Hey look at that, none of them penetrated both sides. I guess we all need bigger guns!
Cinder blocks. 9mm vs .40 vs .45
- Thread starter Marine Cpl
- Start date
Hey look at that, none of them penetrated both sides. I guess we all need bigger guns!
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
And that my friend is the definition of bias. Yes they all do the job, but all don't do the job under certain conditions.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
If that is your requirement, then you should.Hey look at that, none of them penetrated both sides. I guess we all need bigger guns!
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
I'd say the definition of trolling is more accurate.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
How so? Did I post a doctored video?
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I have evidence that it can but, it is a super secret load so if I show you I'd have to well hmmm err........
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
@meketrefe can attest to this. Do you ever wonder why the Secret Service and The Federal Air Marshall Service use the .357 Sig in their barrier rich environments?
It's because of speed. Speed penetrates hard objects. That is fact. The Sig round has almost double the velocity of the .45 ACP. Sometimes more depending on the loads and barrel lengths.
750 to 850 fps just doesn't cut it. Even less so from a 3 inch barrel on a subcompact.
It's because of speed. Speed penetrates hard objects. That is fact. The Sig round has almost double the velocity of the .45 ACP. Sometimes more depending on the loads and barrel lengths.
750 to 850 fps just doesn't cut it. Even less so from a 3 inch barrel on a subcompact.
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good thing I don't work for either of those agencies.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You could be on a bus with seats used as cover or in a Walmart parking lot with cars used as cover just like the employees of those 2 agencies.
Not Law Enforcement so, I am not going to be hunting.
<---------------is done playing hero.
This is another video showing what will keeps talking about, over and over and over and over.
Question Will, so you only carry a 9mm because it penetrates all different kinds of material?
From the video that I posted, the Fridge door, do you believe anyone would survive these hits with the 45 ACP? Honest question. My goal in a self defense situation is to stop the threat. Stop him alive or dead. Do you believe that a 45 would in fact stop the threat? As for all of these penetration "Tests" that you keep posting, wouldn't you be a bit concerned that the round you fired goes right through the bad guy and hits an innocent?
Years ago, a friend of mine was walking with his girl friend through the woods. A bear came out of nowhere, he pulled his 1911 out, fired once and killed the bear. Killed him dead with one round of 45 ACP. Seems like the round worked. Was that shot only a fluke?
Many people claim that handguns are useless for protection against bears. Numerous examples have shown that this is a false notion. Handguns may not be ideal as defensive weapons for bears, but they can be effective. In a defensive situation, you have to use what is available. In this case, a homeowner in Alaska used a .45 against a brown bear that was trying to get into his house on July 7th of this year. He and his son were in the home. He had scared off the animal with some warning shots just three hours before. adn.com picks up the story . . .
“I couldn’t believe that it came back,” he said.
Landess grabbed his .45 pistol, stepped out onto his upper deck, took aim and fired seven rounds toward the bear’s vitals. He said the bear “got crazy” and ran about 50 feet before it collapsed and died.
Landess said while he has seen bears around his property, living in close proximity to the Kenai National Wildlife Refuge, he had never experienced one this aggressive. He said he didn’t have any food around his house that could have attracted the bear but did have an empty cooler on his porch that the bear tossed around along with some chairs. He said this was the first big game he’d ever killed.
“I’m not a hunter; I’m a fisherman,” he said. “It wasn’t something I wanted to do. I wanted to scare him off.”
A comment by Landess’ son on ADN.com gives us some more details: The pistol was a Hi-Point .45, and while seven shots were fired, only one shot hit the bear.
Yes that was my dad and he shot it with a highpoint 45. Shot at it 7 times but only one shot hit in the directed area. One threw the lung dropped it.
This appears to be another case of a bear that became too acclimated to humans. It associated humans with food, and so it became a serious risk to human life.
Use of firearms as a defensive tool against animals is fairly common in the United States, though it is more common against an aggressive raccoon or a rattlesnake than against bears. No one knows exactly how many times a year guns are used defensively against animals. My personal observation: in rural areas, defensive uses against animals, whether to defend life or property, are more common than defensive uses against people.
.45 vs 9-foot Brown Bear - The Truth About Guns
“I couldn’t believe that it came back,” he said.
Landess grabbed his .45 pistol, stepped out onto his upper deck, took aim and fired seven rounds toward the bear’s vitals. He said the bear “got crazy” and ran about 50 feet before it collapsed and died.
Landess said while he has seen bears around his property, living in close proximity to the Kenai National Wildlife Refuge, he had never experienced one this aggressive. He said he didn’t have any food around his house that could have attracted the bear but did have an empty cooler on his porch that the bear tossed around along with some chairs. He said this was the first big game he’d ever killed.
