To pierce a plate or not to pierce a plate.......

[Podmonkey]

Maybe in WWII if you were a paratrooper and were given a M1 carbine that logic would make more sense.
But in today's world when one might go from 5 ft to 500 yards or beyond this theory doesn't make sense.
Even withing the 150 yards if we follow some pretty fundamental hunting directives these anemic rounds
do not meet the criteria.

Lets say a decent white tail estimated minimum.
-1000ft-lb of energy minimum.
-2100fps minimum impact speed for maximum effect.
-Over .2 sectional density.

When I say hunting, I mean ethical hunting. We know many calibers can do that but I am going with the
same directives advertised in the same magazines for years before all the marketing started.

Look for those estimated minimum values inside your ballistics charts.

I know, I know, youtube university says otherwise.

For my purposes all I care about is the efficent incapacitation of my targets. And that I can sock away large quantities of it.

 

[UltraT]

Maybe in WWII if you were a paratrooper and were given a M1 carbine that logic would make more sense.
But in today's world when one might go from 5 ft to 500 yards or beyond this theory doesn't make sense.
Even withing the 150 yards if we follow some pretty fundamental hunting directives these anemic rounds
do not meet the criteria.

Lets say a decent white tail estimated minimum.
-1000ft-lb of energy minimum.
-2100fps minimum impact speed for maximum effect.
-Over .2 sectional density.

When I say hunting, I mean ethical hunting. We know many calibers can do that but I am going with the
same directives advertised in the same magazines for years before all the marketing started.

Look for those estimated minimum values inside your ballistics charts.

I know, I know, youtube university says otherwise.

I agree. I think it makes an ok urban combat round, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

 

[meketrefe]

I agree. I think it makes an ok urban combat round, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

The +P 30 carbine will do the same. All this headache for nothing.

FULL POWER+ 30 M1 CARBINE

THE PROBLEM:

The typical current commercially manufactured 30 M1 Carbine ammo is running at or below 1,900 fps with 110gr. bullets, when fired in good old US military 30 M1 Carbines, with their 18 inch barrels. When the US issued this military cartridge in 1941, it was designed to propel a 110gr. bullet @ 1970 fps out of the carbine…..it is possible to exceed 2,100 fps with 110gr. bullets and still be within the SAAMI max. average pressure limits of 40,000 CUP.

We are not making this ammo to be cheap blaster/plinking ammo, although you can certainly do that if you like. This ammo is designed to be useful in defending ones’ life or in harvesting game up to the size of 200 lb. critters.

While three of these Buffalo Bore 30 M1 Carbine loads are giving close to 2,100 fps in my various 30 M1 Carbines, item 46D, which utilizes a heavier bullet is not, as can be seen below.

Item 46A—110gr Jacketed Soft Point @ 2100 fps

➤ 2122 fps - Inland/General Motors
➤ 2114 fps - Underwood
➤ 2105 fps - Exel
➤ 2107 fps - Spare parts carbine
➤ 1587 fps - Ruger Blackhawk, 7.5

Item 46B—110gr. FMJ-RN @ 2100 fps

➤ 2121 fps - Inland/General Motors
➤ 2116 fps- Underwood
➤ 2098 fps - Exel
➤ 2100 fps - Spare parts carbine
➤ 1638 fps - Ruger Blackhawk, 7.5

Item 46C—110gr. JHP @ 2100 fps

➤ Inland/ General Motors
➤ Underwood
➤ Exel
➤ Spare parts carbine
➤ Ruger Blackhawk, 7.5

Item 46D—125gr. Hard Cast Gas Check @ 2100 fps

➤ 1945 fps- Inland/General Motors
➤ 1949fps-Underwood
➤ 1935-Exel
➤ 1929fps-spare parts carbine
➤ 1641-Ruger Blackhawk, 7.5

 

[Podmonkey]

^I hadn't made the connection that the 300 BLK had reinvented the .30 Carbine till now. HA!

 

[meketrefe]

For my purposes all I care about is the efficent incapacitation of my targets. And that I can sock away large quantities of it.

Exactly. You have a round that is lighter and with more power at any range.
It shoots flatter and hits harder so why look for trouble.
And the 223 uses 223 magazines and bolts too! LOL

Those guys exist here too. Some carry ammunition designed for 5 inch barrels in 3 inch barrels that don't even have the velocity to expand.

