To pierce a plate or not to pierce a plate.......

[Marine Cpl]

That's hieroglyphics to me Meke. I don't know which one is the drop.

 

[meketrefe]

That's hieroglyphics to me Meke. I don't know which one is the drop.

This is not different than any other ballistics software but easier to read when you
put calibers together.

I stop printing the value as the bullet gets subsonic as it is not at good use to me that is why the blanks.

Ignore the blue headers.

Path of the bullet in Inches. This means if the bullet was to impact at the given ranges this is how high or low will hit.

Elevation in MOA (Minute of Angle ) Units. This is one of the standard units. I can give it to you in miliradians too if you want.

 

[Marine Cpl]

This is not different than any other ballistics software but easier to read when you
put calibers together.

I stop printing the value as the bullet gets subsonic as it is not at good use to me that is why the blanks.

Path of the bullet in Inches. This means if the bullet was to impact at the given ranges this is how high or low will hit.

Elevation in MOA (Minute of Angle ) Units. This is one of the standard units. I can give it to you in miliradians too if you want.

I don't know man. I'm a simple guy. All I need is grain, range, drop, and velocity. All those numbers on that chart make me want to shoot myself.

 

[UltraT]

What I really want to know is, what the frag thresholds of MK262 and BH 77gr TMK are. I've looked for it before and I can't remember if I ever found a good answer.

 

[meketrefe]

I don't know man. I'm a simple guy. All I need is grain, range, drop, and velocity. All those numbers on that chart make me want to shoot myself.

Grain: 77gr right? It is in 2 places.
Range: from 0 to 900 yards in 100 yards increments. It says Range(Yds)
Drop in inches. It says Drop(in) below at every 100 yards increments.
Velocity It says Speed(fps) at every 100 yards increments.
I even give you barrel length, ammo tested, zero, ballistic coefficient, Elevation in both MOA and Mils(military standard).

You asked for it and I gave you all information you are saying and more that is optional if you want to understand it.
Anything that I put is pretty self explanatory.



Ammo MK262 from black hills 77gr OTM
Firearm: 16" arp carbine.
Elevation: 555ft ASL
Temp: 20C
Wind est: 10mph Wind direction 90deg. full value.
Zero: 200 yards
G1: .362 (Between 3000 and 1700fps)
Adjusted retardation coefficient .30

 

[meketrefe]

What I really want to know is, what the frag thresholds of MK262 and BH 77gr TMK are. I've looked for it before and I can't remember if I ever found a good answer.

A very smart and practical question. Most OTM actually opened tip or not but match derived provide broad wounding and fragmentation
all the way to 1800 fps impact velocity. Some even 1600fps. This is the rule for maximum effect but in reality they can still be pretty
effective down to 1200 even subsonic but you want to avoid going through that subsonic range if you can avoided.

Also for fast killing like hunting most small calibers should be above 1800fps even 308 and many times specified by manufacturers
with premium bonded bullets. But in reality for hunting and killing with authority one should have a bullet strike with plenty of
energy and penetration above 2100fps. There are exceptions like larger calibers with hollow points but for most is a good
guarantee as there is no substitute for speed with enought grain and SD.
The speed simply assures the maxium effect of the bullets to activate and avoid pin hole wounding.

But Again for OTM like the 77gr and the tipical soft target I would say try to keep it above 1600fps although again there are other
variables. In military a round that goes through heavy clothing or a magazine will activate right away and although wounding might
be shallow it will be pretty broad and nasty. That is why the match bullets do so well.

For exampel the Hornady Amax is an amazing long range bullet because it activates at very low speeds. Of course if one is shooting
a small deer or goat at 800 yards one should use grain so even with the broad wounding there is enough mass to penetrate too.
The 308 wih a 168gr amax is great at that. At very long range it would be too much for a 80gr amax in 223.

But other thant the grain difference required for penetration the behaviour is very similar.

Just keep in mind not all the "match" bullets also behave like that. Like nosler created a match bullet called accubond long range.
These are amaizing flyers but they are too stout at impact so they are not consistent and might even pin wound, tumble or
what not.

I hope this helps.

 

[Marine Cpl]

No comprendo. It's still too much for my simple mind. No offense.

 

[UltraT]

A very smart and practical question. Most OTM actually opened tip or not but match derived provide broad wounding and fragmentation
all the way to 1800 fps impact velocity. Some even 1600fps. This is the rule for maximum effect but in reality they can still be pretty
effective down to 1200 even subsonic but you want to avoid going through that subsonic range if you can avoided.

