Ukraine has lost 43,000 soldiers killed in action and 370,000 more were wounded, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said on Sunday, in Kyiv's first disclosure of total casualty figures in the the nearly three-year conflict.

 

[spat]

The Ukraine will not be part of NATO. Nope.

Pretty sure they will be before the end of Trump's term.

The only question is where the Russian/Ukrainian border will be drawn.

 

[Mosinitis]

@Mosinitis

Please, if I am incorrect, tell me.....

As for the part of the conversation about the losses of Russia....

I had the honor on a couple of occasions, of working side by side with Russian Soldiers in the past.

Their attitudes and mindsets were very similar to those of the Klingon warriors in Star Trek. Dying for the Empire (Mother Russia) is the most honorable reason to die.

Most Russians can trace their DNA and ancestors to some of the greatest warriors and clans to ever exist. Their honor runs deep. While I am sure none wish death, they do not fear death the way that many in the Western world do.

Not all Russians are willing to die for their country, but definately enough to make Russia uncunquerable to some of the best armies of Europe. Imperial, Soviet or post-Soviet; "no one dies twice and all are mortal" has been the moto of Russian Military.
Most of Ukrainians are members of the same ethnos and capable of the same personal sacrifice, but they are asked to die in defence of Europe from uncivilized herd of savages from the East. Not only this nerrative was borrowed from the Nazis, there is also a huge disconnect, since these savages (orks) are their grandfathers and ancestors.
Russians are rallied around their heritage and history, Ukranians are rallied around narratives and artificial history created for them by cool people in another hemisphere. Many are not buying it.

 

[Mosinitis]

So, you think Zelensky has to be removed for Ukraine to lose ?

I don't see that happening. Pretty sure Zelensky will still be around to see Ukraine admitted into NATO before this is done.

I really don't see NATO accepting another Russian puppet state. If they really push it, they'll lose Belarus too.

There are no Russia's puppet states. Russia's closest ally, Belarus, is only holding Putin's coat, while getting all sorts of economic benefits for it.

Zelensky destroyed his country by handing it over to people who use it as a battle field and its people as war slaves.