The standard bullets do not work so they have created new bullets, some very expensive for subsonic and low speed impact.
The AK and specially the 6.8 does amazingly well in short barrels so when you compare those two still far superior other
that the very heavy supersonic that again they need to be specialized for subsonic impact.
Even the 5.56 in short 10 inch barrels comes ahead when using 70-90gr 223 bullets.
The service M855A1 works really well in 10 and 14 inch barrels. The 77gr TMK black hills from a 10 inch barrel also comes
ahead in energy, penetration, range.
The answer is very simple. Case capacity that the whisper/blackout and 30 carbine do not have.
Even the 7.62x39 when loaded with brass it has the capacity to take some pretty heavy loads and will launch a heavy 150gr
bullet at the same speed the blackout will send a 110gr one.
Actually the 7.62x39 with lapua brass can be pumped 10K or more from SAAMI and will put a 110gr bullet to 2500 to 2600fps
whereas the other will be around 2250 if you get lucky.
I think there are still some die sets that will send you the two expander buttons to reload the 7.62x39 with the standard
bullets or with 308 ones.
There are also barrels with hybrid chambers and rifling both ARs, AKs ...some bolt action too.

 

[Podmonkey]

Even the 7.62x39 when loaded with brass it has the capacity to take some pretty heavy loads and will launch a heavy 150gr

Case in point: I sometimes see the Hereters 154gr SP 7.62x39 in Cabelas. According to the box the muzzle velocity is just about the same as the lighter 122/123gr FMJs. I bet this would make an excellent woods or even SD round, provided it feeds well.
I think it would pair gangbusters with the CZ 527 Carbine. I really want one of thems.

 

[meketrefe]

Case in point: I sometimes see the Hereters 154gr SP 7.62x39 in Cabelas. According to the box the muzzle velocity is just about the same as the lighter 122/123gr FMJs. I bet this would make an excellent woods or even SD round, provided it feeds well.
I think it would pair gangbusters with the CZ 527 Carbine. I really want one of thems.

In general herters are soso (very dirty) but not sure about this one. The wolf 154gr is a pretty decent one for a steel cased ammo.
It shoudl be perfect for the SKS barrel or a nice 18" or 20" cz like you mentioned.
I guess the budget soft points work fairly well with the exception of some odd ones that do not expand (russian made I think)
For moderate range but to hunt with more autority. One at least gets the grain and sectional density even one has to keep
an eye on the speeds.
If one reloads with nice lapua brass one can do wonders with this round.

 

[Podmonkey]

In general herters are soso (very dirty) but not sure about this one. The wolf 154gr is a pretty decent one for a steel cased ammo.
It shoudl be perfect for the SKS barrel or a nice 18" or 20" cz like you mentioned.
I guess the budget soft points work fairly well with the exception of some odd ones that do not expand (russian made I think)
For moderate range but to hunt with more autority. One at least gets the grain and sectional density even one has to keep
an eye on the speeds.
If one reloads with nice lapua brass one can do wonders with this round.

I just primed 150 cases of the 35 gunner using lapua brass ready to take some 200gr speer bullets.
Those hit like a sledge hammer from the 16" and 10" AR uppers.

What would be the heaviest pill a bolt action 7.62x39 could push? Is it the 200gr? Does the 7.62x39 use a .311 bullet like the x54r?

 

[UltraT]

The +P 30 carbine will do the same. All this headache for nothing.

FULL POWER+ 30 M1 CARBINE

THE PROBLEM:

The typical current commercially manufactured 30 M1 Carbine ammo is running at or below 1,900 fps with 110gr. bullets, when fired in good old US military 30 M1 Carbines, with their 18 inch barrels. When the US issued this military cartridge in 1941, it was designed to propel a 110gr. bullet @ 1970 fps out of the carbine…..it is possible to exceed 2,100 fps with 110gr. bullets and still be within the SAAMI max. average pressure limits of 40,000 CUP.

We are not making this ammo to be cheap blaster/plinking ammo, although you can certainly do that if you like. This ammo is designed to be useful in defending ones’ life or in harvesting game up to the size of 200 lb. critters.

While three of these Buffalo Bore 30 M1 Carbine loads are giving close to 2,100 fps in my various 30 M1 Carbines, item 46D, which utilizes a heavier bullet is not, as can be seen below.

Item 46A—110gr Jacketed Soft Point @ 2100 fps

➤ 2122 fps - Inland/General Motors
➤ 2114 fps - Underwood
➤ 2105 fps - Exel
➤ 2107 fps - Spare parts carbine
➤ 1587 fps - Ruger Blackhawk, 7.5

Item 46B—110gr. FMJ-RN @ 2100 fps

➤ 2121 fps - Inland/General Motors
➤ 2116 fps- Underwood
➤ 2098 fps - Exel
➤ 2100 fps - Spare parts carbine
➤ 1638 fps - Ruger Blackhawk, 7.5

Item 46C—110gr. JHP @ 2100 fps

➤ Inland/ General Motors
➤ Underwood
➤ Exel
➤ Spare parts carbine
➤ Ruger Blackhawk, 7.5

Item 46D—125gr. Hard Cast Gas Check @ 2100 fps

➤ 1945 fps- Inland/General Motors
➤ 1949fps-Underwood
➤ 1935-Exel
➤ 1929fps-spare parts carbine
➤ 1641-Ruger Blackhawk, 7.5

Interesting, I didn't know that about .30 carbine. But couldn't you flip that and say the 7.62 is also useful in the same way the .30 carbine, but it also hits with slightly more momentum?