“I’m not a hunter; I’m a fisherman,” he said. “It wasn’t something I wanted to do. I wanted to scare him off.”
A comment by Landess’ son on ADN.com gives us some more details: The pistol was a Hi-Point .45, and while seven shots were fired, only one shot hit the bear.
Yes that was my dad and he shot it with a highpoint 45. Shot at it 7 times but only one shot hit in the directed area. One threw the lung dropped it.
This appears to be another case of a bear that became too acclimated to humans. It associated humans with food, and so it became a serious risk to human life.
Use of firearms as a defensive tool against animals is fairly common in the United States, though it is more common against an aggressive raccoon or a rattlesnake than against bears. No one knows exactly how many times a year guns are used defensively against animals. My personal observation: in rural areas, defensive uses against animals, whether to defend life or property, are more common than defensive uses against people.
.45 vs 9-foot Brown Bear - The Truth About Guns
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
If it were up to me, I'd. carry a Sig but it isn't cost effective or available.
As far as overpenetration goes, no. I am not worried. A miss is an overpenetrator.
As far as the fridge goes, not all fridges are created equal. Today it could be a fridge and tomorrow it could be a garbage can.
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
I'm calling a fluke. Since nothing except the 9mm and 45-70 penetrated that door than we should only carry the 9 or 45-70(with a scope).
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You could be fighting for your life. Law enforcement has nothing to do with the situation.
ArmedCorgi
.475 A&M Magnum
@Willjr75, would you be able to make a video of your own findings? Maybe use some of the barriers you mention, or what would mostlikely be encountered in a defensive situation.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Soft tissue vs hard.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Can't. I'm gone 13 hours a day from home due to work. Trust me, I'd love nothing more than to do this.
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Defensive situation, 99% of the time will be soft tissue! I am defending against a person. I know, hell, he could be hiding behind a wall, kitchen pots and pans and other things of the such. Most of the time, defensive shoots are going to be person to person.
I'm more than fine with the 45.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That's great. That works for you. Not so for me and others in today's day and age with mass shootings. I'd rather have greater capacity and penetrating power in a CCW sized handgun.
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meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Everything is a trade-off of some sort no matter what you do.
I think heavy balls are great for very short pistols since you cannot develop speed then send them grain.
In a mid or full frame pistol with modern pistols and ammo that can take really high pressures speed is something
very desirable.
The US secret service use the 357 SIG and 5.7FN because they want speed of action, accuracy and flat shooting
that can go thorough heavy auto glass, doors and certain body armor and barriers w/o deflection.
For this you need speed. Solid and bonded projectiles while lighter they pierce though those objects.40 cal, 45, 38, 38 will fail.
One cannot justify a heavy slow moving cartridge in those kind of tactics and situations.
more firepower (Round count) and penetration no matter what, and they do not miss much and that is
why the tiny 5.7 is so lethal too.
These are not new directives and we knew about them for many decades since the prohibition and why
the 357 magnum was born. A time when a lot of fights were done from car to car or in the streets using
cars for cover. The 45 and 38 were popular but they wanted something that will not stop with all that metal and glass.
The 357 is nothing but a 357 magnum compressed into a shorter 10mm case running at high pressure
modern firearms can take.
1911s are beautiful pistols and getting hit with a 45 is like being hit with a balling ball but in the modern
scenarios of high power rifles, cars, kevlar vests anyone efficient at those tactics is going to bet in firepower (high
round count) and fast moving cartridges.
Of course there is specialty ammo in .40 and .45 that uses light for caliber stout projectiles for increased penetration that
in the end is an attempt to do what other 35 calibers do more naturally and higher round count due to their
smaller section.
No matter how purist one is, the military style directives and tactics are being implemented more and
more every day no matter what force.
What our personal preferences of favorite pet cartridges or pistols are do not change the fact that these
things are evolving every day.
Also if one invests into a 357 SIG it doesn't mean one has to shoot the hottest ammo nor expect advanced
tactics but if one gets premium ammo one will effectively have a 357magnum with double or more round
count in civilized states at least.
A semi compact SIG or glock pistol becomes a dessert eagle x square + lighter and easier to shoot.
think about it for a second.
I think heavy balls are great for very short pistols since you cannot develop speed then send them grain.
In a mid or full frame pistol with modern pistols and ammo that can take really high pressures speed is something
very desirable.
The US secret service use the 357 SIG and 5.7FN because they want speed of action, accuracy and flat shooting
that can go thorough heavy auto glass, doors and certain body armor and barriers w/o deflection.
For this you need speed. Solid and bonded projectiles while lighter they pierce though those objects.40 cal, 45, 38, 38 will fail.