Also for fast killing like hunting most small calibers should be above 1800fps even 308 and many times specified by manufacturers
with premium bonded bullets. But in reality for hunting and killing with authority one should have a bullet strike with plenty of
energy and penetration above 2100fps. There are exceptions like larger calibers with hollow points but for most is a good
guarantee as there is no substitute for speed with enought grain and SD.
The speed simply assures the maxium effect of the bullets to activate and avoid pin hole wounding.

But Again for OTM like the 77gr and the tipical soft target I would say try to keep it above 1600fps although again there are other
variables. In military a round that goes through heavy clothing or a magazine will activate right away and although wounding might
be shallow it will be pretty broad and nasty. That is why the match bullets do so well.

For exampel the Hornady Amax is an amazing long range bullet because it activates at very low speeds. Of course if one is shooting
a small deer or goat at 800 yards one should use grain so even with the broad wounding there is enough mass to penetrate too.
The 308 wih a 168gr amax is great at that. At very long range it would be too much for a 80gr amax in 223.

But other thant the grain difference required for penetration the behaviour is very similar.

Just keep in mind not all the "match" bullets also behave like that. Like nosler created a match bullet called accubond long range.
These are amaizing flyers but they are too stout at impact so they are not consistent and might even pin wound, tumble or
what not.

I hope this helps.

Wow thanks meketrefe, that's really helpful. 1800-1600fps is low!! I didn't know the performance was that impressive. Good to know.

 

[meketrefe]

What I really want to know is, what the frag thresholds of MK262 and BH 77gr TMK are. I've looked for it before and I can't remember if I ever found a good answer.

And by the way the proof the 80gr amax is a great long range is why they do so well with lets say coyote hunting at long range.
as far as 800 yards they show wounds like if you shot the coyote with a 115gr hp at the muzzle.
So it is something nobody want to be hit with as soon as one can shoot that far w/o missing too much.
BTW the 223 AI (Ackley improved) is a great way to push those with some extra precious fps but w/o spending more on brass and
just 1 or 2 extra grains of powder.

 

[meketrefe]

Wow thanks meketrefe, that's really helpful. 1800-1600fps is low!! I didn't know the performance was that impressive. Good to know.

No problem. Those are good questions. It is actually the most important thing about the shooting. Understanding the bullets and what they do when
they impact and at what velocity. The rest is just like the main man, a delivery method. What it matters is the mail, who cares what casing or rifle.
That is also why is so important starting with decent speeds and good bullets.

Now let me ask you this question, in the charts that I published can you read the range and speeds and drop?
I am asking because I want to know how to improve or is just will who needs a different much more simple view somehow?

 

[meketrefe]

No comprendo. It's still too much for my simple mind. No offense.

Will, Does your TV remote control look like this one? lol

 

[UltraT]

80gr amax

Are those for single loading, or will they fit in a mag?

No problem. Those are good questions. It is actually the most important thing about the shooting. Understanding the bullets and what they do when
they impact and at what velocity. The rest is just like the main man, a delivery method. What it matters is the mail, who cares what casing or rifle.
That is also why is so important starting with decent speeds and good bullets.

Now let me ask you this question, in the charts that I published can you read the range and speeds and drop?
I am asking because I want to know how to improve or is just will who needs a different much more simple view somehow?

Seems fine to me, only thing I'm not getting is the power factor. I don't know what that's based on, so it's just numbers to me. If you're looking for constructive criticisms, I guess you could remove the metric (cm, Mil), most people just look at the English units, but that's not really a big deal, just cleans it up a bit.

 

[Podmonkey]

@Willjr75, just pick a parameter and follow it across the table, then compare between the two weights. The 55gr is flatter out to about the 400 mark but starts falling off rapidly beyond that. 77gr has greater energy at all ranges and compared to the 55gr retains that energy very well. I am astounded that the 77gr TMK stays supersonic for so long! I hope IMI begins loading the 77gr 5.56 withbthe TMKs.
Oh and much thanks to @meketrefe for posting the tables. Pretty much confirmed why I'm basing my SHTF ammo stock around the 77gr rounds. They seem incredibly versatile.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Will, Does your TV remote control look like this one? lol

Don't be ridiculous. Why would I need that?

 

[Podmonkey]

Now, I've read the 77gr mk262 closely replicates the ballistics of the standard 147gr 7.62x51 M80 NATO load. Maybe @meketrefe could post a table for comparison?