 

[meketrefe]

What would be the heaviest pill a bolt action 7.62x39 could push? Is it the 200gr? Does the 7.62x39 use a .311 bullet like the x54r?

The ideal is 120 to 150 gr. One can push a 180gr to 2000fps but I would not trade the grain
for the impact speed when a 150gr can be pushed to 2200fps from a 16" barrel.
It cannot push a 200gr at any decent speeds as it has 1/2 the powder of the 7.62x54R.
They all use .311-.310 bullets including the Tokarev pistol (7.62x25)
The nice thing is they all can take many of the .308 caliber bullets w/o loosing much performance nor accuracy.
Needless to say given the barrel has at least a 12 twist and proper rifling of course.

I think this is a good piece that Zak Smith wrote a few years ago...

7.62x39: Improving the Military Standard

Keep in mind that many reloading manuals and sources post loads for SAAMI pressure when in fact
modern brass like lapua, nosler, hornady, winchester can take CPI pressures up to 52K psi and more.
I am pushing the 35 gunner to 58k psi w/o any issues and the bolts and guns have not problem
taking the extra pressure.

So the nice thing about this cartrige is that even it was retired from service still popular for plinkin,
defense and all sorts of shooting and unlike the blackout it has enough case capacity to push some
pretty nice bullets to more decent speeds. IT can also be very accurate when reloaded with brass
and quality bullets. The CZ bolt action is capable of great accuracy. When you reload 308 bullets make
sure you get a set with the 308 mandrel / expander button and it doesn't come with it order one extra.

If one is going to choose an underbore cartrige the 7.62x39 makes a lot of sense and it gives
those nice options if one reloads. It fills a nice gap between the 30 carbine, 30 blackout and the
venerable 30-30. And since it is popular in AK and ARs with the latest generation bolts it makes
a great solution for a lot folks on a budget too.

I hope this helps.

 

[Podmonkey]

The ideal is 120 to 150 gr. One can push a 180gr to 2000fps but I would not trade the grain
for the impact speed when a 150gr can be pushed to 2200fps from a 16" barrel.
It cannot push a 200gr at any decent speeds as it has 1/2 the powder of the 7.62x54R.
They all use .311-.310 bullets including the Tokarev pistol (7.62x25)
The nice thing is they all can take many of the .308 caliber bullets w/o loosing much performance nor accuracy.
Needless to say given the barrel has at least a 12 twist and proper rifling of course.

I think this is a good piece that Zak Smith wrote a few years ago...

7.62x39: Improving the Military Standard

Keep in mind that many reloading manuals and sources post loads for SAAMI pressure when in fact
modern brass like lapua, nosler, hornady, winchester can take CPI pressures up to 52K psi and more.
I am pushing the 35 gunner to 58k psi w/o any issues and the bolts and guns have not problem
taking the extra pressure.

So the nice thing about this cartrige is that even it was retired from service still popular for plinkin,
defense and all sorts of shooting and unlike the blackout it has enough case capacity to push some
pretty nice bullets to more decent speeds. IT can also be very accurate when reloaded with brass
and quality bullets. The CZ bolt action is capable of great accuracy. When you reload 308 bullets make
sure you get a set with the 308 mandrel / expander button and it doesn't come with it order one extra.

If one is going to choose an underbore cartrige the 7.62x39 makes a lot of sense and it gives
those nice options if one reloads. It fills a nice gap between the 30 carbine, 30 blackout and the
venerable 30-30. And since it is popular in AK and ARs with the latest generation bolts it makes
a great solution for a lot folks on a budget too.

I hope this helps.

I was thinking for suppressed use. I think a supressed 527 carbine would be neat. And a hell of a lot cheaper than a 300 BLK AR. It is after just a novelty.

 

[meketrefe]

Interesting, I didn't know that about .30 carbine. But couldn't you flip that and say the 7.62 is also useful in the same way the .30 carbine, but it also hits with slightly more momentum?

The other calibers can also be loaded hotter. Not too different right?
One that many people overlook is the +P 357 magnum but this one with quality brass and loaded hot
it comes as a top choice too specially effective for short range because it is not just
the fact that has more punch but the 35 caliber wounds are pretty brutal compared to 30 caliber.
That is why I build the 35 gunner that is like a 357 maximum on steroids.