One cannot justify a heavy slow moving cartridge in those kind of tactics and situations.
more firepower (Round count) and penetration no matter what, and they do not miss much and that is
why the tiny 5.7 is so lethal too.
These are not new directives and we knew about them for many decades since the prohibition and why
the 357 magnum was born. A time when a lot of fights were done from car to car or in the streets using
cars for cover. The 45 and 38 were popular but they wanted something that will not stop with all that metal and glass.
The 357 is nothing but a 357 magnum compressed into a shorter 10mm case running at high pressure
modern firearms can take.
1911s are beautiful pistols and getting hit with a 45 is like being hit with a balling ball but in the modern
scenarios of high power rifles, cars, kevlar vests anyone efficient at those tactics is going to bet in firepower (high
round count) and fast moving cartridges.
Of course there is specialty ammo in .40 and .45 that uses light for caliber stout projectiles for increased penetration that
in the end is an attempt to do what other 35 calibers do more naturally and higher round count due to their
smaller section.
No matter how purist one is, the military style directives and tactics are being implemented more and
more every day no matter what force.
What our personal preferences of favorite pet cartridges or pistols are do not change the fact that these
things are evolving every day.
Also if one invests into a 357 SIG it doesn't mean one has to shoot the hottest ammo nor expect advanced
tactics but if one gets premium ammo one will effectively have a 357magnum with double or more round
count in civilized states at least.
A semi compact SIG or glock pistol becomes a dessert eagle x square + lighter and easier to shoot.
think about it for a second.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
These are old discussioens and lots of passion go into them so I tend to stay away.
But after shootouts, forensics have found 40 cal rounds sitting in the back sit of cars that is barely making it through the windshield.
As you probably know this is one of the hardest barriers to overcome with modern cars and glass and the shallow angles.
In the rifle world, this is something addressed by the current M855A1 service round with the arrowhead hardened tip
where the previous green tip could show deflection in sports cars.
the deflection was induced by the very small air gap between the jacket and the steel tip.
Now with the tip outside the piercing is instant and then the core follows.
Just to illustrate how important speed is but also not messing up the fundamental design.
...with all that said a bonded Winchester like the 64pp is a pretty versatile and decent penetrator for a patrol duty rifle in 5.56.
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ArmedCorgi
.475 A&M Magnum
I'm just glad my Glock 23 can do 9mm, .40 and .357sig with basically just a barrel swap. It's actually why I bought it.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
BTW it is the same in the rifle world .....
Here we see how the whisper/blackout fails in hot rolled steel but the 6.8spc punches right through.
The 7.62x39 would also fail yet the service 5.56 would punch through (not tested here though).
This why speed is so important along with flatter trajectories and better accuracy.
Here we see how the whisper/blackout fails in hot rolled steel but the 6.8spc punches right through.
The 7.62x39 would also fail yet the service 5.56 would punch through (not tested here though).
This why speed is so important along with flatter trajectories and better accuracy.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
That is one reason I like glocks too, even easier to swap than an AR15 and w/o much investment too.
The only thing is when going from lets say 9mm to 40 one should also swap the ejector plunger if
the intention is to carry as they are different due to the different bolt face.
But only for carry worthy. for range testing is fine. 40 and 357 sig do not have this issue as they
share the same base for the case. A different story is the spring with the full power 357 SIG
but springs are also very affordable.
ArmedCorgi
.475 A&M Magnum
I didn't know about the ejector plunger going from .40 to 9mm. As for the spring, I'm assuming you are referring to the guide rod/recoil spring, which I've open to swap the oem one for the heavier tungsten aftermarket spring/guide rod.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I made a picture a while back to show this. The 9mm (right) has a slight bend so it can hit the smaller diameter case in the precise spot.
For practice at the range they might work well but othewise for carry worthy I would do it right. In some counties one has to add the
new barrel /caliber to the permit too.
the spring is needed with some full power loads in 357SIG. They are a hand full and becomes quite snappy. I use the wilson compat harder
spring and rod that comes with a little rubber buffer. It works great and it was only a few bucks. But unless you shoot buffalo bore, underwood
or original austrian service ammo or some other at full power, specially 135 grains, you don't need it I think. Like I said the glock becomes a "357 mag desert
eagle" but better but with all the commotion that comes with those loads.
ArmedCorgi
.475 A&M Magnum
I wonder if the 9mm ejector plunger would work with the .40 and .357sig? Or would it be hitting too close tot he primer and not eject right?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
That is the concern. They are bent for a reason. Glock already did the research for you.
Most rounds will eject but some might fall right back into the chamber and hit your face.
Again not a huge thing for the range practice but not ideal for carry worthy reliability typical of the glock.
just my honest opinion.