 

[meketrefe]

Are those for single loading, or will they fit in a mag?

Yes those are loaded to fit the magazines. If you reload you can even make them longer and push them a bit faster if
your chamber has the required freebore. Current magazines like ASC, Pmag and PRI magazines will let you load up to 2.30-2.31 COAL.

This is a similar one in 80gr... 223 Remington 80gr. HPBT Match 20rds.

Seems fine to me, only thing I'm not getting is the power factor. I don't know what that's based on, so it's just numbers to me. If you're looking for constructive criticisms, I guess you could remove the metric (cm, Mil), most people just look at the English units, but that's not really a big deal, just cleans

it up a bit.

Power factor is momentum. It is a pretty standard unit of measure to understand the force upon impact and
pretty popular in shooting sports like IDPA, 3 gun shooting. It is different than Energy and IMO more relevant along with impact speed.

more info here...


Power factor (shooting sports) - Wikipedia

The power factor is based on the bullets momentum as it's moving through the air by measuring the bullet speed using a chronograph and measuring a similar bullet mass on a weighing scale, thereafter calculating the power factor by the formula:

p o w e r f a c t o r = m a s s ⋅ v e l o c ity




I have mils and cm as it is the military standard and also in tactical and practical matches that follow military standard.
Almost all my scopes are mil dot with mil turrets to be consistent.

 

[UltraT]

Yes those are loaded to fit the magazines. If you reload you can even make them longer and push them a bit faster if
your chamber has the required freebore. Current magazines like ASC, Pmag and PRI magazines will let you load up to 2.30-2.31 COAL.

This is a similar one in 80gr... 223 Remington 80gr. HPBT Match 20rds.




Power factor is momentum. It is a pretty standard unit of measure to understand the force upon impact and
pretty popular in shooting sports like IDPA, 3 gun shooting. It is different than Energy and IMO more relevant along with impact speed.

more info here...


Power factor (shooting sports) - Wikipedia

The power factor is based on the bullets momentum as it's moving through the air by measuring the bullet speed using a chronograph and measuring a similar bullet mass on a weighing scale, thereafter calculating the power factor by the formula:

p o w e r f a c t o r = m a s s ⋅ v e l o c ity




I have mils and cm as it is the military standard and also in tactical and practical matches that follow military standard.
Almost all my scopes are mil dot with mil turrets to be consistent.

Thanks.
So is there any difference between power factor and momentum? Why don't they just call it momentum, lol.

Then the chart looks fine to me.

 

[meketrefe]

Now, I've read the 77gr mk262 closely replicates the ballistics of the standard 147gr 7.62x51 M80 NATO load. Maybe @meketrefe could post a table for comparison?

Well yes and no. The M80 is optimized for barrels of 22" with 20" being the ideal minimum.
If you get down to 16" barrels like the 5.56 tested below you loose around 150-200fps in the 308 so the trajectory is not the same. It is a bit wastfull and why you have more modern ammo that runs better in shorter barrels for both 5.56 and 308.
If you shoot the AR with a 20-22" barrel then you will get and extra 100 to 150fps so
the 5.56 shoots flatter all other things being equal.
Even between M80 147gr ball brands there might be up to a 100fps difference.
Now, when you get to a certain speed above 2650fps and below 2900fps is not a huge difference
but there is a difference.
I think in practical terms we could say they both are easily predictable in terms of military standards and
that type of portfolio but there are some differences.


This is another great commercial one...

Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Rifle :: Choose by Caliber :: 5.56 NATO :: 5.56 NATO 75 gr BTHP Superformance® Match™

 

[meketrefe]

Thanks.
So is there any difference between power factor and momentum? Why don't they just call it momentum, lol.

Then the chart looks fine to me.

Good point. I think they perhaps saw it more appropriate withing the firearms jargon, who knows?

 

[meketrefe]

Also if you have a 1:6 twist upper you might want to try one day some 90gr sierras
Product - Sierra Bullets - The Bulletsmiths

Or if you have a 1:7 upper then the berger 80gr VLD. I use these and they are amazing.
22 Cal 80 Gr VLD Target

 

[meketrefe]

Thanks.
So is there any difference between power factor and momentum? Why don't they just call it momentum, lol.

Then the chart looks fine to me.

BTW did you learn anything else aside from trajectories specially when compared to other popular calibers?
I only use actual test data and not commercial BS and estimated muzzle values that mean nothing.

 

[UltraT]

BTW did you learn anything else aside from trajectories specially when compared to other popular calibers?
I only use actual test data and not commercial BS and estimated muzzle values that mean nothing.