People who like bolt action or lever action will find this interesting and can also share with the
revolver. Buffalo bore makes some pretty bad ass ammo. I saw an article where a guide in
Alaska saved his life with a 9mm pistol using the buffalo bore outdoorsman ammo.

HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!

Look at these numbers. This is a freaking 357 magnum. look at the 158gr load speeds. These are actually tested
from those firearms.
One could reload and use the 140gr FTX that is faster and a more efficient withing the 150 yards too.
I bet they are using lil-gun for this.

 

[meketrefe]

I was thinking for suppressed use. I think a supressed 527 carbine would be neat. And a hell of a lot cheaper than a 300 BLK AR. It is after just a novelty.

I know. Suppressed will be nice but in NYS with the BS laws you know.
But one could do one in a long barrel and even add a Krinkov or linear compensator.
Between the long barrel and the compensator it will be a lot quieter.
Will get more speed too.

 

[Podmonkey]

I know. Suppressed will be nice but in NYS with the BS laws you know.
But one could do one in a long barrel and even add a Krinkov or linear compensator.
Between the long barrel and the compensator it will be a lot quieter.
Will get more speed too.

Not an issue in PA. I don't think. No the astronomical cost is the issue with suppressors for me.

 

[meketrefe]

The thing is when all the powder is burned in these type of calibers given one has 18" or 20" barrel
then a long linear compensator might work just fine.
It will crack but will be almost like a shotgun with club loads.

 

[Acer-m14]

I know. Suppressed will be nice but in NYS with the BS laws you know.
But one could do one in a long barrel and even add a Krinkov or linear compensator.
Between the long barrel and the compensator it will be a lot quieter.
Will get more speed too.

what about the new rifles now with supression built into the barrel itself , not a extra screw on part .. in NY is that still a no no or are we in a gray zone again?

 

[meketrefe]

what about the new rifles now with supression built into the barrel itself , not a extra screw on part .. in NY is that still a no no or are we in a gray zone again?

Supressor built in or not is a no-go.
But other silent solutions are not included in the law as far as I know.

Silent shotgun. Perfectly legal in NYS.

 

[meketrefe]

.358 150gr ER (Extended Range) RAPTOR

These should hi the 2800fps from the 16" AR15 upper.
Not possible for the M80 in the 308 winchester.

 

[meketrefe]

This is how it looks if I can hit the estimated 2800fps.

 

[Acer-m14]

dang it @meketrefe they even have BP stuff .. crap the 44cal is for inline and not my revolver ...way to long .. LOL ..
i do have a Wolf inline 50cal .. mmmmm how hot can it go LOL ..

 

[Acer-m14]

not a bad .. what is Path (in)

 

[meketrefe]

dang it @meketrefe they even have BP stuff .. crap the 44cal is for inline and not my revolver ...way to long .. LOL ..
i do have a Wolf inline 50cal .. mmmmm how hot can it go LOL ..

Which one exactly? give me the link.

 

[Acer-m14]

@meketrefe 44cal 210gr MZL Maximus-20ct

 

[meketrefe]

not a bad .. what is Path (in)

The line or path/trajectory of the bullet in inches as it passes through the different ranges.
Notices it goes up 1.87 inches at 100, 0 at 200 because it is zeroed at 200 and then drops 2.89 inches at 300.
All within 3moa to 300 yards that is amazing for a 16" upper.

 

[Acer-m14]

@meketrefe the pistol i have ..

 

[meketrefe]

@meketrefe 44cal 210gr MZL Maximus-20ct

It might work. do you need sabots?
I don't know the 50 cal . We could probably use the equivalent charge from a black powder cartrige to estimate.

 

[meketrefe]

@meketrefe the pistol i have .. View attachment 14440

Beautiful!
Can you use smokeless powder substitute something low pressure?
I hate dirty stuff.

 

[meketrefe]

gotta go. running out of gas. good night.

 

[Acer-m14]

@meketrefe in the pistol its only BP or Equiv .. i'm using .451 balls now with 25g FFFg real BP and the ball is down close to 1/4 inch from the face of the cylinder .. the Wolf inline i have m i have used 350gr and using 90g of rifle pryodex so the inline is no problem , but a sexy sabot in the pistol O.O

 

[meketrefe]

@meketrefe in the pistol its only BP or Equiv .. i'm using .451 balls now with 25g FFFg real BP and the ball is down close to 1/4 inch from the face of the cylinder .. the Wolf inline i have m i have used 350gr and using 90g of rifle pryodex so the inline is no problem , but a sexy sabot in the pistol O.O

I don't know what black powder propellant substitute one could use specially non corrosive.