And who doesn't love real data? I always take the word of a user with a chronograph over the numbers of a company marketing a product.

 

[meketrefe]

And who doesn't love real data? I always take the word of a user with a chronograph over the numbers of a company marketing a product.

Exactly. As some of you know I am a wildcatter so when I am developing a new cartrige there is a lot of load testing involved.
So many times I take this advantage to take a few uppers and other rifles and pistols to shoot commerical ammunition from
popular barrel lenghts and different firearms.

This is a good example: Look at the 55gr FMJ from PMC vs. the 55gr from Lake City....

Lake city muzzle velocity 3160avg from 16" DTI upper. PMC is 2832fps avg from the same upper. 328fps difference!!

Also if you look at the performance of the 77gr TMK and 80gr SMK or berger and even M855A1 service round.
People say ... oh the AK do so much better ..or the blackout is a much better option.

Well, compare to what? Because in the real world the 5.56 with modern loads does so much better than those others so not sure what the heck they are talking about.It gets annoying.

Nobody compares those to high performance 5.56 that btw, on top is more plentiful and cost effective.

But you know the marketing and sales man need to be busy too. I guess.

 

[Podmonkey]

Exactly. As some of you know I am a wildcatter so when I am developing a new cartrige there is a lot of load testing involved.
So many times I take this advantage to take a few uppers and other rifles and pistols to shoot commerical ammunition from
popular barrel lenghts and different firearms.

This is a good example: Look at the 55gr FMJ from PMC vs. the 55gr from Lake City....

Lake city muzzle velocity 3160avg from 16" DTI upper. PMC is 2832fps avg from the same upper. 328fps difference!!

Also if you look at the performance of the 77gr TMK and 80gr SMK or berger and even M855A1 service round.
People say ... oh the AK do so much better ..or the blackout is a much better option.

Well, compare to what? Because in the real world the 5.56 with modern loads does so much better than those others so not sure what the heck they are talking about.It gets annoying.

Nobody compares those to high performance 5.56 that btw, on top is more plentiful and cost effective.

But you know the marketing and sales man need to be busy too. I guess.

Who says the AK does better? The 7.62x39 is a ballistic turd. Supersonic 300 blk is even worse.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Who says the AK does better? The 7.62x39 is a ballistic turd. Supersonic 300 blk is even worse.

Many do. Not you.

 

[UltraT]

Who says the AK does better? The 7.62x39 is a ballistic turd. Supersonic 300 blk is even worse.

I like the terminal ballistics of those inside of 150 yards, but after that no thanks. I think there are many better choices overall.

 

[meketrefe]

Who says the AK does better? The 7.62x39 is a ballistic turd. Supersonic 300 blk is even worse.

1/2 of youtrouble and the other 1/2 of the interesness and the rest of the clueless population.
A lot of folks do not have a clue about ballistics and do not even bother to look it up.

 

[Marine Cpl]

1/2 of youtrouble and the other 1/2 of the interesness and the rest of the clueless population.
A lot of folks do not have a clue about ballistics and do not even bother to look it up.

Those guys exist here too. Some carry ammunition designed for 5 inch barrels in 3 inch barrels that don't even have the velocity to expand.

 

[Podmonkey]

I like the terminal ballistics of those inside of 150 yards, but after that no thanks. I think there are many better choices overall.

Yes, that is my point. Up close they have decent energy but that energy is lost far too quickly. Not to mention, contrary to popular belief, most 7.62x39 FMJ just ice picks through targets. I'm sure Rob Ski would disagree but I'd counter that a highly skilled shooter like him can make anything work alright.

 

[meketrefe]

I like the terminal ballistics of those inside of 150 yards, but after that no thanks. I think there are many better choices overall.

Maybe in WWII if you were a paratrooper and were given a M1 carbine that logic would make more sense.
But in today's world when one might go from 5 ft to 500 yards or beyond this theory doesn't make sense.
Even withing the 150 yards if we follow some pretty fundamental hunting directives these anemic rounds
do not meet the criteria.

Lets say a decent white tail estimated minimum.
-1000ft-lb of energy minimum.
-2100fps minimum impact speed for maximum effect.
-Over .2 sectional density.

When I say hunting, I mean ethical hunting. We know many calibers can do that but I am going with the
same directives advertised in the same magazines for years before all the marketing started.

Look for those estimated minimum values inside your ballistics charts.

I know, I know, youtube university says otherwise.